Star Trek Discovery - SPOILERS AHOY

[SpoonyBardOL]

I admit, the episode nearly got me with the whole 'Saru is totes dying guys really' thing. Not sure how I feel about it being a misdirection for the purpose of neutering one of his defining traits, though.

And I guess next time we're going to be focused on saving Tilly from Mushroom Narnia.

[WisteriaHysteria]

I HATED Saru's entire deathbed scene, because it was suuuuper long, and I was bored stiff knowing it wasn't real. I mean, I didn't know it wasn't real, but c'mon. They weren't killing off their best actor/character four episodes in.

BUT! If it'll get rid of dumb ganglything, I'm A-Ok with it. Saru's defining trait is that he's Doug Jones doing Doug Jones things. If we're talking personality, his defining traits are that he's studious, measured, cautious, but intellectually curious, has a sharp wit, is compassionate, and is rigorously by-the-book. He's got a lot more going on for him than a dumbo gimmick that boils down to "I'm scared, guys!" as a metaphorical canary in the mines.

Season 2 seems hell-bent on "fixing" a lot of the poorly thought out or inconsistent ideas from Season 1, for better or worse. I didn't need Pike to issue an order to rip out the holo projectors from the walls. But freeing Saru from a poorly conceived plot device so that he can further grow as a character seems like a pretty good idea to me.

[Kirin]

I gotta admit I pretty much lost it at Space Oddity. Sure it's one of those "some folks in the 23rd century just *happen* to be really into some pop culture from our lifetime" moments, but I don't care.

[Positronic Brain]

Originally Posted by Kirin

I gotta admit I pretty much lost it at Space Oddity.

Same.

I'm also glad that this is a streaming series, because the episodes can be as long as they need to. And while some scenes could be trimmed, sure, I'm glad this version of the episode exists - both the fake death and the Space Oddity scenes got to me.

I just hope they don't make Saru suddenly start making too reckless decisions and putting his crew in danger unnecessarily.

[Sprite]

That scene was dumb but I’m pretty invested in Saru’s backstory now.

[Gaer]

Re Fourth episode:

I actually adored the “death scene” for Saru for one reason: it makes sense for how Kelpians have been oppressed for their entire existence as a species. Losing one’s ganglia is clearly maturation into adulthood. Of course their oppressors/predators would “cull” any kelpian who no longer innately fears. And of course their society would think any kelpian lacking constant underlying fear had gone mad. Especially with the pain and suffering they go through this traumatic time. (Imagine human puberty if it happened in a week? Christ.)

This is a huge thing for both the species and the Federation and they did an excellent job of making the viewer fill in the cracks in terms of the full picture and ramifications. Saru is literally the first of his species in recorded history to make it into adulthood. No one has any idea, Federation or otherwise. I bet even the Ba’ur have forgotten the reason why culls happened when they did.


And now knowing this, what will Starfleet do?

[Kirin]

According to the preview, we'll find out the answer to that last question in Ep 6.

Meanwhile I'm not sure what I want to say about Ep 5 that's not a spoiler but damn I love this show. Okay so they may be pushing their quota of fake death scenes right now but it's all so well done that I don't care. Both Orville and Disco keep making me cry, but Disco's tears feel a lot better earned.

[Gaer]

Another neat thing I just realised is that it was so dramatic and overwhelming because natural selection was doing it’s damnedness to get anyone to maturation. Gradual puberty/maturation/whatever you call it wasn’t cutting it because the Ba’ur were interfering and so (forgive me for anthropomorphising) Nature basically threw up her hands and said “FUCK IT, WE’RE DOING IT LIVE AT WARP 9.9.

All that trauma and suffering for poor Saru cos Life just had to Find A Way.

[WisteriaHysteria]

With regards to Saru's people, I wouldn't liken it to sexual maturity. It honestly seems more like reaching menopause. And I think if you accept that this is a natural stage in his species' life cycle, it would probably match up better as an analogy as well. A herbivorous species preyed upon by predators losing their survival instinct once they've gotten too old could be a factor naturally selected for giving their herd a better chance of survival if they aren't carrying around the dead weight of the elderly. Or that the loss of that survival mechanism made for the elderly of his species to better transition into a caretaker or guidance role in their society. However, I wouldn't necessarily chalk this development as a natural life cycle thing; I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Kelpians were genetically manipulated to keep docile/subservient by this predator-species.

With regards to the question of "what will Starfleet do?" I assume they're inclined to do nothing. But they'll probably find a reason to interfere anyways. My guess: the red angel business will lead them to Saru's people, and helping his people out will be a natural consequence of them just being there like we've seen the other two occasions.

[SpoonyBardOL]

Huh, they really are intent on undoing the first season's questionable decisions, aren't they?

It might've been a bit too easy, but I can't say I'm sorry to see Culber back. Though there's probably gonna be some awkward scene between him and Ash in the future, no doubt.

[Gaer]

My point is that that everyone including the Kelpians themselves were incorrect about them being “just” a prey species. It has been an excuse for their lot millennia and things just got a whole lot more complicated for the Federation. Ethically speaking, it is wrong for Starfleet to try and prevent Saru from contacting his people.

Do not mistake “maturity” or “adulthood” with “sexual maturity”. Human children and teens can pro create, but adults they are not.

[Sprite]

Michelle Yeoh is perfect and I love her. Cannot wait for her spin-off.

Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL

Huh, they really are intent on undoing the first season's questionable decisions, aren't they?

Yeah, I think season one they were trying for some sort of edgy sci fi Game of Thrones where Anyone Can Die, but now they just want to be a Star Trek show.

I find Ash incredibly dull and wish he were gone. There’s no universe where it makes sense to have him around the family of someone he murdered, let alone the person he actually murdered.

[Positronic Brain]

On the one hand I'm glad they are hitting the undo button for those stupid things they did in the first season - but for some reason that I recognize is completely irrational it also angers me. Undoing this stuff so soon (and so easily!) feels like an implicit admission that all those awful creative decisions weren't needed in the first place.

Oh, well, I have my hairy klingons and the lovable gay couple back. And the show feels like Trek now. So I'll take it.

[estragon]

They were pretty explicit in extra-textual materials that Culber's story was not over, and in the text itself he continued to appear after his death.

I won't watch season 2 until it's all over, but presuming that's what people are talking about, if Culber did come back I think it's less a case of undoing a questionable decision and more a case of just finishing a storyline that was always still in progress. The first season left a lot of serialization hooks, and this was one of the most blatant.

[Gaer]

So I’m going to put this it here now: I really want Empress Georgou to redeem herself. I want her to be immersed in this universe and gradually realise and (perhaps unwillingly) absorb the ideal that Star Trek has always striven for. That hey, maybe not having to constantly look over your shoulder and be expecting a backstabbing is pretty good, actually.

She’s never not going to be, well, her. But I want her to become better. I want her to see that the Federation isn’t weak. That kindness is strong. That altruism and love aren’t going to get you killed. That it is worth protecting. And sure, it’s going to be a struggle for her. We have already seen signs of it, and I really hope this is what they are going for. Because that story is a lot more interesting and complex than “The Inevitable Betrayal” that we constantly see with mirror universe shit.

[Peach]

Everything I said about Section 31 in the other thread still stands, but Tyler having a combadge and Pike being confused about it was clever.

I really liked that episode! It was the first episode that felt balanced in a while - not tilting ahead at breakneck speed, and not spending excrutiating amounts of time with people being sad about their space friends. The serial stuff was at the right level, and it told a solid Trek story with good character hooks.

I'm also really liking Ansom Mount's Pike. He's supposed to be the platonic ideal of a Star Trek captain (which carries with it some pretty big normative baggage, I'll admit!), which isn't the most dramatically rich role. But his performance has been good, and he's been excellent at facilitating the problem solverz stuff and as a bouncing-off point for the rest of the cast*. Hell, I'm kind of interested in seeing his arc with Captain Dickass up until the latter's inevitable betrayal (and last-minute redemption), in spite of my derision of Section 31's "u cnat have a coin wthout 2 faces, u evre thnk about that>" shtick.

*Hot-take, he's kind of Jellico-lite.

[Gaer]

OH HEY IT LOOKS LIKE I WAS RIGHT EXCEPT THE SPHERE WAS STANDING IN FOR MOTHER NATURE

[SpoonyBardOL]

Is it me, or did the Ba'ul seem an awful lot like that tar monster who killed Tasha Yar?

[Gaer]

Might want to spoiler the mention of Ba’ul. But while they look similar, the Ba’ul are an underwater species, rather than an bioengineered life form. They are, however, dedicated to The Aesthetic though.

[WisteriaHysteria]

haha, I am all for polite spoiler tagging but it seems like overkill if you can't even say the name of a species, especially in a thread that already warns those who enter with the title that there will be spoilers inside.

I find this development of the Kelpians being kinda boring tbh. But it's better than some fan theories I've read over the last few weeks, such as the Ba'ul ARE Kelpians! Also, the episode kept talking about 'evolution' with regards to the Kelpian life cycle, but that's not how evolution worksssssss

[Googleshng]

[SpoonyBardOL]

To be fair, the franchise as a whole doesn't have a great track record with using that term properly.

[WisteriaHysteria]

Disco got renewed for a third season, so it seems like we’re in this for the long haul.

[WisteriaHysteria]

I did not expect a return to Talos IV but I really should have.

[YangusKhan]

I have been slowly continuing season 1 of this show with paxclara, and this

Originally Posted by Sprite

Yeah, I think season one they were trying for some sort of edgy sci fi Game of Thrones where Anyone Can Die, but now they just want to be a Star Trek show

is probably the only sentiment that's really making me feel like sticking with the show at all. I don't like its tone very much, I don't like its direction very much, and all the stuff with the Klingons is just excruciating to sit through. We're only on episode 4! But it sounds like season 2 is somewhat better??

[Kirin]

Originally Posted by YangusKhan

But it sounds like season 2 is somewhat better??

S2 has a lot more of the traditional Star Trek tone/feel, while still weaving it together with ongoing plots. I enjoyed S1 myself, but a lot of people who didn't gel with it are liking S2 a lot better.

Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria

I did not expect a return to Talos IV but I really should have.

Those dudes make me uneasy in general because in the hands of poorer writers, "anything could be an illusion" is too much of a "get out of plot difficulties free" ticket. But the plotting this season has been pretty aces so far, so I expect it'll be fine.

[SpoonyBardOL]

"Say goodbye Spock."

"Goodbye Spock."

[WisteriaHysteria]

That was a largely predictable episode, but entertaining. I know the Michael Burnam character is a long-view thing where we see a character grow up into a respectable captain. But uh, having both Georgiou and now Pike around, really just hammers home how much I'd rather see a show dedicated to them being our main character/captain full time. They're both sooooo gooood.

The opening of this week's episode was jarring and completely out of place, but I didn't hate it? At the very least, it served as a good way to shut down DISCO-detractors who nitpick the dumb stuff like the show's visuals. This is a great way of saying, "These things both happened, they're both valid, we're moving on now."

I like this interpretation of Spock a lot. And I thought he had great chemistry with Michael.

I would 100% watch a Capt Pike show as he runs around on the Enterprise. I'd rather they explore new ideas, but if we have to mine old ones, this is a good one to do so. I cannot stress how much Anson Mount is hitting it out of the ballpark this season.

[Positronic Brain]

I think they missed a great opportunity by not titling this episode "Say Goodbye, Spock".

Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria

The opening of this week's episode was jarring and completely out of place, but I didn't hate it?

I liked it. It was very ballsy. I feared they would very unsubtly foreshadow Pike's ultimate fate in Talos IV but they didn't, so yay for that.

I am not a fan of the Tyler and Doctor Hot's subplot. That brawl felt very un-Trek. That said, I do like that the character's resurrection has consequences, and I suppose being an easy source for drama is better than being fridged, but I just want Stamets and Doctor Hot to be happy

I'm still not sold on this Spock, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt. I'm glad we have the big secret of how Michael hurt him out of the way, though. I'm glad that it was nothing we couldn't have inferred from the context of the characters instead of some convoluted dark reveal. All in all, I think the writers are being more self restrained than in the last season and that's very good.

(by the way, Spock, mind melding with an unidentified entity that once appeared to you in your childhood might not have been a very smart move)

Any guesses on the Red Angel's identity? It has to be somebody who is close to Michael and Spock. My money is on an older Spock, back from the Abramsverse. But given the focus on Talos IV, I wonder if it won't end up being a post-Menagerie Christopher Pike. And while I groaned at the reveal of it being from the future and this being another frickin' time war (now against time traveling Reapers from Mass Effect) at least for now the writers are handling this better than the disaster that was the Cold Temporal War in Enterprise.

One last thing - somebody somewhere will use these re-casted Pike and Vina to write an essay dissecting the evolution of gender beauty standards in the Western world in the last 50 years, and I'd kill to read it.

[SpoonyBardOL]

Honestly I mostly hope that the big threat from the future isn't the Borg. I would like it to be a familiar race, but something unexpected. Maybe even a former friend turned enemy. Maybe even the, ugh, Logic Extremists. Just, not the Borg.