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  #61  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Zef View Post
To me, the best Superman stories are those where his powers are irrelevant to the conflict at hand --where he's heroic because of his moral fortitude and his ability to inspire unyielding hope in other people.
Exactly. His archenemy is Lex Luthor, a human that Superman could pummel into jelly or incinerate from miles away if he wanted to - but he doesn't, because he wants to find a better way to help people.
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  #62  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:03 PM
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I always thought the Superman who fell out of the sky perfect and pristine was boring and unbelievable.
He hasn't been written that way in 50 years, so you'd have to be pretty damned old to remember that.

The point is that his moral core is shaped by the Kents, who are typically the ones written as so salt-of-the-earth that they come across as borderline unrealistic.

Except in this movie, Superman's main moral influence, Pa Kent, is a complete fucking douchebag. I can't stress that enough - if you screw over Pa Kent as a character, you wind up screwing up Clark. And that's the biggest mistake the movie made, because Clark was explicitly told by his father that it's more important to stay hidden than it is to save a life. That is INSANELY fucked up. Honestly, I'm not sure they could've come back from that even with a perfect last act.
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  #63  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:04 PM
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Part of me wonders how much of this was studio interference. Snyder avoided so many things to avoid reminding people of the old Superman movies, and I've even read that he championed for the red shorts but the studio ultimately shot him down.

It's unfortunate that DC seems to want to distance themselves from what Marvel's doing. I feel like the choice of a more serious tone is a conscious decision to contrast with Marvel's more comicbooky feel. Even the way they're going about their teamup movie is in reverse to Marvel, giving me the impression they don't want to risk being seen as being derivative of Marvel, and that they want to draw as few comparisons between their movies as possible.

edit: Yeah I was going to mention earlier that they screwed the Kents storyline bad. I can get being afraid they'll take your son away--they played that line in Smallville too. But telling him specifically that he should have let a bus of kids die? That's some shitty parenting. And then just kind of letting himself get killed in that tornado while Teenage But Looking 30 Clark just stares on because Pa Kent has some kind of stupid point to make? Ugh.
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  #64  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:12 PM
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It's not just the Marvel comparison, it's that Dark Knight towers over EVERYTHING, and the studio logically assumes that since that made a billion dollars* and Green Lantern bombed it's better to go dark.

If GL hadn't flopped I guaran-damn-tee you they wouldn't have instituted a no-jokes rule going forward.

* - And, remember, TDK missed the big international dollar explosion by about a year.

Last edited by Sven; 10-16-2014 at 07:33 PM.
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  #65  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ghosttaster View Post
I mean- Superman fighting an Evil Superman? What could be more boring than that?
Are you calling Bizarro boring?
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  #66  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:37 PM
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To be fair to Snyder about one thing - people were complaining for year that they just wanted to see Superman hit something, especially after Returns. Of course, those are the same idiots that jacked off at Superman going full-tilt on Darkseid at the end of JLU, so that Snyder listened to them was another issue in and of itself.
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  #67  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:41 PM
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You am calling Bizarro exciting?
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  #68  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:44 PM
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Now an unintentionally hilariously super gritty Superman V Bizarro movie, I can get behind.
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  #69  
Old 10-16-2014, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
To be fair to Snyder about one thing - people were complaining for year that they just wanted to see Superman hit something, especially after Returns. Of course, those are the same idiots that jacked off at Superman going full-tilt on Darkseid at the end of JLU, so that Snyder listened to them was another issue in and of itself.
One of the weirdest things about that fight was how, not too long before, they gave Clark and Billy an entire uninhabited city to demolish in their fight, but when fighting Darkseid, they plowed through office buildings without a care. I remember very specifically thinking that media representations of thoughtless collateral damage would have been influenced by 9/11, but, guess not.
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  #70  
Old 10-16-2014, 08:01 PM
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And then just kind of letting himself get killed in that tornado while Teenage But Looking 30 Clark just stares on because Pa Kent has some kind of stupid point to make? Ugh.
Which is why Pa Kent dying from a heart attack in All-Star Superman was so meaningful: even with all his powers, Clark couldn't do anything to stop it.
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  #71  
Old 10-16-2014, 08:13 PM
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I get that, but Pa Kent's just too fun a character to kill off (that iconic, later altered cover, of him having a beer with his dad sort of sums up why you need to keep him around, because he's pretty much the only person on earth Clark gets to relax around), even to make a point. Have Superman befriend a cancer victim or something.
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  #72  
Old 10-16-2014, 08:35 PM
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Smallville still beats out MoS for Dumbest Pa Kent Death.
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  #73  
Old 10-16-2014, 09:57 PM
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(Just saying before these comments, I'm not singling you out Sven, it just so happened your points/comments were the ones I wanted to respond to. :P)

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It's not just the Marvel comparison, it's that Dark Knight towers over EVERYTHING, and the studio logically assumes that since that made a billion dollars* and Green Lantern bombed it's better to go dark.

If GL hadn't flopped I guaran-damn-tee you they wouldn't have instituted a no-jokes rule going forward.
But Green Lantern also was still impacted, though. Much llike Fan4: Rise of Silver Surfer, a non-Marvel Studios Marvel movie, we can't have the goofy looking alien menace appear like in the comics. So instead of a planet eating giant fat guy, they gave us a cloud in Silver Surfer. Instead of a giant alien space bug, we got...a cloud. Plus, I think GL was just so much of a damn mess because it tried to do too much in one movie. Establish your character first, worry about talking about space cops and universe-threatening enemies later. Also, Hal Jordan sucks. Even if Reynolds seemed to be trying to play Kyle Raynor and no one stopped him.

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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
To be fair to Snyder about one thing - people were complaining for year that they just wanted to see Superman hit something, especially after Returns. Of course, those are the same idiots that jacked off at Superman going full-tilt on Darkseid at the end of JLU, so that Snyder listened to them was another issue in and of itself.
Well, that JLU fight was awesome, and you know it. The DCAU had restraint enough to only rarely do something like that. Other than "Clash", or when he fought some one like Lobo, Supes tended to hold back. Really, Superman Lifts I thought had the right tone to it, but so much of the stupid crap that ruined that movie was because it had that baggage of being the sequel to a then-25 year old movie (which made no sense, because even the time lines don't work). Also, both MoS and SR loved their Jesus metaphors, which was also stupid.

However, both GL and Superman Returns had the problems of being in production hell forever. I think the problem is and largely has been studio interference. Marvel Studios seems to have generally more freedom the make the movies and they manage to get them made a hell of a lot faster because of it.

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I get that, but Pa Kent's just too fun a character to kill off (that iconic, later altered cover, of him having a beer with his dad sort of sums up why you need to keep him around, because he's pretty much the only person on earth Clark gets to relax around), even to make a point. Have Superman befriend a cancer victim or something.
Yup. Superman is seemingly one of the very few superheroes that actually has living parents. Okay, his birth parents not so much, but his connection to them is minor. It makes a big difference. Of course bad writers like to kill one or both of his parents off for cheap pathos.
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  #74  
Old 10-16-2014, 10:27 PM
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The point is that his moral core is shaped by the Kents, who are typically the ones written as so salt-of-the-earth that they come across as borderline unrealistic.

Except in this movie, Superman's main moral influence, Pa Kent, is a complete fucking douchebag. I can't stress that enough - if you screw over Pa Kent as a character, you wind up screwing up Clark. And that's the biggest mistake the movie made, because Clark was explicitly told by his father that it's more important to stay hidden than it is to save a life. That is INSANELY fucked up. Honestly, I'm not sure they could've come back from that even with a perfect last act.
I don't get this either. Pa Kent teaches Supes everything he should in MoS. How to deal with ignorance, or to hide his power, how to be a good person and to turn the other cheek. The only thing remotely worth bristling about is when Pa told Supes maybe he should have let everyone on the bus die, but then he recanted that later and admitted he didn't have all the answers and just wants to keep his son safe. And I like that. Again, hate it when these characters are Mary Sues. And while everyone is so angry at the way Pa dies, I actually loved it. Very visceral, and it has Supes confront his helplessness head on instead of how it usually happens in comics (he doesn't have to face it directly because it happens with a car crash or heart attack while he's away). It's an event that helps steel his heart and teach Supes the values of self-sacrifice.

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...bad writers like to kill one or both of his parents off for cheap pathos.
I don't think that's the case at all. People rag on N52 Supes but I think he's great. There's an ongoing contrast at the moment with Earth 2 Supes that had a very traditional Ma & Pa still alive upbringing. And the comparison of Earth 2 Supes with Earth 0 is that Earth 0 is stronger, partially because he's had to deal with the adversity of losing his parents early in life. Meanwhile, Earth 2 Supes never had to deal with personal loss like that - so when he must finally confront those issues late in life, it affects him and undermines his ability to do his job, and Earth 2 is worse off for it.
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  #75  
Old 10-16-2014, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Again, hate it when these characters are Mary Sues.
I'll be honest, I don't really get how you're using "Mary Sues" here. I guess I have a very particular definition in my head, and I don't see how it applies to Pa or Clark.

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And while everyone is so angry at the way Pa dies, I actually loved it. Very visceral, and it has Supes confront his helplessness head on instead of how it usually happens in comics (he doesn't have to face it directly because it happens with a car crash or heart attack while he's away).
Well, one, the whole problem is that Superman isn't helpless. It's well within his power to save Pa, but the movie doesn't want him to. Whereas in All-Star, it's so sudden and so distant that Clark can't help him. That is helplessness.

Two, even if he's not there on the scene, he still has to face the death of the only father he has ever known. That's pretty direct by itself.

Three, if anything, Pa's death only reinforces his lesson in the earlier scene: it's definitely better to let people die than blow your secret identity. There's "concern for your son's safety," and then there's "contrived and misguided moral emphasis."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
Yup. Superman is seemingly one of the very few superheroes that actually has living parents.
Thing is--and I actually didn't realize this for a long time, myself--this was a post-Crisis development. Pre-Crisis, they're around when he's Superboy, of course, but they both die after he graduates high school.
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  #76  
Old 10-16-2014, 11:21 PM
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I can't agree at all about Nu52 Supes being good, let alone in anyway an improvement on what came before. There have been some good stories, but those seem to have happened despite the new status quo rather than due to it.

Other than liking the two comics I know of where Pa Kent dies, I agree with Sven about him. He is very important to Clark, much more so than Jor-El. I like the relationship that Clark had with him in the comics and in general from '86-08. I also like the story in which he dies. It is maybe not the best decision from an ongoing story perspective, but it is a good comic.
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  #77  
Old 10-16-2014, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
[bizarro]
You am not understanding Bizarro very well at all. Me understand Bizarro much better.
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  #78  
Old 10-16-2014, 11:47 PM
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Me am confounded by Bizarro worst of all! Me know so, so little!
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  #79  
Old 10-17-2014, 12:22 AM
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Say what you want about Pa Kent in that MoS, but Kevin Costner was awesome casting.
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  #80  
Old 10-17-2014, 12:25 AM
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Are you calling Bizarro boring?
Bizarro ≠ Evil Superman
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  #81  
Old 10-17-2014, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Olli T View Post
Say what you want about Pa Kent in that MoS, but Kevin Costner was awesome casting.
Yeah. Costner pulls off that small-town Americana charm better than just about anyone else.

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Thing is--and I actually didn't realize this for a long time, myself--this was a post-Crisis development. Pre-Crisis, they're around when he's Superboy, of course, but they both die after he graduates high school.
I don't even think Bryne used them all that much, but after he left them alive people realised just how great they were as supporting characters. Then they played pretty big roles in Lois & Clark and STAS and they suddenly felt as much a part of the regular stories as Lois and Jimmy. Hell, even moreso than Jimmy, but that could just be my longstanding hatred of Jimmy's continued existence (outside of the Kirby stuff).

There's another reason why Returns screwed up by essentially rebooting everything back to 1980: they were trying to sell that to a generation of people who'd grown up on the Byrne / L&C / STAS version of the mythos and who didn't think much of the old status quo. Believe me, I heaved a BIG sigh of relief the first time they showed the LexCorp logo for BvS.
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  #82  
Old 10-17-2014, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
(Just saying before these comments, I'm not singling you out Sven, it just so happened your points/comments were the ones I wanted to respond to. :P)
'S'okay.


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But Green Lantern also was still impacted, though. Much llike Fan4: Rise of Silver Surfer, a non-Marvel Studios Marvel movie, we can't have the goofy looking alien menace appear like in the comics. So instead of a planet eating giant fat guy, they gave us a cloud in Silver Surfer.
The gag, of course, is that the producers picked the wrong Galactus story up - the "cloud" is pretty damn close to the Ultimate version of Galactus.

Quote:
Instead of a giant alien space bug, we got...a cloud.
However, both of these were terrible ideas so that didn't bother me.

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Plus, I think GL was just so much of a damn mess because it tried to do too much in one movie. Establish your character first, worry about talking about space cops and universe-threatening enemies later. Also, Hal Jordan sucks. Even if Reynolds seemed to be trying to play Kyle Raynor and no one stopped him.
It's definitely poorer for being so rushed. I think it's very doable (GL: First Flight got a pretty good take on the origin done in 80 minutes), but that movie was a failure from the top levels on down. Hell, even the marketing was shitty - I flipped over to Wikipedia to check the running time and was reminded of how all the posters were green-on-blue, which made them look super-washed-out in real life.

I do give them some credit for REALIZING how awful Hal is and writing him as Kyle. As noted in the Flash thread, that tends to happen with Barry / Wally as well. About the only one who doesn't realise that is Johns; unfortunately, his vote counts or a LOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cortbassist89 View Post
Smallville still beats out MoS for Dumbest Pa Kent Death.
As noted, I've blocked just about everything about Smallville from my brain other than Erica Durance's chest. My life is better this way.
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  #83  
Old 10-17-2014, 06:52 AM
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Default MARVEL HAS MADE BETTER MOVIES THAN DC EVER WILL.

I'm gonna ignore everything in this thread said so far to say: I'm actually pretty excited about the idea of a suicide squad movie, based on how totally awesome the Suicide Squad episode of Justice League was.

You guys remember Justice League, right?

Task Force X.

That said, Amanda Waller needs to be in it, and not as an attractive young woman. This is not negotiable.

Last edited by BEAT; 10-17-2014 at 07:00 AM. Reason: BUT NO MARVEL CARTOON HAS EVER COME CLOSE TO ANY PART OF THE DCAU.
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  #84  
Old 10-17-2014, 07:28 AM
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That said, Amanda Waller needs to be in it, and not as an attractive young woman. This is not negotiable.
As noted, they've probably already called Viola Davis. I don't think anyone else would even have a shot.

(That said... if they went with Gina Torres, I'd live with that.)
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  #85  
Old 10-17-2014, 07:46 AM
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BUT NO MARVEL CARTOON HAS EVER COME CLOSE TO ANY PART OF THE DCAU.
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  #86  
Old 10-17-2014, 07:48 AM
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Okay while that IS pretty great I stand by my statement.
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  #87  
Old 10-17-2014, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
As noted, they've probably already called Viola Davis. I don't think anyone else would even have a shot.

(That said... if they went with Gina Torres, I'd live with that.)
I think CCH Pounder. could probably get the job done.

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  #88  
Old 10-17-2014, 08:03 AM
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They made a show where all the heroes are cute, lighthearted versions of themselves, but the Punisher is still just the Punisher.


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  #89  
Old 10-17-2014, 08:23 AM
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Isn't that the cartoon where Thanos retires to raise chickens?
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  #90  
Old 10-17-2014, 08:24 AM
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Whiplash?


I mean, the rest, sure, I can see that working... but Whiplash?
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