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  #61  
Old 12-18-2015, 04:28 PM
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How powerful is Kylo Ren? We see him stop a frigging blaster with the Force. That's a new trick. At that point I really thought the reveal on him was that he was going to end up using technology tricks to emulate the Force, but nope. He's the real deal. Then again, maybe he's not that powerful compared to someone like Rey, who just shows up and throws Kylo's mind reading right back at him, and then starts busting out Jedi mind tricks and swinging a lightsaber around. (Speaking of the mind trick, I've read Daniel Craig made a cameo as the stormtrooper in that scene, which is funny.)

I liked that Finn and Rey grew up with the stories of the original trilogy, just like we did, and so when finding out it was all real they fanboyed out appropriately. I liked that Kylo Ren is a whiny man-child like his grandfather before him, and that he wants to be so dark and brooding that he gets upset when tempted by "the light side." I liked that the First Order lieutenants and General Hux all felt like slimy Nazis striding around with sticks up their asses. I liked all the new characters A LOT. But it felt like Harrison Ford was just going through the motions. Han's scene with Leia was the only one where it really felt like the old Han, though I guess that fits with the story. The rest was just waiting for his death at the hands of his son, which as soon as you find out Kylo is his son, you know that is happening for sure. My only audible cheer was when Chewie shot Kylo, I believe it was something like "Yeah Chewie, get him!"

What I didn't like was that the plot was too convenient. The Millennium Falcon is just sitting around a junkyard, on the same planet where Luke Skywalker hid away the thumbdrive that revealed where he was going, which is also the same planet where a lonely scavenger girl who is REALLY strong in the Force was dropped off as a child. Those facts alone sure make it seem like Rey is going to end up being related to the Skywalkers somehow, and why else would she read important past events off of the Skywalker ancestral lightsaber? It wasn't there when Kylo Ren betrayed Luke ... OR MAYBE IT WAS! Speaking of that saber, some cool alien lady has it, and then hand waves away how she dug it out from whatever is underneath the clouds at Cloud City. Poe Dameron was launched so far clear of the wreckage of the TIE Fighter that Finn couldn't find him and presumed him dead, but his jacket was just hanging there. "The mysterious inner workings of the Force" is a bullshit excuse for cheap plot conveniences, and the seams are showing.

The first two thirds of the movie were stronger than the last third, which is where the rehashing of all the old stuff from New Hope started piling up too quickly for my taste. But it was a good Star Wars movie, it felt like Star Wars, and it sets up what should be an intriguing trilogy.
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  #62  
Old 12-18-2015, 04:34 PM
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Star Wars runs on coincidences.
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  #63  
Old 12-18-2015, 04:50 PM
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Oh, I don't think Rey is Leia's daughter. I think she's Luke's daughter, or possibly related to one of the students slaughtered at his new Jedi school.

EDIT: Or possibly the result of another experiment, like it is heavily implied Anakin was.
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  #64  
Old 12-18-2015, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
Nah she's hella younger than Kylo - apparently only about 20, while Kylo seems to be in his 30s. She's either a younger sister, Luke's, or unrelated.
That is a good point, my perception needs sharpening.

I think the possibility that Rey is unrelated to either Skywalker is pretty small.

I'm a few hours removed from the movie now, and my criticisms of it are starting to mellow. Its a good movie. I'm not really to call it a classic, but looking back on it, most of my criticisms are pretty small.
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  #65  
Old 12-18-2015, 05:48 PM
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Tiresome nerds in my life have been spooging over how little this film challenges them. I have low expectations.
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  #66  
Old 12-18-2015, 06:11 PM
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http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/...order-in-the-f

This says that the exploded planet was Hosnian Prime, which was where the the capital moved to post empire. AND! I believe the homeworld of Mon Mothma
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  #67  
Old 12-18-2015, 06:54 PM
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RANDOM POSTING IN THREAD I JUST CLICKED THE REPLY BUTTON ON TOP PAGE IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT GLANCING AT THREAD THIS IS JUST A RESPONSE REVIEW TO COME AFTER I SEE THIS SATURDAY OH CRAP PLAYING WITH FIRE WITH NEAR GLANCES AT THESE SPOILERS MAN PLAYING WITH FIRE OH YEAH
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  #68  
Old 12-18-2015, 08:49 PM
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Finn is just so stoked to have an identity.
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  #69  
Old 12-18-2015, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post
I love this.
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  #70  
Old 12-18-2015, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by chady View Post
EDIT: Or possibly the result of another experiment, like it is heavily implied Anakin was.
I can't imagine there's any way in hell they'll reprise unfortunate prequel plot points, like midichlorians and Anakin's "immaculate conception."

As for dumb coincidences, this movie is full of them. It's a film powered by momentum and enthusiasm, not airtight plotting. I'm fine with that, but if you start to tug at loose plot threads to the whole thing will unravel.
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  #71  
Old 12-18-2015, 10:07 PM
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They already reprised unfortunate prequel plot points, such as The Jedi are failures and They were all killed by a dork.
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  #72  
Old 12-18-2015, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
They already reprised unfortunate prequel plot points, such as The Jedi are failures and They were all killed by a dork.
Sure, but now it's more personal and less plotty.

This time the Jedi aren't failures. Luke Skywalker is a failure to both his family and to history.

They were all killed by a dork with legacy and daddy issues, as opposed to a messiah complex. Your mileage may vary depending on how much you think hose two things are the same.
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  #73  
Old 12-18-2015, 11:01 PM
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Yoda was the failure last time, and Anakin had family issues aplenty.
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  #74  
Old 12-18-2015, 11:07 PM
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Anakin didn't have a messiah complex - he had family issues because of other people's messiah complexes being centered around him, which is a thing that I don't even think has a name.
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  #75  
Old 12-18-2015, 11:23 PM
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Anakin absolutely had a messiah complex.
"I'm not the Jedi I should be."
"I wasn't strong enough to save her."
"My powers have doubled."
And yes he had family issues. But my point isn't to say they're different.

My point is, while the parallels are there, these characters iterations are more relatable to the average person. More personal than plotty.
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  #76  
Old 12-18-2015, 11:41 PM
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It's hard to get more personal than a story structured like a classical high tragedy. Shit's personal as balls. I think what you're trying to say is that it's not as contemporary.

Which, while true, isn't really the issue here. I believe the simple fact is that Disney, in contrast to the notably reclusive George Lucas, took a firmer hand in the marketing. They communicated what the film would be like - they took more initiative in promoting it. The prequels were art films, the movies he wanted to make; making-of documentaries show the director acknowledging that most viewers weren't going to "get" it.

Lucasfilm promotion was like "This movie will exists." Disney promotion is much more directed. They didn't give fans the opportunity to invent their own fanfic-based expectations about the film's message, and thus denied them the opportunity to be mad that a different story was told instead. By telegraphing that Episode VII would be a torch-passing remix of the series to date, with a particular emphasis on the parts from 1977, and then delivering exactly that, they forestalled the misunderstandings that tanked the prequels' reputations. And misunderstandings they are; the hate they get is far out of proportion to their actual problems (and farther still out of proportion to the problems that they don't share with the originals.)

So you don't think I'm complaining, though, I believe that such a remix is a right and proper thing for a seventh of nine Star Wars movies to be.
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  #77  
Old 12-19-2015, 08:48 AM
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I really really liked it. I just *loved* Rey - rescuing herself when Finn was coming to her "rescue", piloting the Falcon, reversing Ren's mind reading trick - it really compensates for all the complains I've had about Star Wars' treatment of its female characters. Having a female Jedi student as the protagonist? Yes, more, please.

I also loved that they did bother to create a tight alibi of why Kylo Ren couldn't win that fight at the end, what with that wound. While Star Wars does run in a series of coincidences, every little justification like this helps to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

There are so many things I liked - the humanization of all the villains, the fact that we didn't go back to freakin' Tatooine, that Han Solo went off with dignity... This is the Star Wars I've wanted all along.

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Originally Posted by Parish View Post
I love this.
Ditto x 10.

One thing we were talking with my friends - Rey definitively was a student at Luke's School for Gifted Teenagers. That's why she was a natural at all those tricks and why I can buy she was so good at everything she did. I wouldn't even be surprised if Luke did mindwipe her for her own protection.

I am expecting her to be Luke's daughter, but that's exactly why I don't think she'll be. And I'm fine with that. I can buy that the Skywalkers are special, but having not everybody related to everybody (and, oh, how easy it would have been to make, say, Poe be Lando's child) really makes the galaxy seem not so small...
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  #78  
Old 12-19-2015, 09:35 AM
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I just got back from watching it about an hour ago. Here is my impressions about the main characters:

Rey is the Star Wars fan that never gave up. She knows and believes in all the "old legends" of people like Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, the Millenium Falcon, etc. and once her fandom is made legit (when she's told about the Force and has those flashbacks) she becomes, essentially, a neophyte Jedi. Great character, but I view her as an allegory for all the fans who felt let down or were derided for still finding good in the prequels.

Finn is amazing. Somehow, the guy without an actual name is the most personable of the cast, for me. I like that he's honestly pretty much a knight/protector type who becomes a Resistance hero out of selfless idealism and courage.

Chewie was used so much better in this movie than in any of the previous ones, IMO. He's more of a punchline (except when he bashes or blasts stuff) in those, but here, he's got a hell of a lot of pathos.

Han gave zero fucks about the Starkiller base, and that was great. He never really got panicky in the originals, but if there was one thing he wasn't bothered by anymore after all these years, it was the enemy's super weapons. Starkiller base itself was really dumb, though.

Poe was an OK character, and I feel like he was used exactly as much as he should have been. It was very nice to have your typical Hollywood leading man be an important, but supporting, role in the story. He wasn't interesting, but he was entertaining, and served to keep the starfighter combat exciting, without making anyone else into an unlikely ace pilot.

Kylo Ren is a really complicated character and I can see this trilogy centering on whether he can be redeemed or not.

General Leia is awesome, and I really hope she's featured more in the remaining sequels. She and Han really put the finishing touches on the movie for me.

Boy, that ending is one hell of a sequel hook. Reminds me of the "I must watch the next one!" feeling I had watching the original trilogy as a kid.
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  #79  
Old 12-19-2015, 10:09 AM
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I see a lot of criticisms about Rey being a Mary Sue, essentially centered on her ability to master high-level Jedi skills within minutes. But while there might be some merit to them... c'mon. She grew up keeping the "myth" of the Force alive and it's one of the first things she confirms with Han, and then KR explicitly displayed those abilities to her. At my age, if someone came up to me and told me Peter Pan was 100% fact, and then started flying around, I would be thinking happy thoughts like you wouldn't believe. Her natural Force sensitivity was just the pixie dust she always had but never had reason to explore.
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  #80  
Old 12-19-2015, 02:35 PM
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I can't stop thinking about Luke trying the Crazy Hermit Yoda routine on Rey.
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  #81  
Old 12-19-2015, 02:37 PM
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Agreed (Edit: @Zef). Training obviously helps, but Force powers have always been explicitly will-based at their core. She has the inner prerequisites and the desire - knowing that it was in fact *possible* was the only push she needed to go take it from "try" to "do".

And it's not like she became a master overnight. Ren was half dead on his feet from several wounds before they fought, plus he was in a rage and she managed to calm herself - only with all those advantages could she barely come out on top.
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  #82  
Old 12-19-2015, 02:55 PM
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The First Order is the Jedi Order. Kidnapping and brainwashing children, fighting for an inadequate idea of peace, upholding the Empire, uneasy with granting a position of importance to a scraggly-headed emotionally unstable loose cannon of a nerd descended from Shmi Skywalker, led by an alien of unusual size with a custom-made chair. Well, that last one maybe isn't important.

But it does mean that Finn, too, is a spiritual heir to Darth Vader, a fellow defector. Funnily enough, though, he's even closer to (Clone Wars spoiler) Ahsoka, who I understand is having her arc continue in Rebels, which I need to catch up on.
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  #83  
Old 12-19-2015, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Rascally Badger View Post
An explanation of why there was a Resistance and a Republic would have been nice. Why are they two separate entities? So one can get destroyed and the other still be around to fight?
They didn't explain it in the movie, but I guess the Republic only covers so much territory in the galaxy, and the Resistance is the active element led by Leia fighting against the First Order in their own neck of the woods. Doesn't really explain why you can see the Republic capital explode from Maz's planet, but that kind of explains how they're separate entities.

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I would honestly be shocked if Rey is not a Skywalker either from Leia or from Luke's significant other (also Leia?)
Fucking what
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  #84  
Old 12-19-2015, 05:24 PM
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The situation seemed pretty clear to me. The Republic exists but does not rule the entire galaxy. The First Order is outside their territory. They're jerks, but the Republic is not fighting them openly; rather, they're waging a proxy war by covertly funding the Resistance (though it appears to be an open secret). What's unclear is whether the First Order is a government that's a successor to the Empire, or an autonomous military preying on unaligned systems that the Republic itself cannot protect, or what.

I did notice there was a breakdown in institutions of knowledge. None of the Star Wars were ever exactly fought during an information age, but this whole one is being fought over a map of the galaxy. The First Order has a map that they salvaged from the Empire, but the Resistance, even with the backing of the legitimate and urban Republic, lacks the information needed to find Luke. The galaxy has fallen far from the age when "If it isn't in the Jedi Temple library, it doesn't exist" - and I don't expect we'll find Luke's hermitage was hidden because Dracula went and deleted it from the archives.

R2-D2's whole reason to exist is to know secrets. He had the same map the First Order did, and was deep in meditation. Why did he wake up at the end and reveal it? The Force awakened him. (R2-D2 is still Force-sensitive, of course.)

I like Jakku. It's an even bigger shithole than Tatooine, where even the rich are poor, and you've got generations of crushing hand-to-mouth poverty based on scavenging. Slavery in a desert, like all the trilogies start with, but this time it's neglect and decay, not just a stable system of oppression, that's condemning people to it. First the galaxy thought nothing of letting slavers do as they will as long as they're out of sight; then the galaxy thought nothing of droids; and now the galaxy has no thought for anything but its war.

Rey was abandoned there. There was nobody left in the galaxy to care for her. Whoever dropped her off on Jakku wasn't coming back, whether because they died or because they just didn't care. It's not a place you send someone if you intend for them to be safe. It's not even a place you send someone if you want them to be hidden; there are plenty of places to be a hermit where basic subsistence isn't a daily struggle with no imaginable end. That shot of the old woman sitting across from her - that would've been how her life ended.

What they told Rey was that her family was gone, but someone else might come for her. She dreamed of the ocean and the island that he's on. That is who Luke is to her. I'll quote the exact phrase once I've seen it again, but I believe "someone else" than her family is literally how they described how they're related.
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  #85  
Old 12-19-2015, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
Fucking what
It was a joke.
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  #86  
Old 12-19-2015, 07:29 PM
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Just a heads-up: I normally dislike, or at least prefer not to refer to ancillary materials for info that the primary (movie-going) audience is not privy to, but...

The Visual Guidebook and the Concept Art Book are wonderful and do provide a lot of fascinating character and technical data. The concepts of child Rey as a scavenger are a particular highlight, and they also explain exactly what's up with that funky crossguard saber (the "quillions" are primarily vents for a dangerously unstable crystal.)

At 40 bucks for the Art Book, I couldn't justify it next to my Christmas shopping, but if you pick it up at Amazon it's definitely worth the $24.

Second edit: Going by the Visual Guide, the Guavian Enforcers are basically Geth. They're transhuman cyborgs, with illegal augmentations, and their heads are creepy as hell. I wish they'd show up in a later installment to try to collect again, the concept is too rich to be Boba Fetted.

Last edited by Zef; 12-19-2015 at 09:42 PM.
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  #87  
Old 12-19-2015, 10:06 PM
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I enjoyed it a lot but it was nevertheless a remake of the very first Star Wars, A New Hope, and inverting story beats from the original trilogy here and there (I should say everywhere) freshened things but didn't exactly bring anything new to the table.

In fact, that's probably my No. 1 complaint (I have no soul) is that this movie was too reverential and referential of past entries in the Star Wars saga.

I should've expected that from Abrams and Co., given Star Trek Into The Darkness and his whole career.

Some of the stuff that was "new" wasn't, well, notable.

Oscar Isaac's character is cool because Isaac is kind of a cool guy to begin with but his character wasn't all that striking the way Han Solo was in the first movie. I say that because I think Isaac's is supposed to be Han Solo-ish.

Same thing with Finn and Rey. Finn's motivations were absolutely confusing to me and the tinkle of romance between him and Rey felt rushed and tacked on.

Rey is cool and I appreciated the Strong Female Character portrayal here but it got too obvious and superficial in parts where Rey is telling and demonstrating to her male cohorts she can handle herself. This ties back to Finn and I cannot for the life of me figure out why he loves her. He explains why but that just felt slapped on.

I think back to Leia in the first movie and how the same sort of thing there was better because she had more personality and Han and Luke really were Doofuses – who were better characterized – when trying to "rescue" her.

Anyways, anyways, I could go on and no one is reading this anyways but despite all of the above, I enjoyed it a lot and I look forward to the sequels.

Best scene: Han Solo's death, obviously. That entire scene had me on the edge of my seat and it was so beautifully shot, staged, acted, everything — this is the best way for Harrison Ford to make his exit from the series. Bravo.

Also I can't wait to find out that Snoke is the size of a nickel and that the real reason Kylo Ren turned to the Dark Side is because he couldn't find a job post-grad after the Great Recession, got depressed, felt his parents were disappointed in him and reverted to aspiring to Darth Vader because times during the Empire (i.e., Nazi Germany) were simple and made sense.

How's that Bongo? How's that? Also what these movies REALLY are about is orphans in search of their heritage and true purpose in life. Lost souls wandering the galaxy in search of Meaning. I cracked the fucking code.
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  #88  
Old 12-19-2015, 10:08 PM
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How's that Bongo? How's that? Also what these movies REALLY are about is orphans in search of their heritage and true purpose in life. Lost souls wandering the galaxy in search of Meaning. I cracked the fucking code.
Yeah man. You got one kid who was abandoned, one who was abducted, and one who ran away.
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  #89  
Old 12-19-2015, 10:11 PM
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Echoing Zef's disclaimer about ancillary material, for people wondering about Resistance vs Republic, the official starwars.com databank has this to say in the Leia entry:

Quote:
After the Battle of Endor, the New Republic reached an uneasy peace with the remnants of the Galactic Empire. Believing the Empire was no longer a threat, the New Republic reduced its military capabilities, despite Leia’s warning that the Imperial remnants could not be trusted. When her concerns were dismissed as paranoid warmongering, Leia formed the Resistance, a secret military force that keeps watch on the restive First Order.
It further says that various senators and others sympathetic to Leia's views funnel funds and equipment to the Resistance, mostly through unofficial channels. Of course all the down-low is for naught as the First Order ends up targeting the Republic directly anyway. Presumably if anything's left of that goverment (i.e. people who were out of the Hosnian system at the time of the attack) would be willing to officially back the Resistance at this point.


Edit: other material also reveals Snoke's true stature. Is that a spoiler for future movies? He's around 7 feet tall.
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
inverting story beats from the original trilogy here and there (I should say everywhere)
High adventure that's beyond compare!
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