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Teach me about CRPGs

estragon

estragon

So, it looks like there is a community driven Icewind Dale 2 Enhanced Edition mod project that appears to be in a beta testing stage. Parts of look cool and/or could easily be ignored if you don't like them (recruitable NPCs, new spells and items). Other parts definitely reflect some of the common criticisms that I completely disagree with, personally:

The final level of Dragon's Eye, Lord Pyros' Domain, is now a single boss fight rather than a series of dialog chores.
Click to expand...
Many areas have received the same treatment, simplifying lengthy fetch quests and in some cases offering shortcuts for major plotlines. The Ice Temple and Dragon's Eye in particular are dramatically streamlined.
Click to expand...

This gives me the impression that this community mod is being driven by people who are trying too hard to "fix" the parts of the game that I thought were experimental/ambitious and make it unique among the (non-Planescape) Infinity Engine games. Offering alternate solutions seems fine and in the spirit of the game, but turning a lengthy dialogue driven quest into a single boss fight seems extremely misguided.

They do say that "IWD2:EE is fully customizable and the player can tweak their install to taste." So whether or not this disagreement matters at all will depend on how true that really is and how much of a hassle it is pick and choose various elements of the mod.

Also, who knows when/if it will ever be finished and get a release that doesn't require you to directly contact someone involved in the mod team, although apparently it is playable beginning to end in some state currently.


Kazin said:
That was fascinating, thanks. Can't believe how often you hear about the source code getting lost for games. I'll look into getting Icewind Dale 2 eventually. I do intend on playing the Baldur's Gate games, Icewind Dale 1, and Planescape: Torment first, though, which will hopefully set me up for a reasonable experience difficulty-wise with ID2.
Click to expand...

If you (or anyone else) are interested in the history of CRPGs, I'd definitely recommend the episodes of the Designer Notes podcast interviewing Josh Sawyer.

Part 1

Part 2
 
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Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Ugh, they better let you do a "vanilla" version of the game if you want to, because - and I know I have zero context for this having not played the game, but whatever - I wouldn't characterize "dialog chores" as being worse than a fight. Unique dialogue driven by character builds/charisma/charm/whatever is the point of these games imo! When I get around to Fallout 1 and/or 2, I want to force the final boss to kill himself via dialogue, for example!
 
estragon

estragon

Looking more closely at the thread, the streamlined dungeons/quests are all listed as discrete components:

8. Faster Targos
9. Faster Horde Fortress
10. Faster Ice Temple
11. Faster Wandering Village
12. Faster Black Raven Monastery
13. Faster Underdark
14. Faster Dragon's Eye and Lord Pyros' Domain
15. Faster Severed Hand
16. Alternative Dragon's Eye
Click to expand...

So, assuming the install process is simple, it seems like this might be the best way to play IWD2 if/once they finish.
 
Patrick

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
Kazin said:
Well, I do actually own Morrowind on PC already, but I always intended to play that, even if I hadn't realized before making this thread it was a CRPG lol. The CRPG book made me interested in Arena and Daggerfall, games that looked, uh, not great from what little I saw of them before

I remember when Morrowind came out on the original Xbox - all my Xbox friends said it was incredible, so I've always been curious about it. Just haven't gotten around to it, I guess.
Click to expand...
I can confirm, Morrowind is great. I used a single mod that got rid of some terrible flying enemies, then used a few tricks early on to get a bunch of stuff leveled up quickly (like a way to move really fast). So it wasn't 100% accurate to release version or whatever, but it was definitely worth it to avoid a bit of tedium. The actual game part, the story and exploring the island are fantastic. One of my all time favorite RPG experiences.
 
FelixSH

FelixSH

(He/Him)
The final level of Dragon's Eye, Lord Pyros' Domain, is now a single boss fight rather than a series of dialog chores.
Click to expand...
Many areas have received the same treatment, simplifying lengthy fetch quests and in some cases offering shortcuts for major plotlines. The Ice Temple and Dragon's Eye in particular are dramatically streamlined.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Yeah, that sounds like the complete opposite of what I want from these games. I would love this genre way more, if they all offered playthroughs were you don't have to kill a single person/monster, and could talk yourself out of everything. "Dialog chores" is a term I just can't comprehend, dialog is great.

So, these two plotlins, the Ice Temple and the Dragon's Eye, are they well written? Because this, too, sounds like something I would find frustrating to not have there. I actually never considered Icewind Dale, because it seemed, unlike Baldurs Gate, like a pure dungeon crawler, where you wouldn't meet many NPCs to do quests, and where the focus is purely on fighting. So, I guess there is still a lot of fighting, but would you think I would get something out of this, with what I wrote here, Estragon? Maybe as a benchmark, I played through Baldurs Gate, the first one, some years ago, didn't care much for the combat but enjoyed exploring and doing quests (that said, after what I heard about the game, I was disappointed, the quests felt pretty standard, but I think the one that people really like is BG II, anyway).

Kazin said:
Unique dialogue driven by character builds/charisma/charm/whatever is the point of these games imo!
Click to expand...

Basically this, yeah. Every fight I can avoid, by going through at least decently written dialogue, is a good fight.
 
Mogri

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
Falselogic said:
Anyone here played Temple of Elemental Evil? It was made by Troika and I know it used a new 3d engine, was the first game to use 3.5 Edition rules. AND it's the only game set in the Greyhawk setting (which I believe is the original D&D setting?)
Click to expand...
Yeah. I thought it was pretty good, although I never finished it.
 
YangusKhan

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
Falselogic said:
Anyone here played Temple of Elemental Evil? It was made by Troika and I know it used a new 3d engine, was the first game to use 3.5 Edition rules. AND it's the only game set in the Greyhawk setting (which I believe is the original D&D setting?)
Click to expand...
This is not a helpful response, but I did technically play this. I do not remember much of anything about it, because I was a teenager and did not really understand this genre of RPG at the time, so all I distinctly remember is fighting some spiders? I liked the way it looked though!
 
estragon

estragon

Temple of Elemental Evil is high on my list the next time I want to play a game in that general style, but I hear that's a game you really should play with whatever the most popular bug fix mod is. Whenever I consider it, I keep being unable to get over the inertia of looking up the process to do that and playing something else instead. (It's probably not actually that complicated...)

FelixSH said:
Maybe as a benchmark, I played through Baldurs Gate, the first one, some years ago, didn't care much for the combat but enjoyed exploring and doing quests (that said, after what I heard about the game, I was disappointed, the quests felt pretty standard, but I think the one that people really like is BG II, anyway).
Click to expand...

It's kind of hard to say. There is still a lot of combat in ID2. One of the big complaints is that the encounters are too hard compared to other Infinity Engine games. (This wasn't my experience at all, but it's a common perspective.) Also, it's relatively linear compared to the Baldur's Gate games. The best open world type exploration is probably in the BG games, and yes BG2 is better than the first game. It's just that ID2 is also more responsive to your party members' classes and races in NPC interactions, puzzle solving, and dungeons. And also they make a point for the non-combat skills added because of Third Edition rules to be useful. Relative to the BG games, ID2 is basically a linear progression from village to dungeon to village, so there's less free explanation. But along the way your characters can be more than killing machines, although they also definitely have to be killing machines.

I can't recommend it without reservations to anyone who doesn't basically enjoy Infinity Engine combat, unfortunately.

The only real non-combat option is Planescape, I think.
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Well, that was an extremely satisfying couple of sessions of Wasteland 2. Spoilers for the second half of the game (the Hollywood area, specifically):

Hollywood is lovely little intricately designed puzzlebox I slowly picked at over the past few sessions. You learn about the factions there - an obviously corrupt (and likely really bad drug-pushing that Hollywood as a whole hates) chamber of commerce which effectively runs Hollywood with a casino and several brothels, and a fanatical religious sect with an absolutely warped version of Christianity who forbid drinking, smoking, non-marital sex, prostitution, gambling, etc. by punishment of death (okay, so maybe this isn't too far off the ideal version of the world many Christians secretly want IRL lol). You can see where there'd be friction, right? But, of course, things get complicated as you slowly peel the onion away from both sides of this conflict. You learn that the sadistic torturer who runs basically the church's intelligence division has been sneaking off to be pleasured by a dominatrix in Hollywood, but before you learn that, you learn the leader of the church has been abusing his position to basically have sex with anyone he wants, up to and including murdering one of his followers so he could then marry his wife. The torturer guy wants the church leader out because he's not following his own teachings (ironic considering what he gets up to on weekends), and it turns out the dominatrix has a bit of a crush on this guy, not knowing that he's high up in the church that has been routinely coming in to Hollywood and murdering her neighbors and customers. Anyway, these two are the linchpin for patching things up between these two factions - you help the church guy take down the leader by proving to his new wife that he murdered he dead husband to get to her, and then do a whole bunch of quests to discover that the leader of the Hollywood chamber of commerce has been not only pushing drugs which she had explicitly said she was trying to rid the city of, but also working with the robots who seem to be the big bad of the game since they basically want to destroy/assimilate what's left of humanity. Elegantly, to take the chamber of commerce lady down, you help out other people in town who are also members of the chamber of commerce, who then vote her out resulting in her running to her robot friends allowing you to chase her down and kill her. Then a peace treaty is signed and you get a giant pile of cash and experience.

That paragraph was long, and it really only scratches the surface. You go through multiple dungeons, make trips to other cities, help literally dozens of different people, use a bunch of different skills (I was lockpicking, fixing toasters, passing dialogue checks by either being a smart ass or intimidating people, etc.) and there are still some sidequests in the area I haven't finished. So far, it's easily my favorite area of the game, and I've really enjoyed most of my time with Wasteland 2 even before getting to this area.

EDIT: Apparently, completing that quest nets you an achievement, as it fucking should lol
 
FelixSH

FelixSH

(He/Him)
estragon said:
It's kind of hard to say. There is still a lot of combat in ID2. One of the big complaints is that the encounters are too hard compared to other Infinity Engine games. (This wasn't my experience at all, but it's a common perspective.) Also, it's relatively linear compared to the Baldur's Gate games. The best open world type exploration is probably in the BG games, and yes BG2 is better than the first game. It's just that ID2 is also more responsive to your party members' classes and races in NPC interactions, puzzle solving, and dungeons. And also they make a point for the non-combat skills added because of Third Edition rules to be useful. Relative to the BG games, ID2 is basically a linear progression from village to dungeon to village, so there's less free explanation. But along the way your characters can be more than killing machines, although they also definitely have to be killing machines.

I can't recommend it without reservations to anyone who doesn't basically enjoy Infinity Engine combat, unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Thanks, that tells me enough to know that it is likely not for me, though I am curious. Might, at one point, try out Icewind Dale 1, and see if I can get into the combat more.

estragon said:
The only real non-combat option is Planescape, I think.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I played that and...I know that it is really well done, and should be perfect for me, but I really didn't like the grim setting. Also, too urban, I prefer to be outside of cities. But that's really just me, the game is really well done.

I do like Fallout 1 and 2, though. Combat feels way simpler there (not a ton of spells, especially status stuff, that JRPGs conditioned me to ignore), you can get overpowered pretty easily and you can solve a lot of problems by talking. Wasn't able to beat the second, though, because I couldn't find a way to not have a grueling fight against the final boss, who demolished me. One day, I'll get back to that. But they are certainly playable in a way that reduces combat enough, for me.
 
YangusKhan

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
The Bethesda launcher was pointless. Just another attempt by a company trying to divest itself from relying on Steam. Look how well that worked!
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Beat Wasteland 2 today. I was surprised how well I did - I did quite well with the back half of the game, only failing to do a thing I wanted to do in the first half, specifically the Rail Nomads camp was pretty much a failure. Otherwise, I was largely able to do what I wanted. I'm sure I missed a good chunk of game - I was sort of surprised when (endgame spoilers) I beat an area and had a helicopter waiting for me to take me back to Arizona. Though, I figured once I went there, it'd be the endgame, and it was. It wasn't all that difficult, though the AI controlled party members are morons and nearly got themselves killed a couple times (and there was no way I was going to let General Vargas die, for example). Setting off the nuke without a timer and having to sacrifice an AI controlled partner was a bit predictable, but it kind of felt to me like a sly dig at Fallout 3, though I'm probably reading too much in to it. I had to sacrifice Kerkabah (or kill my entire party and Kerkabah included), which kind of sucked because I thought I might be able to rig up a timer, but maybe I didn't have the requisite skill to do that (mechanical repair, I assume).

Fantastic game, I highly recommend it if you like these sorts of games. It appears to have a New Game + mode, allowing you to take your characters into a new game with stats intact (I think), which is pretty neat, because then you could do some stuff differently. No idea if it carries over items/weapons/ammo, though. I'll probably play the game again at some point and do that.

I'm thinking I'll play Wasteland 3 next, since I'm super familiar with the game design of 2, so I imagine 3 won't be super different. After that, probably either Fallout or Elder Scrolls Arena if there's a way to control it well on Steam Deck (currently, the mouse sensitivity is way too high, and I don't know how to change it).
 
Falselogic

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
Latest leaks out of Bethesda says InXile is working on Remasters of Fallout 1 and 2 as well as earlier Elder Scrolls games (I don't know which though, hopefully all of them?)
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Oh god dang. I hope they announce it soon, I'd love to play a Fallout remaster...!
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Slightly annoyed with Wasteland 3, if only because now there are a lot more cutscenes where you can't advance through the dialogue faster than the actors can speak it, where there were hardly any in Wasteland 2 (as always with any video game for me, I'd rather just read text than wait forever for the voice actors to get through their dialogue, thanks). There are some UI improvements that I like - being able to see what the accuracy of an attack would be at a new location before moving your character is pretty great, and a shared inventory is nice, if a bit strange coming off Wasteland 2 where it's kind of a big part of your character build (you get more inventory space in 2 if you have more Strength. As far as I can tell so far, you have unlimited inventory in 3, though there do seem to be limits - I couldn't use a med pack in battle, which I guess means battle is much, much more dangerous now).

There are a lot of little differences that will take some getting used to, but I can tell already I'm going to have a good time with this one. I've heard of a group called the Gippers who "worship an old world president" (gee, I wonder which one? lol) and already the NPCs are a bit more memorable than the early ones in Wasteland 2.
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Avernum: Escape from the Pit seems cool. I wish I could zoom in though, I'm probably going to walk past a ton of items laying on the ground that I can't see lol
 
John

John

(he/him)
I had the opposite problem playing the iPad version of Avernum & Avadon. I was spoiled by being able to zoom way out in the Infinity Engine remasters, and felt it was limited by having a fixed view.

For the Avernum games, stuff on the ground rarely matters. You get candles and useless swords, some things you can sell, but if something’s critical they telegraph it. Podiums are good to look out for, they give you both lore and stat increases.
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Ooh, good to know, thanks! I was sort of squinting looking at the screen looking for stuff in that first area, and I did find a few potions and such, but mostly rocks, which I think are worthless. Maybe they can be used for crafting or something, dunno.
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Okay, yeah, Avernum is simple fun and quite addicting. I like it a lot.
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
I like how fast the characters move - and I don't even have them set to move instantly. It's briskly paced for a turn based little dungeon crawly sidequesty thing. It's good!
 
estragon

estragon

FelixSH said:
Might, at one point, try out Icewind Dale 1, and see if I can get into the combat more.
Click to expand...

I imagine you probably know this and are just open to giving it a try anyway, but just in case I want to say that this is the most combat focused of all of these games. That being said, maybe that might be more palatable in a game that has no pretense at being anything other than a dungeon crawl. It also helps that your party is entirely user generated, so you have more control over what that combat is going to be like. Personally, I enjoyed Icewind Dale 1 in a similar way to Etrian Odyssey, but it really is almost all combat. (There's a bunch of town business at the very start, but that's not representative of the full game... )
 
MetManMas

MetManMas

Me and My Bestie
(He, him)
Been playing Planescape: Torment on my phone again recently. Modern day scumminess of the head writer/designer aside, I keep coming back to this game because there's so much that appeals to me here.

It's like, I know Baldur's Gate gets better eventually, but first impressions count for a lot and waking up in a mortuary with a snarky floating skull companion with multiple dialogue options at your disposal and detailed descriptions for every random zombie makes for a much better opening than doing errands for some people before going off with your father figure who might as well have a death clock counting down over his head.

Also I'm impressed by how much more professional the voice acting (what little is there) is compared to Baldur's Gate's "We obviously got a bunch of cartoon VAs and had them shout stock phrases like Pokémon" cast. And it's not just that the cast has people who've worked in live action stuff, I mean even the ones who've worked far more in cartoons like Rob Paulsen and Charlie Adler sound like they're on a much higher tier than usual.
 
estragon

estragon

MetManMas said:
Baldur's Gate's "We obviously got a bunch of cartoon VAs and had them shout stock phrases like Pokémon" cast
Click to expand...

A really funny thing for me in discussions of Baldur's Gate 3 is when people complain that Larian have ruined it with their "cringe humor." And to be honest I don't like Larian's humor much either, but I can't imagine any conception of cringe humor that includes Larian's writing but excludes the Baldur's Gate games. One of the most popular characters has a "miniature giant space hamster," and another makes references to the "Ch-Ch-Ch-Chia!" ads that were all over 90s TV.

As an aside, I wouldn't place blame on this for the cast. If you look at the cast and their credits, it's kind of ridiculous how high level it is. The problem is the direction and writing. (This gets better in BG2, mostly... I think the scenario writing is better in BG1, but the character writing mostly improves in BG2.)
 
MetManMas

MetManMas

Me and My Bestie
(He, him)
estragon said:
As an aside, I wouldn't place blame on this for the cast. If you look at the cast and their credits, it's kind of ridiculous how high level it is. The problem is the direction and writing.
Click to expand...
No doubt about it. Game's got a solid cast of prolific voice actors, it's just the material and direction they have to work with that's the problem.
 
Kazin

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Alright, so it's Morrowind time! I've installed OpenMW (which was surprisingly easy on Steam Deck - enable Luxtorpeda and it just downloads OpenMW for you) for stuff like widescreen and whatnot, but I have some basic questions about gameplay:

1. I'm playing as a warrior, or at least a melee fighter anyway, and the combat seems weird to me. I'm a Redguard which means I'm supposedly proficient with longswords, but I seem to be missing a lot - am I doing something wrong? I have "always do best attack" or whatever enabled in the menu and I'm currently equipped with a longsword, so I'm wondering if I just don't "get" how to do combat.

2. The only thing I've really known about Morrowind all these years is "jump everywhere". What is the purpose of that? I realize my Athletics skill levels up, but what does that enable me to do? Does it just decrease the amount of stamina I use when running/jumping?

3. How do I damage ghosts lol

I'll probably have more questions but that's all I have for the moment. I'm already intrigued by the game, I like all the giant mushrooms.
 
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