The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about books

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1891  
Old 10-17-2018, 08:28 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peklo View Post
That's my takeaway of the original run of the book too. I'm 100+ issues into it, and it's honestly a pretty weak book for most of that time with Lee and Thomas at the writing helm. One standout exception is Avengers #16, an interstitial issue where Captain America and Thor are off doing their own thing, and Iron Man is pushing forward a reinvention of the team roster in order to give himself and other senior members like the Wasp and Giant-Man some time off.
Interesting.

Aside from some forgettable Onslaught cross-overs from the 90s back when I was buying floppies in real time, I think the only issues of the original Avengers I've read is the big silver age cross over with X-Men (Avengers 49-53 and X-Men 43-45).

That gave me a positive impression, because those issues happened to coincide with a lot of Roster Drama. Especially compared to the X-Men of that era, it felt like a much more vibrant book with people coming and going and thoughtful team dynamics. Better than silver age X-Men is not a high bar, though.

. . . now that I think about it, I've read a few more issues for similar reasons and they've all been Roster Drama: when Beast joins the team (to kind of tie a bow on reading his Amazing Adventures/Hulk storyline) and when Dazzler shows up to Jan's recruitment drive for women members (honestly a very fun issue).
Reply With Quote
  #1892  
Old 10-17-2018, 08:40 PM
Peklo's Avatar
Peklo Peklo is online now
Love is OGR
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Finland
Pronouns: They/Them, She/Her
Posts: 955
Default

It picks up by a lot towards the latter parts of Thomas's run, when he starts exploring more interesting ideas narratively (even when they're this), and the material becomes elevated by artists like John Buscema and Neal Adams (there's an X-Men parallel for you). I don't have comprehensive first-hand experience with it yet but into the '70s it becomes much more interesting in general, thanks to writers like Steve Englehart.
Reply With Quote
  #1893  
Old 10-17-2018, 08:46 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

I honestly feel like Roy Thomas gets a bit of a bad rap because it sounds like he wanted to do more dynamic things on his books but Stan Lee would shoot him down constantly. He was pushing for more international members during his run, but he wasn't allowed. He also gets to explore more toward the end of the X-Men run (Sunfire was one of his potential international members), even if it's cancelled soon after it starts to kind of get interesting. So I think there's also probably a loosening of editorial reigns involved with things generally picking up for problem books like Avengers and X-Men in the 70s.
Reply With Quote
  #1894  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:05 PM
Peklo's Avatar
Peklo Peklo is online now
Love is OGR
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Finland
Pronouns: They/Them, She/Her
Posts: 955
Default

It's complex for me. On one hand he was this whiz-kid who grew up on comics and imprinted hard on the Lee style of comics storytelling and tone, and was hired and given his effective protege status because he was able to so naturally work as an extension to that, so many of Lee's hangups by inheritance extend to him... but also, yeah, he did a lot of stuff both as a writer and an editor that pushed the books into new directions that diverged from the old. I think he saw the limitations of publisher-owned creative work and tried his best to make things work within that field.
Reply With Quote
  #1895  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:20 AM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

Avengers Forever is hilarious because it's a 12 issues limited series, and eight issues in it comes to a grinding halt for two full issues that are basically just monologues where characters explain their involvement in two separate time traveling conspiracies, all in order for Kurt Busiek to resolve a laundry list of dozens of continuity inconsistencies and loose plot threads that have been bothering him for decades.

You can practically hear Kurt Busiek audibly sigh with relief as he offers an explanation for why the original android human torch accidentally had two mutually exclusive corpses.

And it has that 90s Carlos Pacheco art, so for those two issues it's like the most lavishly illustrated fan wiki of all time.
Reply With Quote
  #1896  
Old 10-22-2018, 02:55 PM
Pizzarino Sbarro's Avatar
Pizzarino Sbarro Pizzarino Sbarro is offline
Senhor Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,774
Default

Sounds like a blast. I could never begrudge anyone for producing something like that.
Reply With Quote
  #1897  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:13 PM
Büge's Avatar
Büge Büge is offline
Toothsome!
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TO, ON, CA
Pronouns: She/Her
Posts: 16,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by estragon View Post
Avengers Forever is hilarious because it's a 12 issues limited series, and eight issues in it comes to a grinding halt for two full issues that are basically just monologues where characters explain their involvement in two separate time traveling conspiracies, all in order for Kurt Busiek to resolve a laundry list of dozens of continuity inconsistencies and loose plot threads that have been bothering him for decades.
Friggin' Immortus.
Reply With Quote
  #1898  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:19 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

Whenever you notice something like that, a wizard Space Phantom did it.
Reply With Quote
  #1899  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:32 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzarino Sbarro View Post
Sounds like a blast. I could never begrudge anyone for producing something like that.
Also, to clear up any confusion: I'm enjoying Avengers Forever. Kurt Busiek is exactly the right person to write a baroque time travel story that is bonkers fun and also takes a breather to clean up continuity while he's at it.

If you want a taste of Busiek's Avengers, I would recommend this limited series rather than his run with Perez on the main book that was coming out at the same time.

(Although actually the best plan is to just skip this entirely and read Astro City.... But I've already done that, so....)
Reply With Quote
  #1900  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:05 PM
Positronic Brain's Avatar
Positronic Brain Positronic Brain is offline
Out Of Warranty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Pronouns: He/him
Posts: 9,498
Default

It’s a crime that Busiek JLA/Avengers, which is insane levels of fun while being just slightly less bonkers, is not widely available, at least digitally.

My favorite part is where the two multiverses merge retroactively so the Avengers and the JLA cross the universes regularly, and Hawkeye moves permanently into the DC Universe because he’s more famous there. And then he woos Black Canary, so Ollie moves to the Marvel Universe out of spite.
Reply With Quote
  #1901  
Old 10-23-2018, 06:00 AM
LBD_Nytetrayn's Avatar
LBD_Nytetrayn LBD_Nytetrayn is offline
..and his little cat, too
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 9,020
Default

That sounds like something I want to read.
Reply With Quote
  #1902  
Old 10-29-2018, 02:45 PM
Pizzarino Sbarro's Avatar
Pizzarino Sbarro Pizzarino Sbarro is offline
Senhor Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Oh my God the THANOS ANNUAL #1. It's all stories of Thanos being an absolute dick of a troll, for serious effect in some stories and for comical (hilarious, really) effect in others. As pitch-black comedy goes, it's amazeballs. It's a perfect cooldown after the God Quarry and Thanos Wins story arcs and STILL very much in character for Thanos as an intellectual, sadistic, bloodthirsty, insane titan.



The story with the cutest art style (yeah you read that right) has the most audaciously over-the-line final dialogue.

Also? Despite the ending of the Thanos Wins arc kinda... making it impossible? The Annual also advertises a new Cosmic Ghost Rider series, and I'm there for it.
Just popped up on Unlimited. The story w/ that panel was so joyless, cruel, and depressing; wish I hadn’t read it.

(my little thanos was funny)
Reply With Quote
  #1903  
Old 10-29-2018, 03:48 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

I was extremely worried when I saw that a significant portion of Vol. 4 of Kurt Busiek's Avengers collects a crossover event I had never head of called Maximum Security, then was very relieved to see that Busiek himself wrote every issue of the Maximum Security mini and that this ties the main Avengers book back into the very strong Avengers Forever limited series.

It's unsourced, but wikipedia says that apparently Marvel demanded a crossover event, so Busiek wrote his own to avoid getting tied up in someone else's mess.

Between Maximum Security, Live Kree or Die early in the run, and the Thunderbolts crossovers, I think one of the strengths of Busiek's Avengers run in the context of its historical moment was just its ability to nominally satisfy corporate crossover demands while not screwing up the main book too much, which was a big problem during an era of very bad events. (They're what made me quit reading Marvel altogether, at the time.)

Just writing a stable and competently executed team book like this for so long was honestly a big accomplishment in the late 90s/early 200s.
Reply With Quote
  #1904  
Old 10-29-2018, 04:01 PM
Pizzarino Sbarro's Avatar
Pizzarino Sbarro Pizzarino Sbarro is offline
Senhor Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,774
Default

I’d heard of that event because my brother had the Gambit tie-in when we were kids and the Bishop: the Last X-Man issue is one of two issues of that series on unlimited. (probably because they put the whole event up at some point) Given that, I’m surprised it’s not an X-Men thing, though I’ve never read any issue related to it. Glad you enjoyed it.
Reply With Quote
  #1905  
Old 10-29-2018, 04:09 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzarino Sbarro View Post
I’m surprised it’s not an X-Men thing, though I’ve never read any issue related to it.
Apparently it's a line wide crossover. Busiek Avengers Vol. 4 just focuses on the core elements that Busiek wrote that are basically self-contained. But they also have a volume focused on the crossover titled Avengers / X-MEN: Maximum Security, so there is a major X-Men element that I haven't read. I will probably check out the rest in Marvel Unlimited some day, although I let my MU subscription lapse for bit so that a higher percentage of the things I read are not Marvel comics. (Also, the Trial of Magneto was a major turning point that marked a good place to take a break from my X-books readthrough.)
Reply With Quote
  #1906  
Old 11-04-2018, 06:59 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

It turns out my library also had the Maximum Security event TPB for some bizarre reason so I just read it.

Some more thoughts on this era of Marvel later, but in brief my big personal discovery is that it turns out I would rather read random issues from critically maligned and forgotten X-Men books that are awkward event tie-ins (an issue from the Bishop solo, an X-Men Unlimited issue that's basically Maximum Security mini series issue #2.5, and early 2000s Claremont Uncanny and adjectiveless), instead of issues from a critically beloved Avengers run by one of my favorite authors in his prime. I'll still finish that 5th and final Busiek volume, but I think that maybe Avengers is just . . . Not For Me. Also, this Claremont return gets a lot of hate (or at least . . . active disinterest) but it didn't seem like a total disaster or anything, even if he was maybe writing in a style that was somewhat dated by the that time.

That one issue of the Fabien Niceiza Gambit solo in there seemed like the book was just a disaster, though. (But maybe it's better when it's not a forced event tie-in so Gambit can pop up in a panel of Maximum Security #3 to say, "Hello Avengers, I stole the Data Disk You Need" ?) The phonetic accents in this thing are . . . off the charts.
Reply With Quote
  #1907  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:20 PM
Pizzarino Sbarro's Avatar
Pizzarino Sbarro Pizzarino Sbarro is offline
Senhor Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,774
Default

I’ve actually heard the Nicieza Gambit book is good (well, that’s what Paul O’Brien thought 20 years ago) and am looking forward to it, though I don’t like the character. Hopefully it was just a bad issue, though I imagine the accents are... always like that. Anyway, glad you’ve come to some personal insights.
Reply With Quote
  #1908  
Old 11-04-2018, 10:09 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
この世の最も無智なる者
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzarino Sbarro View Post
I’ve actually heard the Nicieza Gambit book is good
Well, it's certainly very horny.

There's a line where one of the Teeves* makes a point to say Mr. Fantastic has a big schlong, specifying that this was before he had any powers.

*Or maybe one of the Assassins???? There was . . . a merger . . .? Maybe???)
Reply With Quote
  #1909  
Old 11-05-2018, 07:12 AM
TheSL's Avatar
TheSL TheSL is offline
World of Darkness Returns
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Kansas City, KS
Posts: 23,365
Default

The best Gambit book is still All-New X-Factor.

Reply With Quote
  #1910  
Old 11-10-2018, 01:17 PM
Positronic Brain's Avatar
Positronic Brain Positronic Brain is offline
Out Of Warranty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Pronouns: He/him
Posts: 9,498
Default

I finally read all the spin-offs, so I could at last finish reading Secret Wars (2015). It was great! It's a pity that the nature of the comic book industry guarantees that major changes to the status quo will eventually be undone, because this would have been a heck of a "final" Reed Richards story.

(And by the way, I'm surprised how FF heavy the end product was, since most of the seeds leading to this were planted in Avengers books. This is for all intents and purposed the conclusion to Hickman's Fantastic Four run, and I wonder just how far ahead he planned all this)

The tie-in titles were, well, all over the place. Some were very good (waves at Siege and Master of Kung-Fu), some just blah and other were extremely awful (Hail Hydra and Old Man Logan). I might post some individual impressions later, but I'm disappointed very few of them covered stuff from the main title - the three week post-Strange's death gap, particularly, has many events that, as far as I know, weren't covered anywhere. We got this far and we missed the first meeting between Reed Richards and The Maker? C'mon, Hickman!

I'm a bit confused by the end, by the way. Did Reed rewind the Marvel universe before the first incursion happened? Or did some events happen selectively? Because most of the people who died (even pre-event!) look very healthy afterwards.

Cosmic reboots give me a headache.

Now reading Ultimates (the one with Blue Marvel and America Chavez) and having fun, but I think I'll go back in time after that. I think it's time to try Superior Spider-Man....
Reply With Quote
  #1911  
Old 11-10-2018, 08:53 PM
TheSL's Avatar
TheSL TheSL is offline
World of Darkness Returns
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Kansas City, KS
Posts: 23,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
I'm a bit confused by the end, by the way. Did Reed rewind the Marvel universe before the first incursion happened? Or did some events happen selectively? Because most of the people who died (even pre-event!) look very healthy afterwards.
People came and went based on the whims of the FF and/or Molecule Man, like how he revived Miles Morales' mom for bringing him a hamburger and transferred his whole family / social circle to 616 when 1610 bit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
I think it's time to try Superior Spider-Man....
Would highly recommend Amazing Spider-Man "Ends of the Earth" (#682-687) and the final issues of the series (#698-700) as a lead in for context. You can safely ignore all of the weird .1 stories.
Reply With Quote
  #1912  
Old 11-11-2018, 07:45 PM
Peklo's Avatar
Peklo Peklo is online now
Love is OGR
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Finland
Pronouns: They/Them, She/Her
Posts: 955
Default

The Mighty Thor #135 is incredible.



That's been the trajectory of the book overall--after the pretty shaky beginnings, which are mired in constant jingoist propaganda in every other story, the book's rise to greatness correlates with Kirby's own evolution as a creator. The stuff he did at Marvel seemingly all coalesced into a crescendo around 1966 or so, and he was rarely "off" thereafter for many more years of his career. You have the emergence of cosmic Kirby, the mythical Kirby, the futurist Kirby all in these stories, and they're such a joy to read for it.
Reply With Quote
  #1913  
Old 11-12-2018, 02:34 AM
Octopus Prime's Avatar
Octopus Prime Octopus Prime is offline
Mystery Contraption
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Great White North
Pronouns: He
Posts: 47,588
Default

You can almost pinpoint the instant Jack started getting fed up with Marvel in that book, and it made the series all the stronger for it.

And also, yes, everything about that page is everything I want out of comic books and life.
Reply With Quote
  #1914  
Old 11-12-2018, 07:06 AM
Adrenaline's Avatar
Adrenaline Adrenaline is offline
Mr. Jackpots
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Pronouns: he/him
Posts: 19,626
Default

The universe was remade after Secret Wars. This gives the creators endless leeway for continuity changes!
Reply With Quote
  #1915  
Old 11-12-2018, 07:26 AM
Zef's Avatar
Zef Zef is offline
Find Your Reason
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Vortex World
Posts: 30,852
Default

....OH MY GOD I just realized

At the end of Secret Wars (the new one)





They're creating

Marble Universes.
Reply With Quote
  #1916  
Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM
LBD_Nytetrayn's Avatar
LBD_Nytetrayn LBD_Nytetrayn is offline
..and his little cat, too
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 9,020
Default

It's funny how the term "the Marvel (or DC, for that matter) Universe" still hangs around, despite there being so many now.
Reply With Quote
  #1917  
Old Yesterday, 05:03 PM
Daikaiju's Avatar
Daikaiju Daikaiju is offline
King Of Space-Time
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 19,724
Default

Spider-Ma'am, Spider-Ma'am
Does what ever baker can




Reply With Quote
  #1918  
Old Yesterday, 05:26 PM
Zef's Avatar
Zef Zef is offline
Find Your Reason
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Vortex World
Posts: 30,852
Default

I am ALL IN for Spider-May.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comics , excelsior! , marvel , super heroes

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts ©you, 2007