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  #91  
Old 06-04-2015, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Destil View Post
Yep. Asmo just has buckets and buckets of HP. He has no real defensive or mobility abilities (I think there's a few talents to get HP back, I know he can take the healing banner), basically he's a walking sage platform.

His real strength IMHO is that he can push lanes he's not in with his global range summon ability, meaning you both have to be careful about the lane he is in and make sure not to let any of the others go ignored.
He's got a talent to add life drain on to that hideous hell-laser of his. I picked it up when I gave him a spin earlier in the evening, along with the "move while using the hell-laser" talent, and had a ton of fun running around as an unkillable minion-spewing fountain of death.
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  #92  
Old 06-04-2015, 01:36 PM
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Tefari#1938

mid or feed
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  #93  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:06 PM
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He's got a talent to add life drain on to that hideous hell-laser of his. I picked it up when I gave him a spin earlier in the evening, along with the "move while using the hell-laser" talent, and had a ton of fun running around as an unkillable minion-spewing fountain of death.
That laser SUCKS. If you can't get away from it, you're pretty much doomed.
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  #94  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:13 PM
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oh good, the b.net downloader is still a giant rumbling fart from the most cavernous ass.
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  #95  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:28 PM
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Azmo is a specialist tank, in the same way Uther is a support tank, and Tyrande is a support ranged-assassin, and Sylvanas and nazeebo are specialist assassins, and Sonya is a warrior assassin. The generic talents from those classes tip it off - imposing presence and block, or focused and searing attacks, etc.

And yeah, Azmo can be really hard to kill. Depends on who you have though. Illidan picks him apart pretty easily, for example; Azmo can't escape and illidan's self-healing helps you last through the laser, usually. Jaina can probably do a number on him too, staying at range + slow to stop the laser hurting too bad but keeping him slowed down even more while dishing out oodles of damage. The laser can be really really intense (especially with the move talent, jesus christ) but any stun or silence will interrupt it, triggering the cooldown and resetting its ramp-up damage. Plus those with escape/mobility moves.

I really like playing him and wish he weren't 10k or I'd buy him right soon. Illidan is the next buy on my list though, I think.
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  #96  
Old 06-05-2015, 02:47 AM
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I did the tutorial with him and had seen him played a lot, but I never really noticed just how good Raynor really is until now.

Spoiler: he's very good.
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  #97  
Old 06-05-2015, 03:58 AM
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Yeah. Raynor is dead simple, straightforward, and basically Sivir from LoL. Presumably that's why he's the tutorial character.
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  #98  
Old 06-05-2015, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Destil View Post
I did the tutorial with him and had seen him played a lot, but I never really noticed just how good Raynor really is until now.

Spoiler: he's very good.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why, but I agree. He's a fantastic balanced character that's surprisingly tanky for an Assassin (thanks to stimpack) and can go in practically any direction with talents. (IIRC, he's got siege talents, minion talents, direct damage talents, and tank talents)
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  #99  
Old 06-05-2015, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
So... Is Azmodan just a gigantic HP sponge and damage fountain? I was 1v1 with him in a lane as Valla for our last game last night, and just could not kill him.
Beefing up his Globe of Annihilation ability is another viable way to play him, especially if you're good at leading targets. Pairing that and Blackpool allows him to do an impressive amount of AOE damage from a fairly large range, and allows you to finish off retreating heroes.
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  #100  
Old 06-05-2015, 11:29 AM
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Beefing up his Globe of Annihilation ability is another viable way to play him, especially if you're good at leading targets. Pairing that and Blackpool allows him to do an impressive amount of AOE damage from a fairly large range, and allows you to finish off retreating heroes.
Yeah; when I play him, I always forget exactly how much range Globe of Annihilation has. I can totally see an Azmo that beefs that up and just runs around pelting forts or clusters of heroes with it being incredible.

What about heroics? I tried his Black Puddle, but it felt underwhelming.
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  #101  
Old 06-05-2015, 11:58 AM
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Played a 3 rounds as Falstad today. He's fun, but the last round my team sucked so I died a billion times. Oh well.

I played the other day and went 30/0 and 25/2 as Raynor. So yeah, he's okay. Haha.

I think the biggest problem I'm having with this game is the objectives. If your team knows that they need to get them and works towards them and keeps getting them, the other team can never recover. And if your team doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't help you get the objectives, then you get steamrolled and can never recover. You can predict the outcome of every match when the objectives spawn. I'm sure this changes in higher level play but, I'm not there yet. Ugh.

I miss having a proper laning phase. "Laning" in HotS is nothing of the sort. I miss having an extended 10-20 minute 2v2 or 1v1 fight, and having to watch our for junglers coming to gank you. You had to be super cagey and not push too far and not let them push too far, and you had to make sure you were on point at all times with your wards so you'd be aware of what was going on around you. You couldn't just go back to base and come back without consequences. Retreating is a huge tactical decision and doing it at the wrong time can really hurt you. And you really had to communicate with your teammates, because if you didn't the other team could catch you offguard. You really had to balance a lot more things.

In HotS, you kinda just do whatever until the objectives spawn, then make sure everyone gets them, and then you have a huge lead and just roam until a team fight starts and you will never lose. It's just not as satisfying.

I also don't understand why, since this game is much more accessible, they locked away all of any individual heroes' skills until you level them up. It seems counter intuitive. I suppose they want you to "get a feel" for them first but...like, come on. It takes two rounds to unlock them. Why not just give it to me?

All of that said, a lot of these changes were in service of making the game faster, and with my schedule such as it is now, a short MOBA is a good thing. I just don't know if this game has any long term legs, for me.
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  #102  
Old 06-05-2015, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
Yeah; when I play him, I always forget exactly how much range Globe of Annihilation has. I can totally see an Azmo that beefs that up and just runs around pelting forts or clusters of heroes with it being incredible.

What about heroics? I tried his Black Puddle, but it felt underwhelming.
I think Black Puddle's better if you focus on increasing the Globe of Annihilation damage, since 75% bonus damage is really good, but I find Demonic Invasion much easier to use. I haven't played Azmodan in a while though, so things may have changed since I played him, though I know the Globe build is still around.
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  #103  
Old 06-05-2015, 12:52 PM
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Okay, so I wasn't sure about playing as Support in a game like this, but Li Li is actually pretty fun. I think part of what I'm running into is the characters are fun to play as, but the game built around them is much less interesting to me.
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  #104  
Old 06-05-2015, 01:18 PM
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I assure you, at higher levels of play it is certainly not a matter of just doing whatever until objectives spawn. High MMR games are made or broken by tempo loss early game.
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  #105  
Old 06-05-2015, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Alixsar View Post
I think the biggest problem I'm having with this game is the objectives. If your team knows that they need to get them and works towards them and keeps getting them, the other team can never recover. And if your team doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't help you get the objectives, then you get steamrolled and can never recover. You can predict the outcome of every match when the objectives spawn. I'm sure this changes in higher level play but, I'm not there yet. Ugh.

I miss having a proper laning phase. "Laning" in HotS is nothing of the sort. I miss having an extended 10-20 minute 2v2 or 1v1 fight, and having to watch our for junglers coming to gank you. You had to be super cagey and not push too far and not let them push too far, and you had to make sure you were on point at all times with your wards so you'd be aware of what was going on around you. You couldn't just go back to base and come back without consequences. Retreating is a huge tactical decision and doing it at the wrong time can really hurt you. And you really had to communicate with your teammates, because if you didn't the other team could catch you offguard. You really had to balance a lot more things.
No. No. No no no no no no no. NO!

You're entirely missing the XP game, which is absolutely fucking critical before 10. On a map like curse it's really, really good to just have two players roam while the rest of your team lanes, and to give up the first and sometime the second curse. Make them work for it, but don't die and don't pull anyone else from lanes. Soaking XP from every minion that dies before you hit 10 is the single most important thing, because if you've got your heroics and they don't you'll generally tear the other team apart in a team fight.

Retreating is super important because travel time on most non-brightwing hereos mean you'll miss a wave of minions being killed if someone isn't covering your lane which is super bad. Also on the tighter maps you absolutely have the ability to pull four people into a lane for a quick kill, especially if the other team is being overly aggressive and you're not actually abandoning a lane to do so.

Also all of the objectives scale over time, I've had insane comebacks because a single late-game dragon or plant or whatever is just so much more potent than two or three early game ones. Fort and tower kills are worth XP, but until you hit the second line of forts you're not really making any significant strategic inroads (the second line works like minion inhibitors in LoL and once they're down catapults spawn on that lane). Also some heroes just play better in the late game, Nova and Sylvy are both absolute terrors at 16+ where they can just burst down any non-tank in the blink of an eye. Late game Abathor puts so much pressure on lanes he can take a fort before the opponents even notice (which is good, because he's defenseless).

I'm not saying the objectives aren't important or ignore them before 10, but XP is also really important and very few early game objective loses really put you that far behind unless you're also falling behind on XP at the same time.

When you're down two forts and level 8 vs. their level ten and have twice the death count, that's when a game may be over.
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  #106  
Old 06-05-2015, 01:23 PM
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In HotS, you kinda just do whatever until the objectives spawn, then make sure everyone gets them, and then you have a huge lead and just roam until a team fight starts and you will never lose. It's just not as satisfying.
That is much, much less true than the bulk of the playerbase seems to think it is, at least on most maps.

Blackheart's Bay for instance, the gimmick is grab cash, pay for cannon fire. One round of cannon fire will basically take a wall down and get a slight start on a tower, and each new round of cannon fire costs 2 more doubloons than the last.

So OK, cool, right when the game starts, if you grab both chests, you get a nice head start on a lane. Past that though, to keep things going, you need at least one person making the rounds on those little doubloon farms, picking up 2 at each as they swing around. The time commitment keeps going up and up, while the time it takes to just siege a tower down yourself drops as you level. At a certain point, the balance tips and spending any time worrying about the cannons is shooting yourself in the foot.

Or look at Dragonshire. If you really concentrate on gaining ground in the top or bottom lane, holding that shrine becomes so very very much easier, and even once you have the dragon, it's by no means a win button.
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  #107  
Old 06-05-2015, 01:23 PM
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Destil wrote everything I was going to but couldn't because I'm on break. But he knows what he's talking about.
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  #108  
Old 06-05-2015, 01:25 PM
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get off break lady, who cares about houses anyway, right?
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  #109  
Old 06-05-2015, 01:30 PM
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get off break lady, who cares about houses anyway, right?
Listen, these were dragons aren't going to smooch themselves.
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  #110  
Old 06-05-2015, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Destil View Post
Retreating is super important because travel time on most non-brightwing hereos mean you'll miss a wave of minions being killed if someone isn't covering your lane which is super bad. Also on the tighter maps you absolutely have the ability to pull four people into a lane for a quick kill, especially if the other team is being overly aggressive and you're not actually abandoning a lane to do so.
Retreating is huge. Learning when to cut and GTFO was, I think, the biggest thing that took me from "I'm helping!" to what I'd describe as passable-if-still-amateurish play.

Quote:
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Also all of the objectives scale over time, I've had insane comebacks because a single late-game dragon or plant or whatever is just so much more potent than two or three early game ones. Fort and tower kills are worth XP, but until you hit the second line of forts you're not really making any significant strategic inroads (the second line works like minion inhibitors in LoL and once they're down catapults spawn on that lane).
But despite this, pulling off an early push against towers/gates in the right context can make a big difference, right? Since it's one less thing in the way of that mid-to-late-game objective wrecking ball - and since you're probably denying the enemy their nearby healing fountain when laning?
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  #111  
Old 06-05-2015, 01:46 PM
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Yeah, sniping the mana wells is a really good play. You're just not going to see the effects explicitly.

Also they made the towers themselves worth a decent chunk of XP since the last time I really looked into high level play, so taking a few down if you have the chance will put you ahead in XP as well.
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  #112  
Old 06-05-2015, 02:07 PM
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Li Li kinda just clicked for me in the last couple runs we just did. Did the mana regen+ base talent and tagged along behind an assassin/sylvanas for the first couple of minutes to rack up kills and orbs to increase my mana regen, then buffed the snake with heal and you're pretty much set on heals. Getting the HoT upgrade on the heal and then two heals is just icing, and the massive mana regen you get after about five minutes of orb pickups is obscene.

One run I just tagged behind both warriors and we just kinda ground our way through an entire lane as I kept em topped off, and then we just kinda sat on their core for a minute for the win. The last run worked out almost as well as that.
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  #113  
Old 06-05-2015, 04:27 PM
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What Destil said.




The only use I've seen out of black puddle is for people who beef up their Space Jam to ridiculous levels (I am incapable of last-hitting mobs that regularly, so far) and then boost it for more Super Slam Dunks. Orb, a few seconds of laser, maybe some mob boost damage? 5 seconds is a long time but it feels too short with his other skills - the cast on orb, the ramp-up of laser - to really do much. Maybe help a strong minion push (but I'd rather have It's Rainin' Demons for that). I run into people playing it now and then, and they seem to do okay with it, but I haven't been able to use it myself and feel like it was worth it.
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  #114  
Old 06-05-2015, 05:15 PM
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Gonna stick with robots I think.
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  #115  
Old 06-05-2015, 05:18 PM
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*stuff*
Okay, but that hasn't been my experience at all. People don't do this. I guess I just need to level up more so I don't get matched with scrubs? I'd love having rounds where people actually lane, rather than just lane for five minutes and dick around.

Either way, I still dislike the objectives. I kinda just wanna fight people rather than deal with all this gimmicky stuff.

Edit: Just played another round. At one point, as Li Li, I was stuck soloing bottom lane because the other four players just ran back and forth between top/mid. This was, like, 3 minutes into the game. We got every cannon volley on the pirate map, and completely decimated the team.

So...yeah...

Last edited by Alixsar; 06-05-2015 at 06:07 PM.
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  #116  
Old 06-05-2015, 06:26 PM
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If you want your MOBAs to have a single map with no objectives, then this probably isn't the game for you.

And one bot, four mid-top is the standard configuration for Blackheart Bay. You generally don't your want support soloing, but hey, if your teammates were able to pull it off, then awesome. Skill over comp any day, for serious.
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  #117  
Old 06-05-2015, 06:49 PM
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I do still think one map with no objectives would be a great addition to the rotation. A bunch of watchtowers, merc camps, and lanes and that's it. It'd be a good thing to throw into the mix.


I'm trying to think of some other interesting ideas for map objectives. Maybe an objective that rebuilds your destroyed towers, instead of just another mechanic to knock theirs down? Collect tokens and deposit them by your forts to repair or rebuild. Or an effect that buffs your towers and/or minions. Or lets you build/buff up extra ones in certain areas.


Part of the problem with either of these might be the time limit; Heroes is designed specifically to have games under 30 minutes, and without the objectives to help push towers a game could get much longer. On the other hand, we already have some maps that are much shorter than others; allowing one to go a few minutes over the others doesn't need to be a bad thing.



EDIT: a preview of an upcoming hero from the splash art at the top of the official game page?
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  #118  
Old 06-05-2015, 07:05 PM
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meh, that's the male barbarian. Don't see how he'd be different than Sonja.
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  #119  
Old 06-05-2015, 07:14 PM
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meh, that's the male barbarian. Don't see how he'd be different than Sonja.
Less bruiser, more tanky? To be honest, I didn't play much D3 at all, just the demo.
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  #120  
Old 06-05-2015, 08:35 PM
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A sonja skin is how I see it.
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