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  #9601  
Old 09-12-2017, 03:40 PM
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I sense hostility but not anger
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  #9602  
Old 09-12-2017, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
Saw Wrath of Khan in the theater today. Unsurprisingly, it's still very, very good.
I wanted to quote this because a year or two ago, I also went and saw this movie in theaters. Having not seen it since childhood, I had the same basic experience.

But more notable was that Bride of Dracula, who had never seen it before, and dismisses nearly all of Trek as "boring," absolutely loved it. So that probably says something about the quality of the film.
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  #9603  
Old 09-12-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Büge View Post
All that just indicates to me is that Neelix is an insensitive jackass with little self-control and no respect for boundaries.
You're not totally wrong? Like, his relationship with Kess is toxic. But with regards to Tuvok, guy is like 120 years old. He's a big boy and can take care of himself. The entire thing is way more playful and innocent than you're making it out to be. I think you're remembering this, and forgetting this.
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  #9604  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:45 PM
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Off topic, but it's worth mentioning that the guy who directed Wrath of Khan, Nicholas Meyer, also did a movie called Time After Time, which is pretty entertaining in its own right. In it, H. G. Wells goes to the year 1979 to stop Jack the Ripper from committing crimes.
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  #9605  
Old 09-13-2017, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muteKi View Post
I sense hostility but not anger
"I sense he's hiding something"

^in relation to someone who is obviously lying.
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  #9606  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:38 AM
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In regards to the Spock/Tuvok/General Vulcan talks on the previous pages.

I love Spock (2nd fave behind Worf) and here is why:

There was an unplanned awesome arc through Spock that comments on Vulcans and humanity. So here it is:
Canonical first Spock appearance is in the first Pilot with Pike and it is 10 years before the 2nd pilot. Also this is the same general time frame as Trek 09. Vulcanians are shown as not logical yet. In 09 Spock's human side shows more as well, he is at war with himself. In Prime Line his mother lives, so he can go balls out logic for awhile, whereas her death brings NuSpock to a similar conclusion to Spock prime sooner. Spock being teased in school can probably be assumed to be canonical in both timelines and I believe was a plot in a TAS episode. Children are mean, even Vulcan Children. Oh and Vulcans are racist, as seen when Spock declines the invitation to the Vulcan Science Academy, becoming the first Vulcan to serve as a commissioned officer in Star Fleet.

Next we have TOS proper Spock. Logical, and generally carries himself as superior to the humans in the crew. Although on several instances the flaws of this are shown. Of course Vulcan logic is not all it's cracked up to be. They are still bound by illogical tradition (arranged marriages, american gladiator death sports). When his father visits the ship he is holding a grudge, and Amanda Grayson appeals to him, emotionally, to do the transfusion.

TMP - Spock fails the Kohlinar. Now we can assume that every other main Vulcan has passed this, hell probably even Sybok before he went of the plot. T'Pau tells him his weak human side is responsible for this distraction. Spock shows up on the ship. Kirk, ever living in the past, is beside himself when he arrives and had tried to fill the void with a different Vulcan science officer (vulcans now more participant in star fleet). Spock is distant, perhaps overcompensating for his Kolinar whiff, but cries his first tear after seeing the thoughts of Vger. The search for meaning; universal.

Next! SPock dies. Spock in TWOK is more droll, akin to his TOS days. And of course Kirk makes his eulogy.

REBIRTH: Spock relearns his identity, probably with a bit of remixing. Here we see him grooming Kim Catrall to take over for him and the arrogance of vulcan logic. It can in fact, justify anything. But was she wrong? Morally, yes, but was that the logical choice?

Now between 6 and 09 we see various other Vulcans. All pure blooded. We see that prick in DS9 who goads Sisko. Later he is suffering from Vulcan PTSD and becomes a joy killing murderer. We see Tuvok whose logic is turned to tactics, perhaps showing a ruthlessness Valeris would of had. In the past we have T'Pol showing a Vulcan lack of imagination (time travel has been disproven), conservatism and reactionism.

Moving to Prime Spock in 09 - this Spock has accepted his human side, the strength in the failings.

Now all of this is not like, super planned, but perhaps you are familiar with russian epic of Cinderella....
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  #9607  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:02 AM
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I think people are giving Tuvok a lot of shit. I'm only just starting the third series, but he's already proven to be an amazing character. There's a lot of depth to him, it's subtle compared to the rest of voyager, but it's definitely there.

He's a person who cares deeply for those around him. From the way he treats the children in "Innocence", to the way he had continually offered Suder support in controlling his violent tendencies... And I've noticed a lot of time spent with Janeway. I don't get what you guys are saying at all, I guess.


The only real bullshit episode imo, is Tuvix, because that was fucking murder. M U R D E R and Janeway is better than that.
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  #9608  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:39 AM
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I'm all for Tuvok - I'm just contrasting him to Spock
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  #9609  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:40 AM
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I meant earlier in the thread.

All of Voyager's characters are good -- even Neelix.


Well Paris can be sucked out into space as far as I'm concerned. But just him.
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  #9610  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:49 AM
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"Persistence of Vision": The episode description made me afraid this whole thing was going to be set in one of Janeway's awful Edwardian romance holo-novels (somehow, the show runners managed to come up with something even more tedious than Picard's obsession with cut-rate Raymond Chandler knock-offs), so I was pleasantly surprised by the whole thing. We have another example of Voyager's characters being genre-savvy enough to start using process of elimination to determine the root of a problem about as quickly as the audience can sort things out, which pretty much never happened in TNG. And the final showdown, where Kes suddenly develops oozing, foaming pustules all over her body, was the most unexpected bit of body horror in Trek since they blew up the proto-Borg bug man in "Conspiracy." A much better episode than I had anticipated.
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  #9611  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chud_666 View Post
I'm all for Tuvok - I'm just contrasting him to Spock
Same. I like Tuvok a lot. He might be worse than the rest of the Vulcans, but he's worse than ambrosia - that's not saying a lot. He's still pretty dope! And a big part of why he's "worse" is that from a character development perspective, he just doesn't really experience much. Spock and T'Pol are both young Vulcans who are forced to confront their identities and confront if their cultural values are really correct. Tuvok on the other hand is old, wise, and all of that stuff is well in the rear view mirror for him. He's not there to be interesting, he's there to be a known quantity and a source of strength for others, and that works too. Per your Spock analysis tho, a few remarks:

I don't think Spock failed the Kholinar? That's not how I read the scene. He passed it and was about to get his silly medal (an act that's inherently irrational for an exercise about the personal expansion of the mind) but in his moment of enlightenment, he found not what he was expecting but a wellspring of emotions. The implication he may have been the first Vulcan to actually pass the test. We hear him discuss with Valaris later, logic is only the first step to enlightenment, and learning how to integrate that into your emotions and healthily manage them is the true test of spiritual growth. This is a point that gets hammered down later too in ENT if I remember correctly when they speak to Surak.

I've got a big soft-spot for Spock personally. When I was a kid, he was my role model. When you're surrounded by a bunch of emotional and irrational kids and adults, looking towards someone like Spock who'd be unphased by such provocations and provided an example of how to be a decent and respectful adult who used rationality as his ethical bellwether rather than an appeal to often hateful religious screed was an inspiration. Later, I saw him as inspiration for handling/being mixed race as well. His growth there in rediscovering and accepting his human side was something that hit home with me too.
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  #9612  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:26 PM
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I love the premise of the Kolinahr. My read is that they rejected his application and threw some shade on his humanity aside. But: Spock ultimately embraces his human side, whereas he was the Ur Vulcan for so long.

"I am surprised"
"Why?"
"He is so... human"
"No one is perfect"
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  #9613  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:13 PM
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Wow, uh, "Threshold" -- Paris breaks the transwarp barrier, but ends up evolving into a gross alien thing and kidnaps Janeway to go Warp 10 again. Then they end up on a random planet as a pair of lizards and also they procreated. I feel like this episode needed to be either less serious or less ridiculous because it was very offputting but not in an interesting way. Also this show seems to love DNA manipulation for some reason and my suspension of disbelief doesn't really hold when it comes to fixing these kinds of DNA mutation problems.
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  #9614  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:21 PM
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Oh yes, the episode that Voyager denies exists later in the series.
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  #9615  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaer View Post
All of Voyager's characters are good -- even Neelix.

Well Paris can be sucked out into space as far as I'm concerned. But just him.
But then we couldn't have the Captain Proton episode...
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  #9616  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YangusKhan View Post
Wow, uh, "Threshold" -- Paris breaks the transwarp barrier, but ends up evolving into a gross alien thing and kidnaps Janeway to go Warp 10 again. Then they end up on a random planet as a pair of lizards and also they procreated. I feel like this episode needed to be either less serious or less ridiculous because it was very offputting but not in an interesting way. Also this show seems to love DNA manipulation for some reason and my suspension of disbelief doesn't really hold when it comes to fixing these kinds of DNA mutation problems.
Everything about it is bad
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  #9617  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torzelbaum View Post
But then we couldn't have the Captain Proton episode...
Yep, if Voyager has to exist, I need to have that as a consolation prize.
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  #9618  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaer View Post
The only real bullshit episode imo, is Tuvix, because that was fucking murder. M U R D E R and Janeway is better than that.
Thank you
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  #9619  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:33 AM
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Tuvok never had his own personal helmet with his name on it and everything.
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  #9620  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
Tuvok never had his own personal helmet with his name on it and everything.
that you know of!
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  #9621  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:36 PM
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The Wrath of Khan was very good on the big screen. So now the only Treks I haven't seen at a theater are The Motion Picture, Insurrection, and Into Darkness. I can live without the latter two, but I would love to see TMP at full-size someday. The Enterprise approach alone would be worth it.

"Tattoo": OK, so apparently aboriginal American culture was given to us by the honkiest-looking aliens in the Delta Quadrant. Hard pass.

"Cold Fire": I'm kind of surprised it took nearly a season and a half to follow up on "Caretaker." Not a great episode, but it did introduce potential for interesting plot developments involving Kes.
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  #9622  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:48 PM
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My friend insisted on skipping tattoo (yet they made me watch threshold...) and I'm glad we did going by your description. Woof.
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  #9623  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YangusKhan View Post
Wow, uh, "Threshold" --
Yeah, I think the reason people hate this episode so much is that for the first third it seems like it's going to show/say something cool about what it's like to have a transcendent experience and basically be everywhere in the universe at once, but it's just used a lead-in to a completely arbitrary Star Trek Problem. The details of The Problem are, of course, ridiculous. But I think it's the thematic bait-and-switch that makes it especially sour.
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  #9624  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Traumadore View Post
Yeah, I think the reason people hate this episode so much is that for the first third it seems like it's going to show/say something cool about what it's like to have a transcendent experience and basically be everywhere in the universe at once, but it's just used a lead-in to a completely arbitrary Star Trek Problem. The details of The Problem are, of course, ridiculous. But I think it's the thematic bait-and-switch that makes it especially sour.
I'm not sure if it's a bait and switch so much as a going off the rails, and then off a cliff.
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  #9625  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:26 PM
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It's a problem specifically because they find a way to go home through a discovery that should turn the entire show's mythos upside down, it turns out there's problems with that route that don't make any sense, then they solve the problems, but decide it's too risky anyways for no reason? So let's forget about this easy way of getting home and pretend it never happened.

The body-horror is also revolting and off-putting if you're not into that.


I actually don't think it's all that bad of an episode, because it's merely nonsensical, and Star Trek has frequently been more nonsensical and unscientific. I reserve my contempt and outrage for stuff like the episodes of Star Trek that are inexplicably racist or sexist, or when the show gets far lazier in the writing department like a recap episode, or let's just rehash a TOS episode. I actually kinda enjoyed it because it's so dumb and silly and the body-horror nonsense is great to get squeamish over. Def a bad episode tho if you're in Star Trek for Serious Business Only.
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  #9626  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:13 PM
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"Maneuvers": Star Trek really seems to do best when it builds on light continuity and explores logical consequences, which is precisely what this episode did. For all the hand-wringing about preserving the Prime Directive, Voyager has already contaminated the Delta Quadrant with its mere presence, and this episode did a good job of driving that point home. I like that Voyager has a reputation for being a wandering disaster, but it's even better to see its unwitting influence in action, thrown into high gear by Seska. The only sour note in this episode was the final knife twist transmission at the end, which piled on a little too much in frankly pandering attempt to keep the stakes high. They were high enough already! It's OK! Let the plot advance on its own steam, dudes. Anyway, a good episode despite that.
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  #9627  
Old 09-15-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
I don't think Spock failed the Kholinar? That's not how I read the scene. He passed it and was about to get his silly medal (an act that's inherently irrational for an exercise about the personal expansion of the mind) but in his moment of enlightenment, he found not what he was expecting but a wellspring of emotions. The implication he may have been the first Vulcan to actually pass the test. We hear him discuss with Valaris later, logic is only the first step to enlightenment, and learning how to integrate that into your emotions and healthily manage them is the true test of spiritual growth. This is a point that gets hammered down later too in ENT if I remember correctly when they speak to Surak.
Of all things, this tabletop RPG supplement basically takes this as its read on Vulcans, that essentially Vulcans very much do have emotions but admitting such is nigh-on scatological for them, and their emphasis on logic and the seemingly irrational or aesthetic aspects of their culture (observing religion, playing the harp) are all essentially socially-approved ritualized pressure valves for them, which they would never be gauche enough to admit aloud. I recall being quite impressed by the writing in that book, but then Ken Hite is one of the RPG greats.
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  #9628  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe McGuffin View Post
Of all things, this tabletop RPG supplement basically takes this as its read on Vulcans, that essentially Vulcans very much do have emotions but admitting such is nigh-on scatological for them, and their emphasis on logic and the seemingly irrational or aesthetic aspects of their culture (observing religion, playing the harp) are all essentially socially-approved ritualized pressure valves for them, which they would never be gauche enough to admit aloud. I recall being quite impressed by the writing in that book, but then Ken Hite is one of the RPG greats.
I always found Spock's conflicts/tribulations with his emotions fascinating. Since he's half-human, the operating assumption is that that somehow makes him less capable of handling his emotions than his pure-blooded counterparts. And indeed, we are regaled with stories of how he had a hard time as a child. But from the beginning we see that Vulcans are not emotionless beings. From as early as Time Amok we see that they all have them, they're just better at repressing it than Spock and even have evolved physiological mechanisms to help them do so. But if Spock's philosophical evolution is indeed the more correct path, and that logic is only the beginning to wisdom and enlightenment, then maybe he's not actually less adept. Maybe being human gives him a better hold/control over his emotions so that he can coexist and learn to harness them rather than simply repress. And since Vulcans were originally an extremely passionate and emotional people, maybe that makes Spock more Vulcan than regular Vulcans.

This whole idea that the outsider can be more of a thing than the insiders is something that comes up in Star Trek a lot. It's most noticeable with Worf, because that is his entire character arc. But it happens all over Star Trek really in more subtle ways. Data at times exemplifying the best of humanity or Geordi being able to see/appreciate what others can't. It's the idea that being separate from the group gives you a different perspective and to see and evaluate things that insiders can't. So Worf can see when his fellow Klingons turn a blind eye to corruption that their honor shouldn't allow, or Data can demonstrate a compassion and appreciation towards living things that transcends the ability of the living because he is all consumed in trying to understand them where as regular carbon based life forms don't ever think about their own existence like that. Spock then, not really being a Vulcan, puts him in a position where he has to evaluate what he has to do to become more Vulcan, and also frees him from societal burdens and taboo that allows him to better explore the very nature of his species and if they're handling their emotions in the best way. It's an idea that speaks to me, especially because it's something that I've observed and contemplated amongst my own culture or just in life or in my studies in general.
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  #9629  
Old 09-16-2017, 12:54 PM
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"Resistance": The story of a senile old man locked in a struggle with fascists who wear Darth Vader's leather should have been a lot more touching than this. The episode almost worked, but it needed another round of revisions. Dumb writing choices like the bad guy stormtroopers just scuttling away after their boss got stabbed and letting the alien intruders get away scott-free really sucked the air from this one.

"Prototype": OK, this is more like it. My first instinct when Janeway started spouting off about the Prime Directive was to think back on the Kazon's internal conflicts caused by Voyager and say, "Yeah, whatever." But this episode did a great job of showing why the Prime Directive exists. The droid-men went from being Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun To Be With to ruthless lady-snatching pragmatists to straight-up obsessives with genocidal war determined to overrun the galaxy with eternal, self-perpetuating conflict. Very good stuff.
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  #9630  
Old 09-16-2017, 09:28 PM
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"Galaxy's Child"

God dammit, Geordi, you just kept piling on the creep for all of that episode. I'm shocked that we didn't learn that the last scene WASN'T a holodeck simulation where the guest character is laughing about how she felt rightly violated.
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