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Infinitely Inscrutable? Let's Play Legacy of the Wizard!

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  #61  
Old 10-18-2008, 11:51 PM
Alixsar Alixsar is offline
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Originally Posted by Netbrian View Post


Remember this? This is nothing.



This is what hell really looks like.
How can you even play this game? From everything I've seen so far, this game seems less like a fun game and more like sadomasochism.
  #62  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:01 AM
Mightyblue Mightyblue is offline
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Man, once you start to go back and play old NES games, you really are surprised about how many of them are that horrible.
  #63  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:08 AM
Brickroad Brickroad is offline
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Legacy of the Wizard is one of those games you can only really enjoy once you know absolutely everything about it, kind of like Persona 3.
  #64  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:23 AM
ringworm ringworm is offline
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Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
Legacy of the Wizard is one of those games you can only really enjoy once you know absolutely everything about it, kind of like Persona 3.
:|
  #65  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:32 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alixsar View Post
How can you even play this game? From everything I've seen so far, this game seems less like a fun game and more like sadomasochism.
Where is it written that sadomasochism cannot be fun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyBlue
Man, once you start to go back and play old NES games, you really are surprised about how many of them are that horrible.[/I].
I don't think awful is quite the right term for what this game does. The game is neutron-star level dense, and cruel as hell, but the designers definitely had a vision of what they were going for, and they did a very good job realizing it. There aren't many games that mix up the variety and non-linear game design that LotW does. It was also a very early game that encouraged multiple paths through the game, and always has multiple ways of getting items (this isn't featured in this LP, but you can buy all of the key items in shops, allowing for a multitude of different routes). You can even vary which characters play through which sections if you want.

This isn't even getting into the aesthetics of the game. The dungeon design makes wonderful use of the technology they had available, and the designers did a very good job of making different areas feel distinct (in fact, I would say that the artistic aspect of the level design is some of the best on the NES). I plan to devote an entire post to the soundtrack, but suffice to say it too is one of the best of the era.

tl;dr -- Legacy of the Wizard is an awful game, but in a different sense of the word.
  #66  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:33 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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Previously on Let’s Play Legacy of the Wizard, we did some block puzzles.

One of the more tired video game jokes is laughing at shopkeepers operating in the middle of dungeons. Yes, yes, who would possibly buy from them? It really wasn’t all that funny twenty five years ago either.



Even so, this takes things a bit far.



I continue upward, cleverly avoiding the fake bricks strategically placed to send me back to hell.



The red boulders are a variation on the theme of “moveable blocks.” Note that in a game that has been pretty careful about this so far, you can get irrevocably stuck here pretty easily if you aren’t careful.



The last time we saw beautiful cat girls, they marked a dead end. I think we’re safe this time – Falcom would never let us skip more block puzzles.
  #67  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:35 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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In another throwback to more civilized age, the abstract blob enemies return.



This level has interesting enemy design, and good use of color, but I don’t have much to say about it. Anything left to remark on block puzzles needs to be carefully rationed.



See? Note that the Christmas tree monsters return in a big way, and will stay with us throughout the rest of the dungeon. Their like drop bears, but with pointier ends.



I’m pretty certain all of these blocks weren’t strictly necessary.

The goal of the next part of the puzzle is “block riding”. Xemn can actually use blocks as a mode of transportation. Unfortunately, it’s easy to fall off your block, and it’s back to the ladder to nowhere for you. Don't even ask how the physics of this work.

Speaking of physics, powerups bounce.
  #68  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:36 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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I make it past, but the horrors don’t end. I honestly don’t know why they keep repeating the “row of blocks that each need to be moved one space left to progress” motif. It isn’t even really a puzzle at that point. It isn’t even easy to make a mistake and forced to restart, which is really uncharacteristic for this game.



The horrors continue. I like the knight “guarding” the inn. It’s quite a nice little touch.



The mattock is a key item, and we’ll be seeing a lot more of it later on. Let’s just say that once you know what it does, it just about makes up for the death march necessary to get it.

And had it stopped there, it just might have been. But no, the non-stop Xemn dance mix continues.
  #69  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:37 AM
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I would call it "awful" in the biblical sense.
  #70  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:37 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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Things are looking up! I am quite impressed by the Gameboy aesthetic for this zone. Note that for a wonderful moment, we can progress simply by walking!



Xemn’s dungeon has been mercifully locked door free, and I feel the designers felt they had to make up for it here. The chest contains another “super scroll”, which is squandered here.

What’s most amusing about this area is that there is no reward whatsoever for progressing past the four locked doors. IT just wastes all your time and keys.



This chest was forgettable, but didn’t take much effort to get.



The noir level doesn’t last very long – it’s merely the eye of the storm.

One thing I’d like to note is that this game actually implements fall damage. If your character falls from a distance that is higher than the character can jump, he, she or it will take a point of damage. It’s irritating, and modern games that try to pull that on players get justly criticized. However, it’s seldom brought up in conversations about Legacy of the Wizard and its faults. I wonder why that might be.
  #71  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:38 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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Oh, yes. Things like this.

We have the unparalleled opportunity to move whole columns of blocks.

Even better, this isn’t even the extent of it. No, this pattern continues, left to right throughout the entire god forsaken area. Each Legacy of the Wizard section is about five screens wide. Four of those five screens will be dedicated to moving columns of blocks to the right.

At one point, I wondered if Falcom was just plain running out of ideas. But no, that doesn’t seem to be it. Happy dungeons are all alike, but each part of Legacy of the Wizard is unhappy in its own unique way.

One innovation that makes this even worse than it looks is “fake lack of blocks”. Trying to pass most of the space in this dungeon will result in a block magically appearing to bar your way.

I wonder why Metroid never thought of this innovation.



When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite.



In the next section, Falcom decides to let up for a bit. Even the fake blocks aren’t as bad as they look – the spikes are decorative, it’s pretty easy to avoid falling in, and at the cost of a bit of pain, you can continue where you left off by jumping off of one of the enemies.

I also found the return of Eggman a pleasant change. Maybe Falcom, having shown their dominance, will let up a bit?
  #72  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:39 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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No.

The enemies look like something out of Lovecraft. That would certainly give a new context to the last level.



Speaking of inconvenient store locations, this is getting a bit absurd.



At least, the piece d’resistance! The next mega-room is something truly epic. Like many games, it combines all the gameplay elements of the previous stage into a potent admixture, with innovative new twists.

This design philosophy can often produce excellent results. The fatal flaw this time around is just what the last set of gameplay elements were.



Let’s get this party started! (In a cruel joke, the chest contains food).



The last part of the dungeon merely serves as a landing pad for this part of the dungeon. If ever you fall, you have to plod through the last pit to return.
  #73  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:41 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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And that part of the dungeon serves solely as a landing pad for this part of the dungeon. Note that the discolored parts of the floor and walls are fake blocks. Miss just one of these painful jumps in tight quarters, and you will be dumped into the stage before yesterday, and receive the opportunity to do it all over again. From the dungeon before yesterday.

Spoiler -- We visit here again!



For my last act, I traverse these pillars of bricks. The fact that some of these pillars aren’t fake is an unforgivable oversight on Falcom’s part.



Normally, getting this crown requires solving a block puzzle, where failure means a return to start. I, being wimpy, took a bit of pain and wrapped myself around the rock beast instead.
  #74  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:42 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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Boss fights in this game are the opposite of epic, so much so I missed getting a screen shot. To compensate, I photoshopped (well, Paint.NEted) him in to make it look more awesome. I traded hits until he died.

Fun fact – bosses in Legacy of the Wizard are not specific to the area. The first boss will always be the spider and the second boss always this lich thing.



Is this the end?
  #75  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:43 AM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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No! Remember that I mentioned I missed something last time? We get an epilogue!



Remember the ladder to nowhere? Falcom did something clever here – it’s a clever hint as to the location of the fake block you touch to get back here and get at the chest.



No, that’s not a graphical glitch. Right on top of the real chest, is of course, a mimic, whom will eat you for massive damage if you touch him. Xemn is manly enough to dispatch them in a few shots, and grab his boot.

I could not have thought of a more fitting way to end this section then thoughtless malice.

Next time – Falcom and positive portrayals of women in games.
  #76  
Old 10-19-2008, 04:16 PM
Pajaro Pete Pajaro Pete is offline
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Quote:
The goal of the next part of the puzzle is “block riding”. Xemn can actually use blocks as a mode of transportation. Unfortunately, it’s easy to fall off your block, and it’s back to the ladder to nowhere for you. Don't even ask how the physics of this work.
Quote:
This is what hell really looks like.
Quote:
Next time – Falcom and positive portrayals of women in games.


I've been trying to forget this game since I first played it. Xemn's pushing blocks through the air to ride on them STILL HAUNTS MY NIGHTMARES.
  #77  
Old 10-19-2008, 10:02 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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Intermission -- Legacy of the Legacy of the Wizard

I was about to do a giant summary of the Dragon Slayer series and Legacy of the Wizard (Dragon Slayer 4’s) place in it, but frankly, it’s been done better here –

http://hg101.classicgaming.gamespy.c...agonslayer.htm

Summary – The Dragon Slayer consists of random unrelated games shoehorned into a family tree. There are lots of spin offs. Very few entries in the series are worth playing.

Oh, and Xanadu was popular in Japan, which amazed me due to the fact that it is unplayable. It probably set back Japanese game design a decade.

I will allow myself this from my large canned post –



Sorcerian occupations rock. I do think that is a Monty Python reference.

Instead, I’ll stick with my value added and go over the other incarnations of Legacy of the Wizard, or Dragon Slayer 4.

There were two versions of Dragon Slayer 4 for the MSX, one for the more primitive system and one for the more powerful. My knowledge of MSX lore beyond that is limited to say the least. The games were ported to the Famicom by Namco(t), and then brought to the US by Broderbund.

Note that one of the most frustrating features of almost all MSX games is that they don’t handle scrolling very well. In Dragon Slayer 4’s case, while the game is still divided into five screen zones (but with loading time in between), there is still no horizontal scrolling. Your character simply leaves screen one to enter screen two. It’s quite cumbersome, and makes it difficult for even me to tolerate the game for long periods of time.

One major difference between both of the MSX games is music. The soundchips for the different systems are obviously different, and the MSX music seems to be a bit slower in tempo.

The MSX version also has unique musical tracks for each of the bosses in the game, while the NES version uses the same song for the four.

Pochi’s theme also differs between the two systems. To say the least of it, the MSX version sounds rather out of place. My suspicion is that the track is a reprise of a theme used previously in the series. Namco’s decision to axe it was probably wise.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res10gez0/...P07/ds4-01.mp3

Beyond that – first, I’ll go over the early version:
  #78  
Old 10-19-2008, 10:04 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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Left to right – Famicom, MSX1, MSX 2

The Dragon Slayer logo is one of the very, very few constants throughout this series, and even that isn’t always preserved. Sorcerian and Lord Monarch don’t include it.
  #79  
Old 10-19-2008, 10:05 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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The use of color in this game has always struck me as really, really odd. The characters are all black and white, the enemies are solid colored, and the items are psychedelic.



Despite the extreme graphical differences, the dungeon design is essentially identical to the NES/Famicom version.



The MSX2 version is a big step forward, and also rationalizes the rather out of hand color schemes shown here. The home looks much more familiar, though some of the sprites were redrawn.
  #80  
Old 10-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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The sprites in the MSX2 version were probably the basis for the Famicom port, but most of them are subtly different. This is particularly notable with the main characters (note that the levels themselves use almost exactly the same graphics). The Famicom version also doesn’t seem to mix up the enemy color schemes as much, possibly due to technical limitations.



The most striking difference though, is the dungeon design. The Famicom version uses the same dungeon map as the original, nearly to a T. The MSX2 version mixes things up a great deal, including enemy placement, chests and their contents, and other things. It’s almost like half of a second quest.
  #81  
Old 10-19-2008, 10:07 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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In particular, Lyll’s section of the dungeon was radically reworked. On the left is the MSX2 version, while on the right is the Famicom version (which follows from the MSX1 version). I love how the room is bisected by what seems to be something from a completely different room in the dungeon.

I’ve always been curious about the dungeon design differences, and have been sorely tempted to play through the MSX2 version. Unfortunately, it stretches even my tolerance for older gaming standards. The controls aren’t quite as good as the Famicom game, the graphics come off as a bit of a step down, and while the music is essentially the same, the sound effects seem to be a noticeable step down. All that might be tolerable, but the lack of horizontal scrolling is really a deal breaker. Randomly, I’ve been tempted to try and load the graphics and levels from the MSX2 game into the Famicom ROM, to try and get the best of both worlds, but then I remember that I have better things to do.

One thing that has struck me about Dragon Slayer 4 in general is that for a company that strip mines its franchises enough to make Activision seem the embodiment of artistic integrity is that this is all there is of the fourth game in the series – two versions and a port. Despite all the flaws in the game, it is heads and shoulders above most of the rest of Falcom’s back catalog, but the company continues to utterly ignore it. I’d for one love to see them pull the “take dated gameplay and add beautiful graphics and a remixed soundtrack” move on this game, but it just doesn’t seem to be in the cards.

This phenomenon extends to the soundtrack. Ys is obviously the poster boy for how much blood you can squeeze from a stone (when I was younger, I actually made a spreadsheet of every Falcom album I knew about, and I think some songs got more than twenty releases), but even lesser Falcom franchises, such as Sorcerian or Brandish generally get a ton of exposure. Dragon Slayer 4, despite the awesome music and Yuzo Koshiro, has seen a single OST a decade ago, and a single track on a special box CD. Isn’t it terrible when the only thing they exploit to death is what you freaking want?

(By the way, if anyone can hook me up with the tracks from the OST, I would be eternally grateful. The song I linked to was recorded directly from the MSX game).
  #82  
Old 10-20-2008, 02:04 PM
kaisel kaisel is offline
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I keep trying to play Legacy of the Wizard since I like Falcom and sidescrollers a lot, but this game just frustrates me to no end (mainly the block puzzles). I would love to see a remake of this that made the game fun/more forgiving.

Sorcerian on the other hand is pretty easy, aside from the dragon scenario you can do when you hit a high enough level...
  #83  
Old 10-20-2008, 02:41 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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I keep trying to play Legacy of the Wizard since I like Falcom and sidescrollers a lot, but this game just frustrates me to no end (mainly the block puzzles). I would love to see a remake of this that made the game fun/more forgiving.
The thing is, I don't think it'd be all that hard to do. Here are a few minor things that could make the game much more playable --

1. Allow saving/continuing games from Inns.
2. Some sort of indication (like a portrait) showing new players which section of the dungeon belongs to which player.
3. Fixing the drop system.
4. Having locked doors stay that way once they've been unlocked.
5. There are a few specific cases where you have to find a certain breakable brick on the floor of the dungeon in order to proceed to the next room. Usually breakable bricks are handled okay, but in these cases it should really be replaced with a ladder.
6. Some sort of vague, in-game description of what each item does. The game is pretty good about making them intuitive, but one or two items in particular could really do with a blurb.
7. A visual indication of what the crowns do once you have all four.
8. Improve the control of the glove, especially when mid-air.
9. More breakpoints within block puzzles, so you don't go back as far when you fail.
10. Something fun at the dead end in Pochi's stage! (I'm still bitter about that).

I'm a bit surprised you feel Sorcerian is easier then Legacy of the Wizard. I tried the DOS version, and found it even less intuitive. This might be a case where one of the more modern remakes would work better for me though. (Why on Earth don't they just give you the equipment the game forces you to buy before starting anyway?)

Oh, and a preview of coming attractions --

  #84  
Old 10-20-2008, 08:52 PM
kaisel kaisel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netbrian
I'm a bit surprised you feel Sorcerian is easier then Legacy of the Wizard. I tried the DOS version, and found it even less intuitive. This might be a case where one of the more modern remakes would work better for me though. (Why on Earth don't they just give you the equipment the game forces you to buy before starting anyway?)
I think it's probably because Sorcerian was one of the first PC games that I played, so a lot of it is probably internalized. Also, there's a scenario or two that really lend themselves to "grinding" (basically have a couple of mages in the party, turn the speed to the highest, and hold the magic button).

One of these days I'll make it through Legacy of the Wizard, I imagine this is one of those games that is fun on an emulator, and terrible on an actual console.
  #85  
Old 10-20-2008, 10:01 PM
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Intermission –

The dungeon for Maia has an item required for Lyll’s dungeon, and vice versa. The items can also be purchased at shops, but we’re going to get them the hard way. I’ll start with Lyll, and then as soon as I have what I’m looking for, finish Maia’s dungeon. Then I’ll have what I need to finish Lyll’s dungeon.



Luckily, the ladies of the game are awesome.



As I mentioned before, Lyll has an effect on game balance largely similar to Mewtwo, Bo Jackson, and the long straight line in Tetris, and is in the running to be the most awesome character in anything ever. Her magic has a further range then everyone else, and she jumps about twice as high as the rest of her family. She also gets some of the best items in the game.



The power boots aren’t strictly required to beat the game, but make doing so a much more enjoyable experience. With them equipped, you can jump on any enemy, and kill them instantly.



Lyll’s section is in the upper right-hand corner of the dragon room.



Lyll’s dungeon is the least linear of the four, and includes very little railroading. For most games, that’d be a good thing, but for LotW, that just means it’s horrifically confusing in an already brain-melting game.
  #86  
Old 10-20-2008, 10:02 PM
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I love the ethereal color palette used in this level. But… is that a block puzzle I see?



Remember when I said that Lyll was the most awesome character ever? This is one of the reasons why. She doesn’t bother with gently pushing blocks around, or mounting them like a horse. No, when Lyll wants to get past a block, she takes her pick axe to it, and crushes it like a bug.

Note that most people will do Xemn’s entire dungeon with Lyll instead. She can jump over most of the problems, and cut her way through the rest. She can cut out Pochi altogether.



Note that it’s actually possible to get through the shaft on the right unaided, though you’re not intended to be able to. You have to wait position enemies exactly correctly to pull it off, and it’s frankly not worth the effort.

Unfortunately, in a game as abstruse as this, I’ve spent quite a bit of time trying to pull it off in a fruitless attempt at progression. When you have no idea where to go, it’s mighty tempting.



Here, Lyll demonstrates her approach to moving blocks, which is to pound them to dust.



I do get a chance to grab a second power boot, thus making my backtracking earlier look rather silly.
  #87  
Old 10-20-2008, 10:03 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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I really like the color scheme for this level too -- and the return of the blobs.




More fake blocks! Falcom is going to drive this concept into the ground. The mega-key will be of great use to us later.



I took this picture solely to showcase the different fashions of the enemies on display.



The flower extends the range of my attacks for the cost of an extra mana. Unfortunately, the only character that gets much use out of it is Pochi, and we’re done with him.

I like the bleak, melancholy level design here.
  #88  
Old 10-20-2008, 10:06 PM
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I’ve always been struck by the lovingly rendered active volcano found here, deep in the bowels of these hellish ruins. Things like this are one of the reasons I think highly of the game, and appreciate the differentiated dungeons.



Just in case we hadn’t had enough with spike lined pits, I find what I came for. I then use a crystal to escape.

I’ve kept this section of the LP truncated so as to not spoil the real playthrough of Lyll’s dungeon.

Now, for something completely different:



Maia is another gem. She jumps higher and goes longer than her husband, and her attacks are almost as powerful. (Men in this game just can’t win).

She also has an absolutely spectacular item selection, and won’t put up with this block pushing for a moment.



Remember the Gae Bolg we picked up oh so far back? Stabbing a block will hurl it with great strength across the length of the screen. It will slaughter any enemies in its path, and bounce around quite some time before coming to a rest. Note that if it hits the character, it will bounce the other direction, but inflict unavoidable damage.

Why yes, you will have to get hit with blocks over and over before the game ends. How did you know?



The other item is a set of wings. To be short, the wings turn off gravity.

I have a feeling that jumping puzzles will not make up a significant part of Maia’s gauntlet.
  #89  
Old 10-20-2008, 10:08 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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You never have to do this, but the blocks can be blasted diagonally as well. I just think it’s really cool.



This look familiar? But Maia gets to be on top.



Just in case you wanted to relive your worst moments.
  #90  
Old 10-20-2008, 10:10 PM
Netbrian Netbrian is offline
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Our endless journey has come to an end. You can tell by the penguin warrior.



Christ. I’m not looking forward to the end of this dungeon.



Somehow, this spike-lined room no longer instills quite the terror it used to. However, I don’t think I like the surfeit of locked doors.
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