13 Years Later... Are Limited Continues Still Some BS or What?

Patrick said:

I just don't think that making absolute statements about something as varied as game design is useful.

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Co-signed, and not just because I can't help but see the premise of this thread as an indictment of my favourite genre.

"I'm mad because I ran out of continues" is a totally valid way to feel, and I've definitely felt that way myself from time to time, but I can't get behind "limited continues are inherently bullshit". Clearly they're a design choice that appeals to some of us under certain contexts.

I have run out of continues more times than I can remember, and I have stopped playing games after I have run out of continues. Sometimes (frequently, especially as a kid), I would almost immediately restart the game and try again. Sometimes I would take a break from the game and try it again later. Sometimes I would give up and stop.

Importantly, though, I don't think I ever stopped playing a game because of the continues. Instead, the definitive "end of the run/game" message being out of continues sent me gave me a chance to reflect on the game and whether or not I was enjoying it. If I walked away from the game as a kid, it was because I was not enjoying it. Nowadays as an adult with lots of obligations, I may actually stop playing a fun game because simply I don't have enough time, but even then I don't think I'd consider the limited continues the factor that made me stop; I would have been making the time-value assessment about my gameplay either way.

In this sense, I think I may actually like limited continues, because they force self reflection. Don't hold me to that if I lose in a frustrating way, though!

I am fine with achievements as an optional feature. There are plenty of games I played where I learned more about the games because of the achievement lists, or when I got a laugh out of a hidden achievement. I don't know that I've ever played a game to 100% it on achievements, though.

Bulgakov said:

In this sense, I think I may actually like limited continues, because they force self reflection.

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Yes, absolutely. I need a fail state to enjoy any game that is ostensibly a test of skill. Infinite lives just leads to attrition and therefore boredom, for me.

madhair60 said:

Yes, absolutely. I need a fail state to enjoy any game that is ostensibly a test of skill. Infinite lives just leads to attrition and therefore boredom, for me.

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JBear said:

"I'm mad because I ran out of continues" is a totally valid way to feel, and I've definitely felt that way myself from time to time, but I can't get behind "limited continues are inherently bullshit". Clearly they're a design choice that appeals to some of us under certain contexts.

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Yeah. It's clearly a "it depends on the game" thing.

The only caveat I would add to this is that at the end of the day they're just video games, so even if I enjoy limited continues in certain circumstances I'm also in favor of adding a Super Easy Mode or Debug Mode or Assist Mode or a Konami Code or a Cheat Mode or a Story Mode or whatever is appropriate along those lines to every game. (I think "if it's an effortless option to turn on infinite lives, I'll use it and it makes me like the game less" is a valid complaint, but also I think you can get around this through how it's implemented. A secret code feels very different and signals something very different than a toggle that sets Infinite Lives to On at the top of the options menu, even if they do the same thing.)

Patrick said:

Every decision in designing a game is an actual game design decision.

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Disagree. That's like saying "every decision in editing a movie is an actual cinematic decision." I guess by the strict dictionary definition, yes, that's correct because things literally are what things are, but New Line hacking 20 minutes out of a Jackie Chan movie for the US because they want to get more showings in, without regard to the original director or editor's input is hardly something to respect. The same goes for, say, Tecmo US telling Masato Kato to remove passwords and unlimited continues from Ninja Gaiden III. I mean, yeah, that technically affects the design of the game in the strictest sense of the terms, but it was a decision made by business people, not game designers.

JBear said:

Co-signed, and not just because I can't help but see the premise of this thread as an indictment of my favourite genre.

"I'm mad because I ran out of continues" is a totally valid way to feel, and I've definitely felt that way myself from time to time, but I can't get behind "limited continues are inherently bullshit". Clearly they're a design choice that appeals to some of us under certain contexts.

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My favorite game of all-time also has limited continues! It also has a code for as many lives as almost anyone would need to just brute force their way through the game. And I guess at the heart of my argument is the idea that "if me brute forcing my way through your game is the only way I'll finish it, and I don't want to go back and learn how to not do that, I don't think your game is very good."

Hacking 20 minutes out of a movie will have a big effect on how the viewer experiences the movie. So yeah, that’s a cinematic decision too.

And your example about Ninja Gaiden III supports my point. The issue is not that limited continues are bad, it’s that the game was not designed with them in mind.

I've just seen your Revenge of Shinobi video and immediately thought of this thread! And yep, it's the game that triggered this discussion.

In that game, limited continues are complete bullshit. It's one of the best games of its type ever made, but damn it's hard and limited continues just seem mean.

I'm pretty firmly in the camp of "no one should ever even consider having limited continues in anything" and will go one further and say "if you are designing a game of the sort where this sort of conversation is even viable you are obligated to include a nice level select screen where should I opt to return to this game in the future I can jump right in and skip whatever I want to skip."