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Old 12-03-2017, 02:01 PM
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Default You Will Never Stop Me From Posting About Star Wars

Enough time has passed since some people got in a fight, so I'm allowed to do this.

This thread is for talking about the movies of The Star Wars series, with the exception of ones that are currently undergoing their initial theatrical run. If you want to talk about The Last Jedi, probably best to do that in a new thread for the time being.

To recap, the most interesting thing going on in the old thread was this: in anticipation of the release of Star Wars Episode VIII: The Ninth One, I decided to watch each Star War Movie in chronological order, and post my more-or-less real-time reactions. I was literally in the middle of The Empire Strikes Back when the previous thread was locked, but I saved my notes, and I reproduce them below.

If you are interested in other posts in this series, I've separated them out for you:
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
Rogue One and A New Hope

Now then. Here follow the exact, unaltered words that I wrote on November 19:

---

Tonight I watched The Empire Strikes Back.

Y'know, Star Wars movies are really goofy. The Empire Strikes Back is the least goofy of them all, and it's still even goofier than movies that are famous for being goofy, such as A Goofy Movie. The hero of the last one gets attacked by a yeti and then goes to a swamp to learn mystical kung fu from a backwards-talking goblin muppet. His friend gets turned into a statue, and his robot half-brother gets torn apart and put back together by a dog-man. The ruler of the galaxy is revealed to be a diabolical wizard.

John Williams is firing on all cylinders in this movie. Maybe the greatest of all film composers, at the peak of his powers. Not only is there the iconic Imperial March, but also brilliant themes for the Battle of Hoth, the Asteroid Field, the romance between Han and Leia, the escape from the big worm, Yoda's theme.... The prequels feature some superior individual songs, like "Duel of the Fates" and "Across the Stars," but this is one of his finest scores.

Can't help but notice that the snowspeeders don't cast shadows in most shots. The use of the callsign "Rogue" seems odd so soon after watching Rogue One.

Imperial arrogance is in full force throughout this and Darth Vader wants none of it. He's got a personal interest in Luke now, and although the opening titles call him out as leading a group of rebels, he's still a Commander taking orders from a General. So right off the bat there's a mystery in terms of why he's so interested. Especially since his actions precede the message from the Emperor. In hindsight, his search is frantic, even desperate - he doesn't just want to find Luke, he wants to find him before the Emperor does. We also get a glimpse of his wounds under the helmet - a visual communication that what the audience has seen of him so far is not the whole truth.

The Rebel Alliance doesn't appear to have any aliens in it other than Chewbacca, in which sense it mirrors the Empire - Vader brings in alien bounty hunters to get an outside perspective (in particular, the Empire consistently fails to think about garbage, and Han and Leia consistently exploit this fact, which adds some texture, I think, to Finn's employment). And I think this supports a reading in which Luke is growing disillusioned with the rebellion. Its similarity to the Empire is pronounced: both use white-clad ground troops, the ion cannon resembles a miniature Death Star, it has moved out of the jungle and into an icy, lifeless world that is a bit nearer to the artificial world of the technology-dependent Empire. And Luke himself is shown relying on gadgets. Yoda calls him out on it shortly before the scene where he confronts the possibility of his own connection to Vader. He's angrier, wearier. But he still trusts Obi-Wan.

This movie does a lot of work to make you think Han Solo is the coolest guy ever. He's constantly engaging in spur-of-the-moment reckless heroics and dropping snappy one-liners and dunking on C-3PO. Then they take him away, so the next movie can be about rescuing him. And he's got the romance subplot.

Audience standards for where the line is drawn between "flirting" and "sexual harassment" have drifted somewhat since 1980, so parts of this are pretty uncomfortable to watch.

Motifs of communication with strange beings, of blurring the lines between living and nonliving things. Does or does not anything live on Hoth? Is this a cave or the belly of a space monster? Luminous beings or crude matter?

Yoda pulling his crazy-hermit routine is something I think holds up even in chronological order. R2-D2's perspective mirrors that of the audience, not knowing if Yoda, whom he has met, has lost his fucking mind or what.

During the training, he tries to get Luke to stop asking so many questions. Concern about the endpoint of Jedi orthodoxy? He has nothing to say about attachment - just going back to basics, talking about the Force. Luke doesn't know what's possible, meanwhile. They're learning from each other.

Obi-Wan's ghost appears. Luke, of course, has no appreciation for what kind of miracle that is. He looks like a hologram. There's symbolism there.

"That boy is our last hope." "No. There is another." The Leia-is-Luke's-sister idea was introduced as a way of tying off that loose end, but I almost wonder if it couldn't retroactively be made to apply to Rey.

The carbon freezing chamber is such an iconic set. That lighting, those stairs, the sunken dais with the freezing apparatus itself. Luke and Vader silhouetted against the fog in the background. They were finally able to make a lightsaber effect that could be moved easily, and they took advantage of it, but the main thing is that it approaches a scene made of pure color and shape.

All the times that R2-D2 starts a scene caught up with the rest of the group, especially in a place that he could not possibly have reached like the top of a staircase, and then falls behind, only to be caught up in the next shot. This is an incredible gag. Watch for it.

Vader's plan is for Luke to join him in the Emperor's inner circle, and then the two of them conspire against him. But he's kind of playing it by ear. After Luke turns him down and attempts suicide, he's lost. He can't even muster up the give-a-fuck to execute his incompetent subordinates. It sets up for Return of the Jedi to reveal him as a broken man behind his mask.

Lando ends up wearing Han's old clothes, signifying he could replace him. And then at the end even though they just finished getting their asses kicked for two solid hours, they end up back with the rebel fleet, looking over what they're fighting for - the galaxy itself. They return from their personal tribulations to the Star War.

---

Now I'm gonna watch Return of the Jedi. Please look forward to it.
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:46 PM
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Wife and I watched this last night. The read on Vader as an utterly broken man is totally in line with my own. Anakin's entire life turns on the repeated horror of bringing his family within his grasp only to lose everything. His own son, whom he offers the galaxy (with the emperor's head on a platter as a side dish) would rather suicide than stand by him. Luke lives, but whatever hope Anakin held dies.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:03 PM
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Issue #6 of the Darth Vader comic, Kieron Gillen writes a scene that's the moment of Vader finding out who Luke is, and thereby finding a focus for his rage and ambition. Makes a good complement I think.



In re: aliens and the Rebellion, the thing that jumps to mind is that changes completely in Jedi, and you have a lot of face time for characters like Admiral Ackbar and Lando's co-pilot dude.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:06 PM
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Issue #6 of the Darth Vader comic, Kieron Gillen writes a scene that's the moment of Vader finding out who Luke is, and thereby finding a focus for his rage and ambition. Makes a good complement I think.

In re: aliens and the Rebellion, the thing that jumps to mind is that changes completely in Jedi, and you have a lot of face time for characters like Admiral Ackbar and Lando's co-pilot dude.
Nien Nunb.

Goddammit, I thought I was done being a huge Star Wars nerd. Fuck me, I didn't even have to google that shit.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:07 PM
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Nien Nunb.
I thought about going to the trouble to google that, but I knew somebody else would pick up where I left it.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:08 PM
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The Carbon-Freezing Chamber is a fascinating set. Forced perspective of tilting walkways connected to distant points of light, with any other possible background detail shrouded by fog creates a mythical space. I don't have a good read on the sets between it and the yawning chasm of terrible knowledge, since its been too long since I've seen the movie. But they are some good-ass sci-fi corridors at least.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:11 PM
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The Carbon-Freezing Chamber is a fascinating set. Forced perspective of tilting walkways connected to distant points of light, with any other possible background detail shrouded by fog creates a mythical space. I don't have a good read on the sets between it and the yawning chasm of terrible knowledge, since its been too long since I've seen the movie. But they are some good-ass sci-fi corridors at least.
It's worth noting that Empire fixates on portals, doors, and windows - moreso than is usual for a Star War. We even end the movie staring out a window. The transitions between different parts of the carbon chamber mean a lot.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:38 PM
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Rewatching the duel and theres a lot going on in that liminal stretch. Vader disdainfully quips throughout the initial part of the duel, but once Luke temporarily gets the best of him, he reappears as unspeaking monolith that largely disposes of swordplay and pelts his son with debris. Dude is *pissed*. But it also closes with a moment of vulnerability, as he's forced to cling to a beam after he blows out the window. There's a fleeting moment of visual parity between him and Luke, before the latter's defenstration.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
Wife and I watched this last night. The read on Vader as an utterly broken man is totally in line with my own. Anakin's entire life turns on the repeated horror of bringing his family within his grasp only to lose everything. His own son, whom he offers the galaxy (with the emperor's head on a platter as a side dish) would rather suicide than stand by him. Luke lives, but whatever hope Anakin held dies.
It just hit me that this is another way Kylo Ren misinterprets Vader's values, and comes to the opposite conclusion that Vader did. Anakin falls because he wants to hold on to the people he loves, at any cost. Ben falls because he views the people he loves as a source of weakness, and seeks to destroy them. Anakin rebels against the Jedi value of severing attachments, but Ben embraces it to the extreme.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:08 PM
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It just hit me that this is another way Kylo Ren misinterprets Vader's values, and comes to the opposite conclusion that Vader did. Anakin falls because he wants to hold on to the people he loves, at any cost. Ben falls because he views the people he loves as a source of weakness, and seeks to destroy them. Anakin rebels against the Jedi value of severing attachments, but Ben embraces it to the extreme.
Maybe he sees this as why Vader failed and wants to exceed him. Kylo not necessarily Sith.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:45 PM
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I posted that so I could have somewhere to post about watching Return of the Jedi.

When I was a wee lad, The Jedi Came Back was my favorite one of these. It was the most colorful, I think was the reason, and Luke was cool in it, and the second Death Star looks a lot more imposing than the first one, and the space battle is really large.

And what a Death Star it is. Compared to the first one, its interiors are cavernous, and the subtle blue highlights visible in the background add interest. Jagged unfinished construction stretches across its surface like a wickedly grinning cyclops skull. It really does look undead.

The production difficulties happening on the Death Star echo the delays on the first that required bringing Galen Erso to finish it in Rogue One. There's some opportunity to win a No-Prize here to figure out how they can almost-finish the sequel in about four years when they built the first one in twenty and then killed the chief engineers and destroyed the backup schematics. Let me try it: the first Death Star basically had to be invented from scratch whereas there were still enough people who remembered how it worked that they could reconstruct a completed plan, they could salvage kyber crystals from the wreckage of the first one, they were cutting corners as part of the Emperor's trap, and, most importantly, Galen Erso was stalling the whole time.

If you're gonna recycle a plot device, then you can't do better than the Death Star, the ultimate symbol of the Empire's evil. Everything in the series orbits the Death Star concept. The Zombie Death Star of Return of the Jedi remains the least obfuscated echo of the original, even surpassing Starkiller Base of the one I haven't posted about yet. The Emperor being on the Death Star is the big twist; the prior concept of the Chancellor's office on Coruscant is combined with the artificial world here for the culmination of the trilogy.

And then we see the Jabba's Palace scene. This takes on a different tone when you know that Jabba is the ruler of the planet Tatooine, not just an ordinary mob boss. Him showing up as a Jedi and leading a regicidal slave revolt is an interesting contrast with Qui-Gon's earlier refusal to do the same, as much as his conduct in the throne room contrast with Mace Windu's.

This is a movie about kings. You've got Jabba, you've got the Ewok chieftain, and you've got the Emperor. More on that later.

Jabba's palace is grotesque and salacious. It even has a character named Salacious. The entire sequence is dark and steamy and diegetically sleazy. It's all indulgence and hedonism. A New Hope had a seedy bar, but this one has an opium den. There are orcs in it, just the first of several opportunities it takes to make up for the relative lack of aliens in The Empire Strikes Back.

There's a droid being tortured. Same one showed up in A New Hope, in the sandcrawler. There's still a lot here about the inner life of droids. As always, C-3PO's participation is unwitting. His ignorance is a cover for R2-D2's espionage. Leia's contribution to the plan, I'll wager, as Bail invented it.

The version of the movie I watched has "Jedi Rocks" instead of "Lapti Nek." This was a controversial decision, because it's a very animated and overproduced pop song with CGI dancers, rather than grungy alien funk with some really stiff puppets. The newer song is a strong contrast with the tone of the surrounding scenes, but in terms of cinematography it's better at establishing the intermingling of lust, gluttony, and cruelty that's afoot here. I'm referring specifically to the fact that they stick a camera down that one dude's throat. Jabba demands a raunchy performance from his in-house band, comes onto one of the dancers, feeds her to a monster when she refuses, and that becomes the new entertainment. Then he eats a live frog as a snack.

During the negotiations for the reward for Chewbacca, one new thing I noticed in this viewing was Boba Fett flirting with some of Jabba's other slaves.

The grenade that Leia uses in that scene also resembles a Death Star.

I notice with amusement that even after all these revisions, they still didn't fix Boba Fett's antenna being on the wrong side in the scene where he draws his gun.

With Chewbacca's sale, everything seems awful for our heroes, but that's when they show Lando's face to clue you in that there's more here than meets the eye.

Han Solo comes back from the dead. But now he's at his most pathetic, a contrast to the bravado and self-assuredness of his last apperance. Blind, freezing, pleading for his life, and talking like C-3PO with phrases like "delusions of grandeur." Remember how cool he was before? Well, now Luke is even cooler.

But we're meant to fear for Luke's soul. He shows up in a black hood and he gives away his friends and he's choking people with the Force. Saying shit like "I warn you not to underestimate my power." Hey, that line sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it? He fights the rancor, showing that he's still fallible.

Once the cloak comes off, we get a good look at what a Jedi Knight wears. In release order, this would be the first time you see it. On Luke, it's a samurai's vest and gi but with the collar of a Christian priest.

The fat guard mourning the Rancor reminds us that even the cruelest villains might still love. This is an important theme, of course.

I wonder how many kids got seriously injured doing irresponsible things on diving boards in imitation of Luke's jump.

The fight scene above the Sarlacc Pit mostly consists of Luke jumping around slaughtering dudes. For all the buildup, it resolves straightforwardly. Leia assassinates Jabba at the first opportunity, Chewbacca pulls Han and Lando back up.

The big missed opportunity is when Han is aiming the gun at Lando. Lando betrayed him, remember, but there's not really emotional tension there. The music turns triumphant when Han shoots the tentacle, but the fighting isn't even over when that happens. They're friends now. Lando has become a committed rebel, and in facing his death Han seems to have shed the baggage of his former life. He's even willing to let Leia go.

Dagobah is no longer scary. Luke, rather, is no longer scared. Yoda and Vader acknowledge he is in the position Obi-Wan was in during The Phantom Menace, with all the skills and knowledge he needs but not yet having faced a trial that will make him a knight.

Then Obi-Wan's ghost shows up again and reveals his lies. Now that Luke knows the truth, he is calling him Obi-Wan instead of Ben. Significant naming. Those who use Ben are those who are still affected by falsehoods about the nature of the Star War. Maybe.

"A certain point of view?" Luke is not having this shit. And then he repeats the old Jedi bit about emotional repression.

RIP Manny Bothans. The Rebellion has a lot more aliens now compared to the last two movies. Retroactive diversity? An attempt to backpedal on the Riefenstahl influences from the ending of episode IV? It does end with an anarcho-primitivist bonfire party instead of a military ceremony.

The tower with the Emperor's throne room looks a bit like the Jedi Temple on Coruscant.

I'm glad that Admiral Piett is still around.

The speeder bike chase on Endor is about the only special effect left in this movie that has really aged, since they replaced the worst of the puppets with CGI in the 90s. It's an exciting sequence - notwithstanding Luke being an awful backseat driver - but it's missing little kinetic touches that would help the bike in the foreground match up better with the forest in the background.

The plot thread of the second act is not a very sturdy one. A bunch of anonymous rebel commandos have no difficulty making it to the shield generator bunker, but the main characters trigger an alert with the very first guards they encounter and have to go on a sidequest to find Leia That's where they meet with the Ewoks, whose chieftain is the second of the three kings in this movie. Leia conspicuously does kiss Han and does not kiss Luke.

Three times, Luke confronts a king who has a particular interest in Leia and improvises a plan to regain his lightsaber, get her out of there, and negate the king's power. One of them he makes an ally out of, in C-3PO's triumphal moment where his ability to communicate finally proves useful. C-3PO is a total innocent with a myopic perspective on everything he endures, but through him, the story of the Star War is made universal and the (apparent?) justice of the rebellion is demonstrated.

I cannot suppress my paratextual knowledge that Carrie Fisher was completely flubbing her lines in the scene where Leia can't bring herself to tell Han that she just learned she's Darth Vader's daughter. But it works.

Luke entering Vader's custody. A scene set on a bridge, halfway between two places. This time it's Luke making the offer of a team-up and Anakin turning it down. You can see Vader steeling himself for what's to come. Psyching himself up. Trying to kill his emotions. "I must obey my master." Important to note that Luke showing up is indeed exactly what Palpatine told him would happen.

When he says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do," he refers to Obi-Wan thinking that he is no longer Anakin, that switching to the red team somehow made him a different person. It's in reference to Luke's accusation that he's forgotten who he is. He knows exactly who he is: a slave who always fails to save those he loves. Luke does not inspire him to return to former goodness, but to make a new choice that he hasn't made before. Luke is the first person Anakin manages to really save.

But that's jumping ahead a bit.

The movie spends a lot of time to put the ground team right back where they started only without Luke and with Ewok backup. I think that's the basis of the accusation of a meandering middle act. But then all the pieces are in position: Han and Leia outside the bunker, Ewoks keeping the stormtroopers diverted, Lando, Ackbar, and the fleet struggling to stay alive, and Luke watching it all unfold, wondering if everything he believed in was a lie.

Escalating hopelessness. The Death Star activates. Lando expresses faith in Han, which is immediately contradicted by R2-D2 getting shot in the dick. Scenes of carnage, dying Ewoks, escalating firepower, then it skips back up to the Death Star again. Lando and Ackbar start talking about suicide plans. Then Luke draws his weapon in anger, just as he was warned not to. It's very well-structured.

Some have wondered just why Luke would ever want to serve the Emperor. Darth Maul sought revenge on the enemies of the Sith. Darth Tyranus gained the power to fulfill his grandest ambitions. Darth Vader was promised a way to avert his greatest fear. But with Luke, the idea was to completely break his spirit and to give him no other refuge in the galaxy except for what the Emperor's philosophy of hate can offer him as a way to live with such despair. The Dark Side, he says, is the true nature of the Force; the universe is fear, anger, and aggression, and the only natural response is to join it, and learn from the master of such things. Join now and we'll even let the rebels escape!

They cross blades, but immediately we get a scene of the tide turning on Endor. Disguising themselves as the enemy, they attain victory. It introduces the idea that Luke can appear to give in, but remain on his original side. Just getting angry is not the Dark Side.

I can just hear Hayden Christiansen scowling underneath James Earl Jones when he says "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete." The revelation unbalanced him. As before on Mustafar, when his whole world is turning inside-out, he has his hate for Obi-Wan to fall back on.

The Emperor didn't calculate that Luke would rather die than turn. I get the feeling that Vader didn't tell him the full story of what happened on Bespin, what with the treason and all.

Luke's black jacket comes open, revealing it was white on the inside all along.

I paused on some of the shots of Vader being electrocuted by the emperor. The skeleton overlaid on his suit is clearly visible, but he's clearly got bones in his arms. Boy, I hope somebody got fired for that blunder!!

Luke barely managed to escape from the Death Star twice over - once he almost lost his soul, the second time he almost lost his life.

Then there's the montage of people celebrating - on Endor, on Bespin, on Tatooine, on Naboo, on Coruscant. Although they don't sound too much alike, the victory music for that montage reminds me of the theme from the parade ending The Phantom Menace more than the ceremony at the end of A New Hope. It's a celebration of what turns out to be a false victory. In the theatrical release, this music wasn't present, and there was no thought of revealing that the defeat of the Emperor was only planting the seeds of the next Star War.

Next weekend it'll be time to watch The Force Awakens, and then I got my tickets for The Last Jedi on opening night.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:52 PM
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Maybe he sees this as why Vader failed and wants to exceed him. Kylo not necessarily Sith.
I don't think he sees Vader as someone who failed. I think he sees Vader as someone who was betrayed.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:55 PM
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Kylo Ren sees Darth Vader as someone who was defeated by his own love. Vader could have brought about a revolution, perhaps. He says "I will finish what you started." What does he think he started?

The Force Awakens is a movie that asks a lot of riddles. I'm expecting that The Last Jedi will answer a few.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:08 PM
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My guess is that Ben Solo would not have been turned to the dark side, or perhaps not so completely, had he more attention from his loved ones. I think we have to assume that Luke initially trained his new Jedi in much the same way as he was trained, which is to say, the old way of emotional detachment and a mindful rejection of certain impulses. I'm also going to assume this means Leia/Han sent their son away to Jedi Boarding School, severing another attachment.

In the novelization of The Force Awakens, Snoke speaks to Kylo and says:

Quote:
"Kylo Ren, I watched the Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment—had the father killed the son—the Empire would have prevailed."
So, I think it's probably accurate that Kylo Ren understands that the power his grandfather wielded was not enough to save Vader from emotional attachment, which is exactly what the classic Jedi are taught to avoid. (Vader was never the best student.) Kylo's willingness to kill his own father is his attempt to convince himself that he will not have the same weakness, and I suppose we'll see how that plays out in The Last Jedi.

(It occurs to me the crucial moment Snoke speaks of may not necessarily be the throne room scene at the end of Return of the Jedi. It works better if you interpret that dialogue to mean the battle on Bespin. Instead of trying to convert Luke, Vader should have just killed him.)

I've been following The Last Jedi news for quite some time now - I'm not someone who cares much about being spoiled - and I have a feeling we're going to see a lot more of the nuance and ambiguity in Kylo's character. The awakening in "The Force Awakens" applies to Rey, yes, but also applies to Kylo. Will he be pulled toward the light even more than before? We'll see in 10 days.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:19 PM
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Rewatching the duel and theres a lot going on in that liminal stretch. Vader disdainfully quips throughout the initial part of the duel, but once Luke temporarily gets the best of him, he reappears as unspeaking monolith that largely disposes of swordplay and pelts his son with debris. Dude is *pissed*. But it also closes with a moment of vulnerability, as he's forced to cling to a beam after he blows out the window. There's a fleeting moment of visual parity between him and Luke, before the latter's defenstration.
The progression of the duel does a really great job of exhibiting Vader's mental state. As you say, he goes from taunting to silent, and increasingly wrathful and barely reined in as he drives Luke farther and farther out onto the platform after he survives the window toss. When Luke manages to score a hit, an infuriated Vader (who has likely not taken a fresh hit to his real flesh in a long time) can barely manage not to kill him, because the kid is not giving up. Honestly I think taking the hand off was the only way he could manage not to kill him outright.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:50 PM
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Oh, right. This is seasonal now:

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Old 12-03-2017, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
I paused on some of the shots of Vader being electrocuted by the emperor. The skeleton overlaid on his suit is clearly visible, but he's clearly got bones in his arms. Boy, I hope somebody got fired for that blunder!!
I know you're having a laugh, but I do like that the evem most horrific and weaponized version of the Force, intended solely to excrutiate, reveals that those subjected to it are fundamentally human*.

I also appreciate your calling out of Luke's attire. One of the biggest things that I'd really wish they'd gone with in the Prequel Trilogy is the original design of the Jedi's uniform. Luke's costume in RotJ was explicitly addressed in production material as a Jedi outfit, and I think it might have saved us all a lot of heartache if the Jedi were more visually presented as assassins. The hermetic robes we got are *fine*, I suppose, since it's an ascetic order. But how different would normal peoples' read of Mace Windu be if the dude was dressed like an Iga clan ninja?


Also, another good read, Bongo.
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  #18  
Old 12-03-2017, 08:33 PM
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Basically all of Return of the Jedi's dropped material was absolutely fine being left on the cutting room floor. Maybe the sole exception, though, is Jerjerrod's stuff. I'm cool with at least vaguely sympathetic Imperials, but I think that, more interestingly, said material helps establish the second Death Star as a coherent place, as with the first movie, as opposed to an omnipresent object, and the nominal location of the supernatural space that is the Emperor's throne-room.

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Old 12-03-2017, 08:47 PM
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Oh man, that shiny black R2 droid. There was a shiny black protocol droid on the first Death Star, I seem to recall. And Luke echoing Leia's pose putting the message into R2-D2. And C-3PO having already forgotten about Tatooine. That's some good shit.

I think if the sandstorm scene had made it in the movie, we'd be living in a different world today.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
With Chewbacca's sale, everything seems awful for our heroes, but that's when they show Lando's face to clue you in that there's more here than meets the eye.
I like how he completely exposes his face just so the audience knows it's him.

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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
I cannot suppress my paratextual knowledge that Carrie Fisher was completely flubbing her lines in the scene where Leia can't bring herself to tell Han that she just learned she's Darth Vader's daughter. But it works.
What
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  #21  
Old 12-04-2017, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
Then there's the montage of people celebrating - on Endor, on Bespin, on Tatooine, on Naboo, on Coruscant. Although they don't sound too much alike, the victory music for that montage reminds me of the theme from the parade ending The Phantom Menace more than the ceremony at the end of A New Hope. It's a celebration of what turns out to be a false victory. In the theatrical release, this music wasn't present, and there was no thought of revealing that the defeat of the Emperor was only planting the seeds of the next Star War.
I will never forgive the Special Editions' erasure of Yub Nub.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:35 AM
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Yeah, there's nothing particularly wrong with the new montage except that it deprives us of Yub Nub, and Yub Nub is great.
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  #23  
Old 12-04-2017, 08:50 AM
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Jedi Rocks is probably the only special edition change that actually gets under my skin. I will grant you that the puppets may have been stiff, but I will always take stiff puppets over mid-90s CGI critters.



This guy's got Dreamworks eyeballs, I mean jesus.



But they put Greedo in a bikini so I guess all is well.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:05 AM
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Yeah, the Special Edition changes are uneven. They changed Boba Fett's voice and that irked me - not in the SE but in re-releases after Attack of the Clones - but some of the stuff they did with Bespin was really nice.

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Old 12-04-2017, 09:21 AM
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Yub Nub fucking sucks
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  #26  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
I cannot suppress my paratextual knowledge that Carrie Fisher was completely flubbing her lines in the scene where Leia can't bring herself to tell Han that she just learned she's Darth Vader's daughter. But it works.
I, too, wish to know more about this
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  #27  
Old 12-04-2017, 12:09 PM
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Star Wars opinion (long, may be controversial)





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  #28  
Old 12-04-2017, 12:43 PM
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I had heard a rumor back in the day that Leia had more lines in that scene but for various reasons they couldn't get a good take of them, but now I can't find anything to corroborate it. I may have been hornswoggled.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:52 PM
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I'm not sure I agree with the reading of Luke become disillusioned with the Rebellion per se in The Empire Strikes Back, but I do think it's possible he's become disillusioned with war in general, after having suffered through a whole bunch of hardships on Hoth. Which might be the start of him deciding to give peace a chance, so to speak.

Also:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raider Dr. Jones View Post
Issue #6 of the Darth Vader comic, Kieron Gillen writes a scene that's the moment of Vader finding out who Luke is, and thereby finding a focus for his rage and ambition. Makes a good complement I think.

I mentioned in the previous thread, but the old Expanded Universe comic Vader's Quest (drawn by Dave Gibbons!) gives another take on Vader discovering Luke's last name. It seems to be more horror than exultation in that one.

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Old 12-04-2017, 07:32 PM
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Default You will never stop me from raging aginst the erasure of Yub Nub

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBanjoMike View Post
I will never forgive the Special Editions' erasure of Yub Nub.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirin View Post
Yeah, there's nothing particularly wrong with the new montage except that it deprives us of Yub Nub, and Yub Nub is great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
I didn't care for the crowd scenes. They struck me as far too similar to the ending montage of some zany comedy. It was like "Emperor's dead! Party around the Galaxy! Whoo!" When I saw those scenes I half expected "Any Way You Want It" by Journey to start playing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizz
If somebody could youtube up the Jedi celebration scene set to "Anyway You Want It", that would be great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me again
May God The Force have mercy on my soul...

http://vmashup.com/Z5ID7Q1l
PROTIP: Maximize the Star Wars video (it's on the left).

(Also, it's eerie that both of those videos synced up at pretty much the exact same start time...)
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