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  #61  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:20 PM
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Don't make me sad. Every time SEGA announce another Shining game that doesn't end in "Force" a kitten dies.
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  #62  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:31 PM
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So the Sniper highlighted in this picture:

uploadfromtaptalk1397773723829.jpg

...Passed on his chance to attack Ken, there. Surrounded by the Shining Force, this dude was like, *shrug* I'll be alright, I'mma hang back

How awesome is the AI in this game again?
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  #63  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantoon View Post
Don't make me sad. Every time SEGA announce another Shining game that doesn't end in "Force" a kitten dies.
Shining Force Neo showed that even if it's named Force, it's just as bad if Camelot isn't involved. Better hope for Golden Sun Tactics.
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  #64  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:53 PM
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Okay so I haven't played any of the PS2 Shining games. Are any of them SRPGs? Are any of them good?
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  #65  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:54 PM
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None are real SRPGs. No.

I guess Shining Tears is... acceptable, especially in multiplayer.

Edit: I guess Shining Force Feather gets closest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm8wA7Ax4qw
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  #66  
Old 04-17-2014, 04:08 PM
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Leveling up guys just so they are roughly equal to your existing Force is something I don't enjoy doing in SF1 either. I probably shouldn't talk about SF2 being designed to be more grindy as SF1 is probably (?) the worst entry when it comes to low level new recruits.

Whenever a random enemy unit goes down to 1 or 2 hp I consider saving that unit for a healer. That usually mitigates the problem if you can get your healers off the ground. Healers don't really need that many levels though to be effective, and mine are always far behind at the final battle.
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  #67  
Old 04-17-2014, 04:18 PM
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Starting levels for everyone in SF1 are as follows:

Level 1: Max, Luke, Ken, Tao, Hans, Lowe, Anri, Jogurt, Domingo
Level 2: Gort, Mae, Khris
Level 4: Arthur
Level 5: Balbaroy, Amon
Level 6: Diane
Level 7: Kokichi
Level 8: Pelle, Vankar, Guntz, Earnest, Lyle
Level 9: Zylo, Bleu
Level 10: Musashi, Adam, Hanzo
Level 15: Alef
Level 16: Torasu

Like, it's not perfect, but I don't really have any major issues with the starting levels for the most part.
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  #68  
Old 04-17-2014, 04:21 PM
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What I did on my playthrough was when a new character joined I replaced my worst character with him, if he turned out to suck as well I replaced him with the next character joining. The only really bad grinding is if you want to level up the cyborg as he has no damage and can't do more than 1 HP damage at start, but I never really bothered with him. It's not needed.

My end party was pretty close to my starting party: Hero, Lowe, Luke, Tao, Gong, Mae, Gort, Khris, Anri, Diane, Zylo and Domingo.

On later playthroughs I bothered more with the other characters and actually leveled some up. Quite some of them turn out really well, but it's not significantly better than just using the starting group for all the effort you need to put into leveling them. In fact in the end it seemed fairly well balanced.
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  #69  
Old 04-17-2014, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Refa View Post
Starting levels for everyone in SF1 are as follows:

Level 1: Max, Luke, Ken, Tao, Hans, Lowe, Anri, Jogurt, Domingo
Level 2: Gort, Mae, Khris
Level 4: Arthur
Level 5: Balbaroy, Amon
Level 6: Diane
Level 7: Kokichi
Level 8: Pelle, Vankar, Guntz, Earnest, Lyle
Level 9: Zylo, Bleu
Level 10: Musashi, Adam, Hanzo
Level 15: Alef
Level 16: Torasu

Like, it's not perfect, but I don't really have any major issues with the starting levels for the most part.
Domingo actually is level 1 promoted. Musashi and Hanzo are level 10 promoted. :-)

Biggest problems to level are:
Arthur - He is generally weak.
Balbaroy / Amon - They can fly which can be a huge advantage but all their stats are significantly lower than average.
Bleu / Adam - Start out really weak and can't use weapon, unable to deal more than 1 HP damage at start, very hard to level, but get strong later.
Alef / Torasu - They join unpromoted and after promotion they are still really weak, learn a very good set of magic so they could be used as replacements for another healer and mage.
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  #70  
Old 04-17-2014, 04:31 PM
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Isn't Hanzo also pretty awful when you get him? Other than that, you nailed the biggest issues on the head. I think Arthur's useable enough but leveling him up in the beginning is a pain. I throw statboosters on him to make it less painful because Magic Knight.
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  #71  
Old 04-18-2014, 02:51 AM
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Let's listen to a Shining Force remix shall we?
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  #72  
Old 04-18-2014, 09:06 AM
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Rya, you weren't kidding about healers being able to do decent damage early on. Khris got the finishing blow for 7 damage against the Marionette, and it wasn't even a critical. It was pretty cool, actually - I got right under the wire, since Khris was the last person to go in the round and it was the last round I could have possibly won the item. I was like "PLEASE DON'T MISS PLEASE DON'T MISS!"

Beating the circus battle in the requisite number of turns like I did earned me the rod that does extra damage against undead enemies, so that'll help the next few battles, probably.
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  #73  
Old 04-18-2014, 10:20 AM
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Yeah, they gave you that then for a really good reason.
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  #74  
Old 04-18-2014, 08:06 PM
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You'll notice that the combat utillity of healers roughly levels off around the point where they no longer have to be next to someone to heal them and have other spells they can cast to earn largish amounts of EXP regularly.

(Also, Khris is a girl, yo)
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  #75  
Old 04-18-2014, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
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(Also, Khris is a girl, yo)
Huh! So she is. I'd never noticed. Couldn't tell by the sprite and must have missed it in the dialogue.
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  #76  
Old 04-18-2014, 11:36 PM
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Interesting character mechanics notes regarding SFI and II: All but one of the healer classes in SFI are male (Khris being the exception), while all of the mages are ladies (with the sorta exceptions of Domingo and Hanzo for Despell). In SFII, all of the healers are ladies, while all but one of the mage classes are male (the exception being the female sorceress). There are two Birdmen in each game, one Beastman in each, two regular archers in each, one bowknight in each, and one mechanical warrior/tank in each. The numbers break down similarly in both games, and while I'd have to compare both games' lists of PCs, I'd be willing to be that both games have nearly the same number of PCs in them and in the same roles.
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  #77  
Old 04-18-2014, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckTwenty View Post
Huh! So she is. I'd never noticed. Couldn't tell by the sprite and must have missed it in the dialogue.
Another good thing about Shining Force - none of the girls are girly.
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  #78  
Old 04-19-2014, 04:25 AM
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I like making the healer girl from the start of Shining Force 2 into the special promotion for healers. I don't want to name it just in case it's actually a spoiler, but when I say special, I mean you need something extra to unlock it instead of just hitting level 20.
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  #79  
Old 04-19-2014, 05:09 AM
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You mean Master Monks. It's certainly okay to have no spoiler courtesy when a thread is intending to invite discussion on all topics, including design.

(Speaking of girly... those thighs!)

Along the same lines as what Mightyblue pointed out, the character races have a very strict breakdown along character classes. The basic sword/axe warrior class is exclusive to the Dwarves (even Luke in SF1 is considered a dwarf). In SF1 --- the only game with hobbits/halflings --- hobbits compromise all the non-monk healer characters. The basic foot archers are always elves in all games. All elves are either archers or mages. Knights/Paladins are exclusively centaur.

Last edited by dosboot; 04-19-2014 at 10:17 AM.
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  #80  
Old 04-19-2014, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
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It's certainly okay to have no spoiler courtesy when a thread is intending to invite discussion on all topics, including design.
Also when the game is twenty years old.
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  #81  
Old 04-19-2014, 10:07 AM
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Master Monks are totally overpowered in SF2.
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  #82  
Old 04-19-2014, 06:56 PM
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Weren't most of those special promotions better than the regular ones? I can't really remember. It seemed like they either gave access to way better equipment or some other big additional power. I just remember Master Monk was overpowered, especially with Karna or whatever the first healer girl's name is.
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  #83  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:26 PM
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First Priest you get in II is Sarah (who also shows up in Shining Wisdom with Kazin). And yes, the special promote classes are almost always completely superior to the basic promotes with the possible exception of Pegasus Knight (trade supreme mobility for a largish hit to DEF) and Sorcerer.

Sorcerer's kinda a special case, since most of the Mage/Wizard utility is derived from their spell lists and you basically want to pick the one who has the spells you want least (usually Kazin).

MMNK (Master Monk): Trades...not a whole lot (maybe a bit of max MP) for the ability to kick butt in melee combat.
BRN (Baron): Trades a tiny bit of DEF for an extra square of MOV and the ability to equip swords.
PGKN (Pegasus Knight): Trades a sizable bit of DEF for the ability to fly and ignore Terrain values (also worth noting that the one PGKN you get normally is shit...as is the non-secret Birdman).
SORC (Sorcerer): Trades the traditional mage/wiz spell list for what amounts to early Golden Sun summons. These summons pack quite the wallop, but are spendy MP wise and divvy up their damage per target.
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  #84  
Old 04-19-2014, 11:19 PM
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Thanks to this thread, I just started up Shining Force on my Genesis collection that Sega put on Steam. But man, I forgot how slow it is at the start. Well, OK, it'll be faster when I can get rid of the characters early on that I'm not going to level (Ken, Luke, that archer guy).
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  #85  
Old 04-20-2014, 11:24 AM
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So the Laser Eye battle is the best-designed battle by far up to this point in the game.

The Laser Eye itself fires a beam that does 12-15 damage to everyone, friend or foe, within it's four square range, which extends all the way across the map from the Laser Eye itself left. The Runefaust army decided to set it up on this narrow bridge so it can cover anyone trying to cross it. The Shining Force finds itself in a bad way because of this (especially if the player is going for the Duelist, the weapon you get for beating the map in 16 turns). Every six turns, the Laser Eye fires. It will pretty much kill most of your ranged attackers at this point due to low HP, so you have to be careful with your mages and such.

I was able to keep everyone healed, and had the higher HP Force members in range of the Laser Eye but outside the two Lizardmen's range of attack when the Laser Eye fired off. It didn't kill anyone, but them all at critical HP. Using medical herbs and healing from all three of my healers, I was able to get everyone healed back up as I made my way across. I only lost Ken, and that was because one of the Lizardmen attacked twice in one attack and the Pegasus Knight picked him off afterwards. Would have gotten through with no losses had that not happened. I pushed across the bridge, dodging the well-perched sniper guys as best I could, demolished the Laser Eye, and finished the battle in 13 turns and got the item.

Thoroughly enjoyed doing it, too.

Kind of don't like the between chapter battles though. They seem like filler and I wanted to heal my guys up, see what the Duelist is, and equip it. I don't want to forget to do that when I get back to controlling the Shining Force. I'm sure these weird characters will come in handy down the line, though.

Also, Zylo is awesome.

This game/series, you guys
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  #86  
Old 04-20-2014, 11:32 AM
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How's the iOS port?
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  #87  
Old 04-20-2014, 11:54 AM
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Zylo is amazing. So much so that in our household "zylo" was a verb meaning "to beat seven shades of shit out of somebody".

Glad you're enjoying it.
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  #88  
Old 04-20-2014, 12:05 PM
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Question for the experienced SF1 players: when should I promote? Max is level 12 as well as one or two others, I've got some level 11 guys, and several level 10s. Does it vary by class? Should I get them all to 15?

Basically, I'd like everyone to be able to go Zylo on the baddies
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  #89  
Old 04-20-2014, 12:30 PM
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Go to 20 if you can/don't mind grinding for the weak guys. When you promote, the game recalculates your stats within a range of average values you should have at promotion; this normally works out to stat penalties when you promote at 20 but generally helps out given the way the leveling system works.

That said, always promote casters and the dragon/robot at 20, as their spell lists go by some weird interplay between overall character level and what their class should know at what level.
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  #90  
Old 04-20-2014, 12:39 PM
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20 it is. Thanks!
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