Hey brave man! Let's play Wonder Boy in Monster Land!

The thing about either of these is that they have specific answers, so once you've seen the Sphinx a few times (and if you're playing this game blind, you're going to be seeing the Sphinx a lot of times) you'll know all the answers, through trial and error if nothing else. So you'll never fight the Sphinx again. Maybe that'd be for the better, in a way. I think that this game replaces saves or passwords with the player learning stuff, and it'd fit in with that. What it does instead by having a weird random question is make you choose between spending some money to skip the boss, or taking the risk of having to fight him. Unless the correct answer to each question is the same each time, which I'm not absolutely certain it isn't (Edit: I played the game this morning and fried chicken was the wrong answer, so now I am absolutely certain it isn't the same each time).

Here we are in Round 7, the Pororo Islands.



Rats are as much of a hassle as ever. This one drops a life heart. Let’s see what’s behind door number one:



It’s a shoe shop. Since I have basically no money, I will not be upgrading my shoes. I actually don’t usually get the Legendary Armor in the Pyramid, so normally there’s a pretty good chance I’ll be getting Legendary Boots at this shop, if not at the one in the Pyramid. I’m pretty sure that if you’ve already got ceramic or legendary boots then this store will sell you wing boots, which are pretty useful in the next area.



I kill the next two RATS and a PYTHON, and pick up two life hearts (which make up for the hits I take) and six gold. Behind door number two:



A magic shop, selling helmets (which double your defence for a while) and fireballs. I don’t really need any more defence at the moment, and I hardly ever buy spells, so I don’t bother buying here.



Darn RATS. But the harp that guy dropped in the last screenshot will push me over 200,000 points, scoring me an extra life heart. Door number three is a bar:



These are pretty mysterious hints. This is the first mention in-game of the Guidance Bell, and it’s not very revealing. Here’s what the manual has to say about the Bell: “Hear it ring so soft so sweet, change directions with your feet.” Right. What about the Echo Tower? Well, I don’t know what an echo tower is. But if we look at the manual’s description of the flute I’m carrying: “Play a tune at a spot with a view, listen now as it comes back to you”. That sounds like I need to take the flute to the echo tower!



Door number four:



For once I’m in decent shape at the nurse’s office, so I leave.



I head across town and see some more RATS. Behind door number five:



The nefarious COIN COLLECTOR.

You guys are lucky to have a skilled guide like me showing you the game. Anyway, this guy is just like the DEATH MASTER back in Round 1, except that he takes more hits to kill, steals gold from you when he hits (note that I had 99G in the first two shots, and 94G in the third), and is assisted by three GHOSTs. GHOSTs are just like EEL WHIPS, except that they take more hits to kill. Way more. They’re worth 30,000 points, according to the manual, and I’m not sure I’ve ever actually taken one out, because it just takes too long.



The fight isn’t too tough, but you can get kind of stuck in the corner since all four enemies move towards you. The upper two GHOSTS stay in the top half of the screen, but can still hit you if you jump carelessly.



I attempt to knock this GHOST back, but I miss.



I take another swing on the ground. This time I connect, but the COIN COLLECTOR closes in and I lose another 5G. At least with my Legendary Armor on I’m only losing a quarter heart to each hit.



A few more hits seal the deal. He gets upset and disappears, then his GHOSTs explode (I guess), and a new sword appears. I was hoping that maybe I’d get 90,000 point for the three GHOSTs, but I guess this doesn’t count as killing them, so I only get 4,000 points for the COLLECTOR (who should give 40,000 according to the manual). I wonder what kind of sword this is?



Nice!



Getting tired of RATS. Here’s the last door in this town:



Hmm.



I ignore Dumbo’s advice and head east, but can go no further!



Heading back west I find a new moving platform. Sadly I missed the shot, but at the top of its movement range a spring appears and you’re thrown into the sky.



This is a good place to have wing boots. Most of the clouds drop money, and if you miss a jump you’ll be taken to the next part of the stage without being able to collect it.



Those scales are not worth pursuing.



There isn’t really a great deal to say about this area. You proceed to the right, collect some cash and kill some EEL WHIPS. Then:



I’m pretty sure you can make this jump in legendary boots, or if you’ve got wing boots. I have neither, so I don’t.

JELLYFISH!



He was asking for it.



SNAPPER CRABs!



They drop some handy power-ups.



Yet another door.



It’s the BLUE KNIGHT! Just like the COIN COLLECTOR earlier in the level, this guy is a pallette swap of an earlier boss, in this case Round 3’s RED KNIGHT. Unlike the COIN COLLECTOR, the BLUE KNIGHT has no extra enemies to complicate the fight, nor a new gimmick like stealing money. It’s just the same fight.



Even having practiced against the RED KNIGHT, I can’t land a hit. In the third shot it looks like I should be taking damage, but thanks to the mantle I picked up off the crabs outside I’m currently invincible.



I start to get my act together.



And that’s it! His damage indicator’s still yellow, but thanks to the gauntlet I’m carrying I can skip the red stage.



From here on in, bosses drop bags of cash instead of coins. Each of these holds 10G.



Awrighty, we’ve got the key, the exit’s off to the left. Let’s get out of here!



Wrong way! But hey, that’s a nice tower. Let’s investigate!



Aww nards. Oh well. I’ll move on.



Dead end! Bollocks. Still, since the EEL WHIPS has chased me over here, I might be able to sneak up the ladder.

Yup. This isn’t a problem with Legendary Boots, which let you jump high enough to hit it with your sword.



This being the south island’s echo tower, Wonder Boy whips out his flute and plays a little tune.



I manage the jump to the first cloud, but there’s nothing up there. The second cloud is too far for leather boots. I’m not sure if it has any cash, but I’m pretty sure that the roof of the boss room does. Too bad I can’t reach it.



Having used the flute, the path past the echo tower is open. There’s a small castle over there. I try to jump on the platform above the door, but am again thwarted by the leather boots. Maybe getting the Legendary Armor first was a bad move.



I kill the EEL WHIPS, but I don’t have time to waste killing GHOSTS.



Here’s our first MINI-RED KNIGHT. The name pretty much says it all. He gets in a hit, and unfortunately I was flashing in the doorknocking screenshot so you can’t see me. But we go in that oddly-placed door.



This is the old man living in a mysterious mansion that Catherine mentioned back in Round 4. He shows me.how to obtain the emblem.



I’m sure there’s some money hidden here, so I jump around for a while looking for it, but no luck.



I take another shot at getting on top of the boss room. Will I succeed?



I will not.



It’s a good idea to clear out the enemies before re-entering the boss room. What’s it contain this time?



Oh. This guy again.



OK, so I take a hit this time, but on the whole my performance is much better. Remember that last time I had a MYSTERIOUS MANTLE and a GAUNTLET. This time I’m only doing regular damage, and I’m not invincible.



I’m back at full health, I got some points, and I’m up 80G.

I don’t get hit leaving the boss room ‘cause I took the time to get the enemies away before I went in. My status isn’t bad. Full health, pretty decent equipment, Charm of Star (the old man gave it to me). Time to leave!



Nice!

Here's the stage map:



I decided to go old school for this one. It's just like back in Rounds 1 and 2! Except it took even longer. You can click on that for a bigger version, or click here for one without the scribbles.

How about that COIN COLLECTOR, eh?



And the BLUE KNIGHT? (I'm flashing because of the MYSTERIOUS MANTLE)



Didn't I fight him twice?



Anyways, tl,dr:

Round 8 – Village of Cacti



Oh great. MADMAN.



Here’s the trick with these guys: When they’re in the ground, you can hit them from the side.



Sweet, delicious money.



14G? Lame! And there’s another MADMAN just around the corner!



This guy at least has the decency to drop 31G.



Yet another RAT. Let’s get out of this place.



Now this looks like a cacti village.



Jumping around like a moron fails to uncover any hidden cash. Town looks pretty much deserted, too. I guess as we get closer to the dragon’s lair, the influence of the monsters is stronger.



Looks like not everyone has cleared out. Commerce will find a way!



That’s just silly. Dragons can fly for themselves.



I attempt to find some hidden money, and take a hit from that GHOST.



A GOLDEN MIRROR and LIFE HEART for my efforts to rid the world of EEL WHIPS and ROHPAHs.



Looks like at least one more brave soul has stuck on in this town.



Oh no! It’s Mr WIZARD!

I am immediately hit by a fireball. A proud moment.



Mr WIZARD is surprisingly agile for a man clearly advanced in years. He jumps around, easily avoiding my attack. I decide to close in for the kill.



Oh, come on!



Yes!



No!



Aha! Take that!



Then I miss again.



I manage to block a fireball with my shield.



Then I walk into him again.



I finally manage to hit him as he lands. The fruits of my labour:



A supply of LIGHTNING FLASH! magic. And the satisfaction of having avenged the Village of Cacti. Although, come to think of it, all those cacti outside looked fine.



I get hit immediately on exiting, because I didn’t push that GHOST back before going in.



On the plus side, I was thrown in the direction I was going anyway. And, since I’ve been hit already, the ROHPAH projectile passes straight through me.



Once again I’ve been sucking up the place so bad that this heart is a welcome drop.



I forget, is this round 8 or round 2? Apparently building a town just outside a large cavern is standard practice in Monster Land.

MINI-COIN COLLECTOR! Despite the name, these guys steal regular-sized coins when they hit you.



I leave him behind (but lost 5G to him) and take on this BAT. Like a lot of the BATs in this game, this one doesn’t swoop to a level where you can hit him on the ground. He can hit you, though. Notice that I lost a quarter heart between the second and third shots. Luckily, it drops a whole heart, so I come out ahead.



I encounter another MINI-COIN COLLECTOR. I’m a little more successful in dodging this time. Just like in Round 2, someone be beyond the wall here.



It’s MEDUSA! Note that at this point, the game is no longer holding your hand. Unlike in Round 2, there’s no pop-up notice to say that there’s a door hidden on that platform. You don’t even get a question mark. You just have to have figured out by now that you should press up all over the place if you want to finish Round 8.



Yep, I’m in top form today. Anyway, MEDUSA throws snakes all over the place. They can get kind of overwhelming. Luckily, I have a gift from Mr WIZARD.



LIGHTNING FLASH! The screen goes white, and all the little snakes die (yes, that is a screenshot in the middle). For some reason I still have 9 more shots of the spell. I guess Mr WIZARD must drop 10. You can accumulate more than 9 of a spell, but 9 is the most that will show on screen.



Probably the best way to handle this fight is to attack with your sword, and just use lightning if you miss a swing or if there’s too many little snakes on screen. Instead of doing this, I just blow all my lightning at once.



As a result, I have to actually fight her once I run out. I take a hit.



I manage to get her damage indicator into the red, then get hit by a snake. How embarrassing!



I get 10 points for killing this snake. Maybe I should just grind here for a while.



I finish the job and load up on cash. If I hadn’t already been flashing from the snake hit I just got, I would’ve taken a hit from the snake underneath me in the second shot when I landed. They don’t disappear immediately.



My initial attempt to get the jump on this bat ends in failure, but I again abuse hit invincibility to kill him, and again the equation works in my favour. He drops more life than he takes.



I guess they put a moving platform here so that you can get back to the first part of the stage if you missed MEDUSA.



Another epic BAT battle ends in victory for me. Note that I got the first kill with a BOMB. This was either because I’m super awesome, or because I threw one accidentally at a lucky time.



Awrighty! Now only my shield sucks!

Look how high I can jump!



I spend a little time jumping trying to find cash before the BATs start to respawn and I decide that this must be the first rooftop in the game with no money on it.



I’m pretty sure that respawned BATs don’t drop hearts, so I’m forced to finish the stage in less than perfect health.

BONUS MATERIAL:



Here's the fight with Mr WIZARD.



My MEDUSA fight perhaps needs a little explaining. I didn't manage to get all the white flashes from the lightning into the .gif, so the beginning looks a little funny. Each time she's thrown back for no reason, that's the lightning. Actually, watching the .gif, I think I might've used the magic too quickly. I'm not sure that all the shots connected. What a waste!



And here's the map.

tl,dr:

Perhaps you noticed something odd about the map? Well, Round 8 is pretty short, but it has a trick up its sleeve: a branching path!



You might remember this intersection from the main run. In that, I went to the right. Had I gone down the hole:



I’d’ve found a GOBLIN.



I’ve left out the shots where he hit me. Let’s pretend that never happened.



Although that makes my walking on spikes here hard to explain (in fact, if you look closely, you’ll notice that I took some damage between the second and third shots. That’s what comes of standing on spikes).



Since you guys were so nice about ignoring those hits before, I’m gonna let you see me get hit by this MINI-RED KNIGHT.



Uh, twice.



He drops a MYSTERIOUS MANTLE, which is actually pretty useful. These are big jumps for a guy in leather boots.



I’m flashing here because of the MANTLE. This dude was the one enemy in this area that didn’t hit me. Also, remember back in Round 3 when I said that the conveyor belt there was the only one in the game? Yeah, I don’t take this path very often.



I make my exit, and find myself in the same cavern I would’ve gotten to anyway, except I bypassed the Village. That’s no fun! Who’s gonna deal with Mr WIZARD if I don’t? And how will I defeat MEDUSA without my LIGHTNING FLASH!es? We’ll never know, because none of this ever happened! I always take the high road. That said, if you clean out the enemies in the first area, and then take the low road, you'll come out ahead financially, since none of the enemies in the village drop any money.

In keeping with tradition:

Watching these animated gifs, my mind is just going right ahead and inserting all those SQUEEDILLY hit sounds on its own.

Also, you have to respect this game for not totally missing the point like everything else ever and going with some kinda Hot Medusa.

There's still a panty flash though. I guess it's a terrifying one that turns you to stone?

You -- lied to us?

I need to reevaluate my life now.

Round 9: the Floating City of Tonnovia. I just noticed that I got an extra LIFE HEART between levels. Nice!



I may have skipped out a shot or two where I fell in the lava. Why would they build a town here?



I skip over the shield shop for now. But that’s a bar!



Looks like yet another town built next to a cavern. Buying the ale gets you a clue that you should be looking for hidden rooms when you get to the cavern. Buying the mead lets you know to look out for hidden doors in the icy castle. But I don’t see how anyone’s going to build an icy castle in this environment.



Boing! I love springs. The armour store is still open, despite their entire customer base (me) already having the best armour. Wierd. I wonder what they’re selling.



Double helmets. And an impatient shopkeeper.



He’s closed up! I only went in there once!



I have again omitted the shot of me getting hit, which also included me turning up the hidden bag of cash I got that 15G from. Say, that puts me over 120G. I just need to do something, hang on a tick.



Since I killed him already, this guy drops a GOLDEN MIRROR instead of cash. Whatevs, I don’t need it right now anyway.



I spend 120G on the Knight Shield. It isn’t much better than what I have, but now the next shop will be selling the Legendary Shield.



Shiny.



Something weird happened on the way back. See how the PYTHON moves between the third and fourth shots? That’s not supposed to happen. They don’t move, and they die in one hit. But this one, for some reason, was thrown back instead of being killed by my first swing. And then when I hit it again, it didn’t even drop anything (200 points aside), because I’d already killed it twice.



I get hit again. God. Let’s cavern!



Alright, a BAT! BATs are always good for a free heart.



What.

The way forward is to go downward. It’s a good idea to jump down these holes, because you fall faster. If I’d been falling (Wonder Boy with his arms out) the BAT might’ve swooped me while I was trapped hopelessly in the air.



I promptly get hit by the MADMAN anyway, and the BAT drops a GOLD NECKLACE. At least these early-game enemies are only doing minimal damage.



I stick around to kill the MADMAN and get some cash (good haul, actually). The BATs respawn, but drop nothing this time. And I lose some more health. Great.



I forget to jump over the edge, so here I am in a slow fall. Luckily there are no enemies in the next room. Unluckily I also fall into the room after that, where something is spawning.



BATs! Man, that was a close one! I don’t bother sticking around to have these guys not drop hearts for me, and I also don’t bother landing in the next room.



I press up on this conspicuous platform, and find a door. But first, what’s my status?



You might notice that I actually took this shot earlier in the stage, when I had more health and less money. Anyway, I’ve got Excallibur [sic]. That’s pretty nice. Right, back to the game:



The KING DEMON is surrounded by a burning ring of fire. It expands and contracts. This might’ve been a good place to use the LIGHTNING FLASH!es I wasted on MEDUSA. Oh well.



One way to fight him is to rush in and hit him when the ring gets small. But each time the ring goes out, it goes out further than the last, so that can be pretty slow. How about I dash inside the ring and get some hits while it’s big?



Oh right, I’m not very good at this game. Whoops. Luckily, the fireballs only take off a quarter heart.



Also luckily, I’m temporarily invincible and can ignore the fireballs and get some hits in.



This goes on for a while. Then:



My invincibility wears off! Just as I was about to finish him off, too.



I finish the job. I wonder what my new sword is?



The Sword of Legend. I’m pretty sure I had one of those already.

I am not having a good time with BATs today.



Outside the lava cave, the floor is made of ice bricks. I guess the GOBLIN is ice-elemental, so he’s ok, and I’m wearing shoes, so everything is fine.



This little stairway gets me up to the clouds.



But there doesn’t seem to be anything up there. I’m falling down in the fifth shot because there’s an invisible blockage in the sky that stops you jumping to the next cloud.



I also don’t manage to jump to the roof of this building. So I go inside instead.



It’s the MEGA-GOBLIN! I’m off to my usual poor start. It’s possible that if I had a better shield it would have blocked that, but since I got hit in the face rather than the shield I kinda doubt it. Also, that took off three quarters of a heart! I think this is the first enemy (aside from the lava) to do more than one quarter since I got the Legendary Armor. I better be careful.



Aww crud.



Fortunately, since I’ve just been hit the shot goes straight through me, and my second blow connects.



My third and fourth do not.



I try to close in and my invincibility wears off. This is getting sort of pathetic.



That’s more like it!



The MEGA-GOBLIN, unhappy with this turn of events, takes evasive action and then hits me again.



Now he’s on the ropes! Once that hit connects, it’ll all be over.



Oh come on! Instead of dying, he takes away the last of my health. My recovery potion kicks in automatically, and I’m back at full strength, but now I’ll have to get another. Weak.



One last missed shot.

There we go.



Let’s just leave this embarrassment behind us, ok? Join me next time, for the Ice Castle! Hopefully in less than a month this time.

Alrighty, the extras:



Here's the map. It was a bit of a squeeze to fit it all in.



The KING DEMON.



And of course, the MEGA-GOBLIN.

TL,DR:

Another perfect ending, haven't seen one of those in a while.

I'm not sure that it counts, since I got it by losing all my health and using the potion.

I think you should know that I love your GIFs.

Uh, that must be a Legendarier Sword (like the Strongester Sword from Octo's Battle of Olympus LP).

Oh man! We're getting close to the end! Can't wait to see how you handle the final labyrinth.

Time for Round 10: Ice Castle! Oddly, only the floor and roof are made of ice. The walls are brick. And a fair portion of the floor is lava. Must be a heck of an air conditioner in this place. Onwards!



Aww nuts. Why does everything I do go wrong? Man, can I even jump high enough to get out of this pit? That’s pretty harsh, WBiML.



Oh. Never mind.



I’m killing ORGASM MASTERs in one hit now. That bit of cash is nice. Actually at this point I need to start thinking about what I’m going to do with my money. I’ve got the best boots, armour, and sword, but my shield is a bit naff. I’m pretty sure there’s a shield shop in Round 11 that can hook me up, but I’m also missing my REVIVAL POTION, which is probably the more important item to replace. They cost 100G, which I have, but there it’s also possible to get one as an enemy drop. I’ll have to think about it and spend carefully.



I hate BATS. You might notice I lost a LIFE HEART in the last shot. That’s the result of another trip into the lava.



This guy would sell armour if there were any left to buy. Instead, it’s all HELMETs, all the time. I actually thought this store would be selling a REVIVAL POTION, since I don’t have one, but no such luck. That takes some of the work out of deciding how to spend my money, at least.



Another BAT. This time I’ll do better!



OK, yes, he got me. It’s still better, though, because when I fell in the lava I was still flashing, so I only lost a little health. That’s strategy!



I’m gonna say that these guys are a little out of their depth. And the cash they drop proves it. That first one gave a paltry 1G. Lame.



Hope that money’s still there when I get out of the shop.



Ah, the shield store. This is what I’ve been waiting for. Sadly, I can’t afford either shield. Well, that saves me the bother of deciding which to go for, so let’s call it a win. I now know that in order to buy everything I want (the potion and the legendary shield) I need 450G.



JELLYFISH. In lava. This truly is a Monster Land.



They may be immune to heat, but I know their weakness: swords.



Well, thank goodness that’s over. I wonder what’s next?

MINI-COIN COLLECTOR! I’m short on cash as it is!



Screw it. I don’t wanna live anymore.



I sneak past the COLLECTOR with the invincibility I got falling in the lava. All part of the plan. I discover that the magic shop isn’t selling POTIONs. I’m starting to get worried, ‘cause if the magic shop isn’t selling them, I don’t know who will.



I screw up the plan by falling into the lava after I’d already lost 5G to the second COLLECTOR. What’s that CRAB doing here? Surely it’s both too hot and too cold for CRABs?



Maybe that’s why he goes down in one hit. Anyway, LARGE HEARTs are always appreciated.



Great, an OCTOPUS. These guys are as hard to hit as ever.



Got ‘im!



The PYTHON guards the entrance to the shoe store. That can’t be good for business, but I guess if you set up a shop that only sells WING BOOTS in an Ice Castle you can’t really expect much.



I finally get something right and kill this OCTOPUS quickly.



Now all that’s left between me and the boss is that MINI-COIN COLLECTOR.



Actually, he’s not between me and the boss at all. Ha ha!

The deadly SNOW KHONG! He looks kind of familiar.



I advance bravely, clearly the wrong move in this situation.



Once again, my post-injury invincibility allows me to get a hit in.



I get greedy, and the KHONG gets away.



I pursue, and score another hit. If I can get him backed into the corner, I should be able to just keep hitting him.



Or that could happen instead. Either way, really.



Once again I give pursuit, and land another blow. How do you like that, KHONG?



Not so well, I take it. What a baby! Only three hits. Here, I’ll give you something to cry about.



Fine. Be that way. I’m taking your money.

Actually the reason he went down so easy is I got a GAUNTLET from the first OCTOPUS, doubling my attack power. I just deleted the shot so I’d look tough in the boss fight missed the screenshot.



And that’ Round 10! Probably the shortest level since the first, and the only one in the game without a bar. I got a nice bonus on the round clear screen. Not where it says “ROUND BONUS” though, there was none of that. When I got the points for my leftover life, it put me above 400,000. That means an extra life heart! I've now got the highest max HP possible.

Bonus material:



That damned dirty ape, fought Benny Hill style. This .gif wasn't running so fast before I uploaded it. Hmm.



The map. Starts in the top right, finishes in the lower left. Click on it for a full-sized version.

TL,DR:

Just wanna say you're doing a swell job, it's interesting seeing a little piece of gaming history I totally missed out on. I probably would've liked this game if it came out on the NES back in the day (because that's the only system I or anyone I knew when I was a kid owned).

Round 11: The Undersea Kingdom of Catfish. If you cast your mind all the way back to round 7, you’ll recall that the Great Catfish will replace the CHARM OF STAR that I’m carrying with the HERO’S EMBLEM (if I am truly brave man). I bet he’s around here somewhere.



I take a hit from these OCTOPI, but pick up some fireballs and wing boots in exchange.



This huge jump is trivial with my wing boots!



Unfortunately, this one’s a bit more difficult. I’m able to get over, but I’m hit by a ROHPAH. At least I get the chance to pick up some life from that RAT. And to visit the bar!



I’d kind of surmised as much about the Catfish, but it’s nice to have confirmation. We’ll have to keep an eye out for the seabed store.



I take another shot at the roof. I get hit again, but it looks like I might make it anyway.



I was too caught up in fierce battle to get any shots, but I managed to take out the ROHPAHS. The rewards are some hidden coins, for a total of 11G profit. Whoo!



It also lets me drift through the sky instead of moving forward ground-wards. Sadly there doesn’t seem to be anything up there. Thinking about it now, I’m pretty sure there’s actually a hidden LIFE HEART on the island with the tree that I just avoided. Whoops.



I seem to have reached a dead end, so I throw myself into the waves. What will happen now?



Underwater adventure time! The HARD SHIELD he’s selling is tempting, but I’m gonna hold out for a better one for now.



What a nice fellow. Unlike basically every other shopkeeper at this point in the game, this guy doesn’t close up immediately. You know, he’s such a nice guy, maybe I will buy that shield.



Oh! It’s the Great Catfish! He seems as surprised to see me as I am to see him. He’s clearly making up his speech as he goes along.



He gives me the EMBLEM, because of how I courageously re-entered the store, and gives me some solid advice.



There it is, the HERO’S EMBLEM. I guess the CATFISH must’ve been a hero himself at some point.