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  #931  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:47 AM
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Wasn't the majority of Young Jean's characterization seeing what happened to her older self and going "Nope!"?
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  #932  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:49 AM
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The best advice I'd give you is don't think too hard about it.
How To Enjoy Comics 101.
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  #933  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:52 AM
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Wasn't the majority of Young Jean's characterization seeing what happened to her older self and going "Nope!"?
Until they transitioned between writers in the last All New / Blue relaunch and suddenly Scott & Jean have a psychic rapport and love each other because something something The Phoenix.*



*Probably at least 50% of X-Men plots can be waved away by "something something The Phoenix"
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  #934  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:57 AM
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Until they transitioned between writers in the last All New / Blue relaunch and suddenly Scott & Jean have a psychic rapport and love each other because something something The Phoenix.*



*Probably at least 50% of X-Men plots can be waved away by "something something The Phoenix"
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
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  #935  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:11 AM
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There are just alternate realities. The only thing certain about the future is that Our Heroes will occasionally wipe a future timeline out to preserve the status quo. (personally, I think they should stop) The writers keep toying with sending the O5 back for some reason. (just gonna stuff Iceman back in the closet, huh? rude)
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  #936  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by NavelsAreNeat View Post
(just gonna stuff Iceman back in the closet, huh? rude)
Adult Iceman is out now too, but only because he called himself out.
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  #937  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:20 AM
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A real question of willpower is, will I pick up Cable, the comic that has had three writing teams in the past year for some reason? (the writers got bored, but the audience did not, because it could be selling much worse) I read the first two arcs and cannot remember anything about them. But X-Man himself, a character all people of good taste love, is in the new issue and the new team’s first issue is on comixology unlimited.
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  #938  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by TheSL View Post
Adult Iceman is out now too, but only because he called himself out.
I know! I just think the occasional vague implication that these teens should go back in time and get mind-wiped is a little sad, (poor teen Iceman, also, sure, whatever, the other characters) but again, I’m against all schemes to “fix” a timeline.
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  #939  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:46 AM
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The best advice I'd give you is don't think too hard about it.
Uhh if I didn't want to obsessively ponder over the details, I wouldn't be reading X-Men.
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  #940  
Old 05-16-2018, 09:09 AM
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Does Kitty and Piotr's marriage confirm the DoFP timeline?
Days of Future Past is the timeline where Jean Grey's parents were more empathetic with her when she visited them during the Dark Phoenix Saga, preventing a lot of the fallout from that and then having a lot of ripple effects down the line.

So, unless the marriage retroactively changes how the Greys treated Jean during the Dark Phoenix Saga for some reason, no it does not.

I mean, it's not impossible because hey it's comics and Shatterstar is his own grandfather. But probably not.
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  #941  
Old 05-16-2018, 09:24 AM
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TMYK. Did Jean Grey Not-Phoenix ever get out of her cocoon in that TL?
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  #942  
Old 05-16-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by NavelsAreNeat View Post
TMYK. Did Jean Grey Not-Phoenix ever get out of her cocoon in that TL?
That's a funny question to think about. I think the Rachel Summers issues explaining this predate the decision to put Jean Grey in stasis in Jamaica Bay, so I'd guess that it's technically still a dangling plot thread for someone to pick up as a shocking reveal in an eventual Days of Future Jean Grey mega-event.

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Originally Posted by NavelsAreNeat View Post
A real question of willpower is, will I pick up Cable, the comic that has had three writing teams in the past year for some reason? (the writers got bored, but the audience did not, because it could be selling much worse) I read the first two arcs and cannot remember anything about them. But X-Man himself, a character all people of good taste love, is in the new issue and the new team’s first issue is on comixology unlimited.
I have not read this comic, but I heard an interview with the creative team and they at least made a good pitch for their run.
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  #943  
Old 05-20-2018, 12:03 PM
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Inspired in part by all the over the top whining about the Thundercats reboot, Erica Henderson drew a fun sketch of an animated X-Men reboot in that same style.

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  #944  
Old 05-21-2018, 06:58 AM
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My only beef with that is that its 90s Storm instead of the black costume that would match the rest of the picks.
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  #945  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:28 AM
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I think the Beast-Storm-Archangel group is supposed to be distinct from the others.

Anyway that is great and Erica Henderson is too good for this world
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  #946  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by TheSL View Post
My only beef with that is that its 90s Storm instead of the black costume that would match the rest of the picks.
There are two Storms in that image. One is from the 90s, one is from the 70s.

The sketch is composed of three iconic X-Men covers.





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  #947  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by estragon View Post
There are two Storms in that image. One is from the 90s, one is from the 70s.
Oh, I somehow glossed over drowning post shuttle crash Storm with the big one floating up there from Jim Lee X-Men #1. X-Men #1 doesn't *pop* in my brain as well for me without sneering evil Magneto.
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  #948  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:46 AM
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Yeah she started with the Phoenix cover, then added Vol. 2 #1 for Beast, then finally Rogue/Wolverine.

It's easier to see in the context of those additions over time.
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  #949  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:20 AM
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I read the first volume of Grand Design, which was an enjoyable recap of the early X-Men stories. A big part of it was one villainous character who seemed to be preparing for the arrival of the Phoenix for years, but as far as I know there was no reference to it in the comics before it joined with Jean. Who was that and when did that story get fleshed out?

The collection included X-Men 1. Honestly, the thing that really stuck out was the sexism. Most of the boys constantly refer to Jean as a "doll" and Beast basically assaults her. I thought it was funny that Iceman, the one who was written to be gay decades later, is the one who didn't participate.
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  #950  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
I read the first volume of Grand Design, which was an enjoyable recap of the early X-Men stories. A big part of it was one villainous character who seemed to be preparing for the arrival of the Phoenix for years, but as far as I know there was no reference to it in the comics before it joined with Jean. Who was that and when did that story get fleshed out?
At least in the floppies he's got an annotated list of references in the back. I'd check for you, but for some reason those books didn't come with a digital code.
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  #951  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:31 AM
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I know I should have just looked it up myself but dang there's a lot of characters in those books
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  #952  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:48 AM
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Seanan Maguire is writing a Kitty Pryde story for an X-Men Annual

Is not the female-centric X-Men squad Maguire deserves, but hey, baby steps.
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  #953  
Old 05-23-2018, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
I read the first volume of Grand Design, which was an enjoyable recap of the early X-Men stories. A big part of it was one villainous character who seemed to be preparing for the arrival of the Phoenix for years, but as far as I know there was no reference to it in the comics before it joined with Jean.
So, these two bolded things are related: Grand Design is absolutely not a recap. It's a revisionist approach that treats X-Men until the end of Claremont's run as a rough draft, and it puts it back together as if it were a story with a beginning, middle, and an end instead of a monthly serial where no one had any idea where it was going. A major part of this is taking elements introduced in the Claremont years and retroactively inserting them into earlier stories.

Part of that is that Grand Design takes major elements like the Phoenix and foreshadows it much earlier. Two major ways this works structurally is: (1) Early X-Men was basically just a D-List Fantastic Four knockoff, with a lot of alien of the month stories that went nowhere. Piskor takes some of those and re-writes them to be about the Phoenix, instead of being about nothing at all. (2) This also establishes the Phoenix entity earlier, because the idea of the Phoenix as a separate entity that could "join with Jean" was itself a retcon. Through the Dark Phoenix Saga and Jean's death, Claremont wrote Phoenix as just [Jean Grey + Solar Radiation Powerup].

So, not only was there no reference to the Phoenix in early X-Men, there was not even a reference to the Phoenix as anything other than [Jean Grey + Solar Radiation Powerup]) until years after the most well known stories involving Phoenix itself!

Going further, the early X-Men stories didn't even really have anything approximating the "mutant metaphor," or even a semi-sympathetic Magneto. Most of what defines X-Men as a series is mid-period Claremont, coming after the Phoenix Saga. Grand Design takes those core elements and inserts them into the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
Who was that and when did that story get fleshed out?
Can you give a page number or a picture or be more specific? The premise of Grand Design involves taking lot of villains (and other characters) and re-writing them so they get involved because of the Phoenix. So, this could be a lot of different people.

Who do you mean, specifically?

edit: My guess is: The character most central to the plot of the Grand Design who fits that description is Mutant Master. In the original books, he's just an evil alien who wants to conquer earth because he's an evil alien and the early X-Men were just D-List Fantastic Four fighting D-List evil aliens.

That character is never seen again and the only thing that really ties the (very long!) original Mutant Master storyline to modern day X-Men is that Banshee was introduced as one of his mind-controlled henchmen. The character who years later would retroactively become Morph is also introduced as a henchman for that storyline.

Last edited by estragon; 05-23-2018 at 09:27 AM.
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  #954  
Old 05-23-2018, 09:21 AM
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My impression was that it was a rewrite of the early comics history incorporating later information that was retconned in, not that Piskor was actually creating new story connections himself. That makes the canon status of it kind of fuzzy; the Marvel wiki treats it as part of 616 but it seems to be contradicting the actual story as it stands.

I think Mutant Master is the character I was talking about.
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  #955  
Old 05-23-2018, 09:28 AM
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My impression was that it was a rewrite of the early comics history incorporating later information that was retconned in, not that Piskor was actually creating new story connections himself. That makes the canon status of it kind of fuzzy; the Marvel wiki treats it as part of 616 but it seems to be contradicting the actual story as it stands.
I've read the original books recently and also a lot of interviews with Piskor because I really like the Grand Design project. He's creating the connections himself, and it's not intended to be cannon.

He's just doing his own thing, and his only goal is to take the raw material of the original comics and transform it into one cohesive story, with the benefit of hindsight. This includes some existing retcons, but also a lot of his own original ideas. He has no expectation that any of this will be acknowledged or incorporated, and that gives him freedom to make whatever changes he wants.

In general, the Marvel wiki is a really bad source for answering "was this present in the original stories?" because it treats a lot of retroactive inventions as if they were always there to try to create a sense of a consistent/persistent world instead of hundreds of people making things up from month to month for 80 years.

Last edited by estragon; 05-23-2018 at 09:57 AM.
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  #956  
Old 05-23-2018, 10:06 AM
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Sure, but it at least seems to usually be accurate as far as "what universe is this character in this issue from?"
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  #957  
Old 05-23-2018, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
Sure, but it at least seems to usually be accurate as far as "what universe is this character in this issue from?"
I'm not sure what this means.

edit: Oh, "it" means the Marvel Wiki. (I read "it" as Grand Design and was confused.)

Yeah, in this case, if a Marvel Wiki entry is treating Grand Design as a major re-write of 616 continuity instead of its own thing, then the Marvel Wiki is wrong.

I don't know what entry you're referring to, so I can't confirm.
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  #958  
Old 05-23-2018, 10:13 AM
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I thought it was funny that Iceman, the one who was written to be gay decades later, is the one who didn't participate.
This is fun to look for and lasts for longer than the first issue, IIRC.

I took a look at the random Human Torch/Iceman team-up that popped up on Unlimited. I regret to say there’s nothing much gay about it (aside from, of course, Johnny’s talk of flaming on and off) and it was written in the early 70s, so Iceman is just kind of boring and nebulous. (I’m not saying he’s the most entertaining character nowadays)
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  #959  
Old 05-23-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by estragon View Post
I'm not sure what this means.

edit: Oh, "it" means the Marvel Wiki. (I read "it" as Grand Design and was confused.)

Yeah, in this case, if a Marvel Wiki entry is treating Grand Design as a major re-write of 616 continuity instead of its own thing, then the Marvel Wiki is wrong.

I don't know what entry you're referring to, so I can't confirm.
It looks like the Marvel wiki is tagging (?) this issue with appearances of 616 versions of characters, which is is a mistake. There’s no summary or write-up actually indicating this.
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  #960  
Old 05-23-2018, 10:30 AM
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It's an odd situation. If I'm reading an issue of Bucky Barnes: The Winter Soldier and Loki shows up looking nothing like Loki as he is in current continuity, I can look it up and find out more about what particular Loki this is.

Grand Design is kind of a special case. It's a history of the X-Men, rewritten to be more of a coherent, continuous story, but it's not referencing anything other than the existing continuity. He's not telling a new X-men story. So I can see why the wiki page links to the character pages for the 616 versions rather than creating literally dozens of new ones.
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