MUSCLE VILLAGE 2: Double Extended Inverted Ab Extension Twists

[R.R. Bigman]

Originally Posted by fugu13

You can't actually target where you lose weight. In fact, if you target your stomach muscles, that can make your flab be more exaggerated, as there are more muscles underneath.

It's basically just a question of losing enough fat overall that your belly fat goes, which seems to be mostly a question of personal body vagaries.

So what's a good all around fat burning exercise? I've tried several that haven't worked.

[fugu13]

I'm no expert on exercises, and I think it's mostly a matter of what you can keep doing, if you're just looking for general fitness improvement.

But exercise has remarkably little to do with weight loss (note: still very important for health, as a person can improve their fitness at any weight). Studies routinely find very little weight loss difference even for big differences in exercise regimen. Weight loss is more a matter of the balance between food intake and calorie burning through exercise. I'd suggest first counting your food intake (using either Calories or a points system like Weight Watchers -- note, you can gain easy access to that a number of ways without joining the program), then as you get used to that, lower that a little, increase your exercise without raising your intake, or both.

If you have a smartphone, there are a number of apps that can help you track information and give you rough targets for different amounts of weight loss based on body type, activity level, and so forth.

[dwolfe]

I'm going to agree with fugu to a point.

To lose weight, you can't exercise HARD while eating little. Your recovery ability when eating a restricted-calorie diet is limited (I don't mean 800 Calories a day, I mean under what it takes to maintain your current weight). Think of a power curve in your exercise habits:

Most of your 'workouts' should be low intensity, long duration. A few should be brief and INTENSE. Take long walks on the beach with attractive people (like an hour or two), don't sit on an elliptical and sweat for 30 minutes. Get a quality 30 minute lifting session in, not 1.5 hours of endless sets and reps.

Play, have fun. If you are doing karate or racquetball or whatever for two hours? That's fine. That's intermittent bursts of activity, the power law on a smaller scale.

I've found it incredibly difficult to stick with, but got GREAT results when I could. Google Art De Vany.

[Sir Sly Ry]

I've heard numerous times that weight lifting is better for burning fat more so than cardio. I guess cardio burns more calories while you're actually doing it, but you burn calories for a long time even after you're done with a weight lifting session. I don't know how close that is to factual but it might be something to consider.

[fugu13]

Yeah, there are definitely exercises that are better at burning calories than others, and levels of intensity of exercise matter a lot, too. But unless you keep control of your eating habits, you're going to take in almost exactly that many calories extra (due to being hungry), which is why exercise as a treatment in experiments generally fails. Exercise needs to be paired with not taking in too many calories (though people who exercise very large amounts rarely fully replace calories, such as those in sports) in order to create weight loss.

The exercise is still a good thing on its own even if there is no weight loss. For people at similar levels of fitness, weight is virtually irrelevant for healthiness or life expectancy (in fact, moderately overweight people at similar levels of fitness have a higher life expectancy than skinny people).

[Gwrrrk]

OH GOD SIDE PLANKS

[AJR]

I need to try doing those.

I know I lost a ton of weight from doing a ridiculous exercise routine. I don't think I could have replaced those burnt off calories if I tried. But the way I went about losing weight probably wouldn’t be ideal for most people. I agree that most people looking to lose weight are best off changing their diet more than anything else, with exercise being something to help their overall fitness.

One thing I’ve never understood is the notion that weight lifting is better for losing weight than doing cardio. I know the more you build up your muscles, the more calories you burn, but building muscle is still a long ass process that requires a lot of work. Plus you tend to put on fat along with the muscle. I’m in the process of getting back into weight lifting myself and I can definitely see the benefit, but if you’re goal for the time being is just weight loss, it seems a little counterproductive.

[Sir Sly Ry]

Well not so much weight loss but fat burning. As you build up muscle that will increase weight some, but you're also burning fat off at the same time. I would think anyway. *shrugs* I really don't know.

[StriderDL]

Originally Posted by AJR

One thing I’ve never understood is the notion that weight lifting is better for losing weight than doing cardio. I know the more you build up your muscles, the more calories you burn, but building muscle is still a long ass process that requires a lot of work. Plus you tend to put on fat along with the muscle. I’m in the process of getting back into weight lifting myself and I can definitely see the benefit, but if you’re goal for the time being is just weight loss, it seems a little counterproductive.

Well, losing weight is a long ass process as well. Real weight loss is achieved with a combination of cardio and muscle-building. Muscle tissue burns more calories even in a passive state. Also, don't think you aren't losing weight while doing straight-up weight-lifting. Having a routine where you do supersets of something or take really shorts rests in between sets you will be burning energy at a good rate. I like to do free, no weight squats or leg lifts.

[dwolfe]

Lifting is good for weight loss for a few reasons:

1.) raises your metabolic rate for hours after the workout, it's not just the calories burnt during the workout that matter, and
2.) maintains or even increases muscle mass while losing total body mass, which increases your base metabolic rate even on days you don't work out. Finally,

3.) This is important to avoid being "skinny fat" (think supermodel vs women's beach volleyball player builds?); when you're hypocaloric your body will be chewing on your muscles unless you eat enough protein and work the muscle hard enough to give the body a reason to keep it.

[CaliScrub]

Front squats! Holy shit!

So I have a scheduling question. Let's say I have three scheduled lifting days (Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday), and I miss one (Tuesday). Should I just let it go, or should I hit up the gym on Wednesday even though it would mean less recovery for Thursday's session? I ASSUME it would be OK if it was Thursday I missed, because even if I go on Friday I'd still have two days to recover.

[dwolfe]

Originally Posted by CaliScrub

Front squats! Holy shit!

So I have a scheduling question. Let's say I have three scheduled lifting days (Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday), and I miss one (Tuesday). Should I just let it go, or should I hit up the gym on Wednesday even though it would mean less recovery for Thursday's session? I ASSUME it would be OK if it was Thursday I missed, because even if I go on Friday I'd still have two days to recover.

Are you doing full-body lifting? If you're doing a body-part split, it has minimal impact in general (although working muscles on day one that you need for complex lifts day two might be a bad idea).

Otherwise, it's still not a bad idea to vary your routine and have two days in a row, rather than a strict "I MUST have one day rest". It can shock your muscles and nervous system into new gains in long run, even if you hurt badly the next day. Just don't push a tired muscle so hard you hurt yourself.

[ghosttaster]

Can anyone critique this routine?

Monday, Wednesday, Friday: Push-ups (close grip, far grip, regular, all on a perfect push-up type thing), unweighted squats, unweighted lunges

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday: Pull-ups (underhand, overhand close-grip, overhand wide-grip behind the back, regular overhand wide-grip, parallel bar), crunches, side crunches, reverse crunches, bicycle crunches

I also run and ride my bike but that's more recreational. I'm not really trying to get 'big' or lose weight or anything. I just try to focus on calisthenics. Am I missing any major muscle groups?

[Ted]

dwolfe says to pass on the crunches.

Other than that, this routine might not work the hamstrings that much, but maybe the lunges get in there. I'm not entirely sure.

Originally Posted by dwolfe

1.) Don't do crunches, they do nasty compression things to your lower back. Do bridges (first google hit for abdominal bridges). Do them for your sides as well. Tense your ab muscles IN as you do these.

I had a friend in undergrad that tensed his abs OUT while doing crunches and bridges, and he looked 9 months pregnant after half a semester. Solid muscle, mind you, no fat...but still unflattering.

[ghosttaster]

I looked up compression but I'm not sure what to make of it. I've been doing crunches for a couple years and haven't really had any problems.

Also what does he mean by '9 months pregnant?' I assume it doesn't have anything to do with 'compression' or whatever. Does he mean overdevelopment of the upper abdominals?

[Ted]

I assume he meant that because his friend had his abdominals extended out instead of tensed in during all that ab work that they stuck that way.

[dwolfe]

Originally Posted by ghosttaster

Can anyone critique this routine?

Monday, Wednesday, Friday: Push-ups (close grip, far grip, regular, all on a perfect push-up type thing), unweighted squats, unweighted lunges

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday: Pull-ups (underhand, overhand close-grip, overhand wide-grip behind the back, regular overhand wide-grip, parallel bar), crunches, side crunches, reverse crunches, bicycle crunches

I also run and ride my bike but that's more recreational. I'm not really trying to get 'big' or lose weight or anything. I just try to focus on calisthenics. Am I missing any major muscle groups?

Did someone say my name three times in this thread?!

1.) Crunches. They won't kill you or anything, but won't help if you have back issues. And yes, if you push your belly OUT as you tense 'em, your belly will grow for some people (as my quoted example). Whereas if you tense in, that won't happen.

2.) Let's look at your push/pull balance:

Upper Body
Horizontal Push: Push-ups
Horizontal Pull:
Vertical Push:
Vertical Pull: Pull-ups

Lower Body
"front" of body: squats and lunges
"back" of body: (maybe the glutes depending on form, not the hamstrings)

Core: various for the abs, not the lower back

Do you see any imbalances there?

To balance, add some military presses (go light if you have shoulder issues, but if you're doing that many pull-ups you should NOT have shoulder issues) and some rows to get the HPull and VPush you're missing in upper body. And that's ignoring the lower back, honestly...try some good mornings there. For lower body, I'd love to see some deadlifting (do them standing on one leg, lift other leg behind you, with some weights in your hands if you don't have access to a bar) and be sure to focus how your weight is distributed and what muscle groups you are using to squat to vary it between glutes and quads.

You don't have to do every single exercise every day, just remember there's muscles you can't see in a mirror!!!

[ghosttaster]

Is there any way I can do horizontal pull or hamstring exercises without special equipment? I currently don't have gym membership or anything like that, and I've basically maintained my regiment because I don't need any equipment for it. I have some rudimentary weights around (a bench press bar, at least) somewhere, but that's about it.

EDIT: nevermind... had a "Let Me Google That For You" moment...

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by gudfooht

I assume he meant that because his friend had his abdominals extended out instead of tensed in during all that ab work that they stuck that way.

When doing any abdominal exercise it's very important that you inhale as you contract - this will naturally force you to squeeze your stomach in and thus avoid the "pregnant" look.

[dwolfe]

Originally Posted by ghosttaster

Is there any way I can do horizontal pull or hamstring exercises without special equipment? I currently don't have gym membership or anything like that, and I've basically maintained my regiment because I don't need any equipment for it. I have some rudimentary weights around (a bench press bar, at least) somewhere, but that's about it.

EDIT: nevermind... had a "Let Me Google That For You" moment...

Bent-over rows with any weights you have for Hpull, one armed raises are great as they can help build your core stability as well; and one-legged deadlifts i already suggested for hammies (or glute-ham raises where you put your feet under a strong solid piece of furniture, and lift yourself from lying down onto your knees (start up on your knees, not on the ground)).

[TK Flash]

SO after reading those last few posts last week I realize I have been neglecting the backs of my thighs, only doing wimpy leg curls on the machine once in a while. On Tuesday I tried some good mornings, and after a few sets I realized I preferred to do straight-leg deadlifts instead. It worked great and the backs of my legs are sore as hell. I will include straight-leg deadlifts on every leg day from here on out.

I did a bit of searching, though, and it seems "leg bicep" and "hamstring" are used interchangeably, even though I always thought they were different. IE you work the leg bicep with pulling exercises like the leg curl, and everything else with squats, leg presses, etc. First question is, are these muscles in fact the same or was my previous recollection correct? Second, will doing straight-backed deadlifts be sufficient for working out the backs of my legs, or do I still have to do leg curls?

For my legs I usually do squats (my max is a probably 20 pounds more than my body weight), then calf raises, then do heavier lifts on one of the leg machines like the leg press. If I still have energy for lifting I do leg curls then, and generally end each workout with a 30-minute walk on the treadmill at 6 km/h with a 6 degree incline.

[dwolfe]

Originally Posted by TK Flash

SO after reading those last few posts last week I realize I have been neglecting the backs of my thighs, only doing wimpy leg curls on the machine once in a while. On Tuesday I tried some good mornings, and after a few sets I realized I preferred to do straight-leg deadlifts instead. It worked great and the backs of my legs are sore as hell. I will include straight-leg deadlifts on every leg day from here on out.

I did a bit of searching, though, and it seems "leg bicep" and "hamstring" are used interchangeably, even though I always thought they were different. IE you work the leg bicep with pulling exercises like the leg curl, and everything else with squats, leg presses, etc. First question is, are these muscles in fact the same or was my previous recollection correct? Second, will doing straight-backed deadlifts be sufficient for working out the backs of my legs, or do I still have to do leg curls?

For my legs I usually do squats (my max is a probably 20 pounds more than my body weight), then calf raises, then do heavier lifts on one of the leg machines like the leg press. If I still have energy for lifting I do leg curls then, and generally end each workout with a 30-minute walk on the treadmill at 6 km/h with a 6 degree incline.

"leg bicep" .... "leg bicep" ....*twitch*

Good mornings are for working your lower back, straight-leg deadlifts are for the hamstrings/glutes/entire posterior chain. And the ladies like a strong posterior chain!

Leg curls do target the hamstrings. However, they're an isolation exercise for the hamstrings that also doesn't work stabilizer muscles. So if you only did one or the other, I'd do the deadlifts; there's nothing wrong with also doing leg curls, but do them after deadlifts for safety.

Same with the calf exercises, do them after the deadlift. In general, you want to do your complex exercises before the isolation ones unless your workout specifically is designed to do the opposite. Helps prevent muscle strains/tears you might get from overcompensating for a tired muscle in the complex lift (e.g., tired calf, you can't stabilize properly while doing a squat and tip right over; or tired hamstring, use too much lower back on a deadlift and pull a muscle).

As an interesting finisher, if you have room to walk around or if the treadmill can handle it, grab a couple of dumbbells to walk with. Either very heavy ones to farmer walk a short distance, or light ones and you can do various arm movements with while walking (overhead lift, curl, etc).

[Olli T]

Originally Posted by dwolfe

As an interesting finisher, if you have room to walk around or if the treadmill can handle it, grab a couple of dumbbells to walk with. Either very heavy ones to farmer walk a short distance, or light ones and you can do various arm movements with while walking (overhead lift, curl, etc).

Kettlebells are excellent for this purpose.

[TK Flash]

Originally Posted by dwolfe

"leg bicep" .... "leg bicep" ....*twitch*

Hey bud, if you got a problem you can come right out and say it! So I take it that's a misnomer that I unfortunately picked up from somewhere?

Anyway, I greatly appreciate the advice. I always try to do free weights over machines so I will quit the leg curls for the straight deadlifts. I will keep the complex lifts to the head of the routine.

Now, to find a quad exercise that satisfies me...I must be doing something wrong when I'm squatting. I feel like I should feel huge burn on the tops of my thighs but instead it all ends up on the insides.

I will try walking around a bit with the heavy-ass kettlebells too. That sounds interesting. Probably can't take them on the treadmill, though.

[Olli T]

Originally Posted by TK Flash

Now, to find a quad exercise that satisfies me...I must be doing something wrong when I'm squatting. I feel like I should feel huge burn on the tops of my thighs but instead it all ends up on the insides.

Are you squatting "sumo" style? That is, knees wide apart, feet pointing outwards? If yes, try keeping your knees closer to each other and feet pointing straight forward. It's hard to describe in text, but do your squats in front of a mirror and try to keep your form correct and concentrate your mind on the tops of your thighs.

[TK Flash]

Originally Posted by Olli T

Are you squatting "sumo" style? That is, knees wide apart, feet pointing outwards? If yes, try keeping your knees closer to each other and feet pointing straight forward. It's hard to describe in text, but do your squats in front of a mirror and try to keep your form correct and concentrate your mind on the tops of your thighs.

Yep, you guessed it. I am squatting with my knees far apart with the feet out. Can't get the weight down otherwise.

I tried keeping the toes straight out with a narrow stance for a few weeks but I was unable to keep my knees from sticking out past my toes, which I read before was a no-no. Not to mention I felt about a stable as a jenga tower. Also I have lingering flexibility issues in my Achilles's tendons. My heels raise up off the floor, so by default the weight shoots to my toes. I think it's supposed to stay on your heels. I have had physical therapy for this particular problem in the past because jogging was sending all the shock to my knees, causing intense pain. Any word on forward knee position? How about alternate lifts?

[Olli T]

Originally Posted by TK Flash

Yep, you guessed it. I am squatting with my knees far apart with the feet out. Can't get the weight down otherwise.

I tried keeping the toes straight out with a narrow stance for a few weeks but I was unable to keep my knees from sticking out past my toes, which I read before was a no-no. Not to mention I felt about a stable as a jenga tower. Also I have lingering flexibility issues in my Achilles's tendons. My heels raise up off the floor, so by default the weight shoots to my toes. I think it's supposed to stay on your heels. I have had physical therapy for this particular problem in the past because jogging was sending all the shock to my knees, causing intense pain. Any word on forward knee position? How about alternate lifts?

I don't have enough expertise to give any real advice, especially given that you have a history of medical problems in this area. Talk to a pro, it'll be worth it.

[TK Flash]

Well, the only pros around are Japanese so I'll just experiment a bit and get back to you. I watched some squatting videos and found some other styles to mimic so I will try them and see.

[dwolfe]

Originally Posted by TK Flash

Well, the only pros around are Japanese so I'll just experiment a bit and get back to you. I watched some squatting videos and found some other styles to mimic so I will try them and see.

Stop with the weight load when you can't do a movement properly in the first place (squats). You risk hurting yourself. No weighted squats for you!


Try two weightless versions of squats, practice the squat each workout until your movement is good enough to add load:

1.) swing your arms out in front of you as you squat, and think about SITTING BACK. the arms out will help you keep your balance and get used to that deep sitting position. (Think stick your butt back, not straight down between your ankles)

2.) overhead squat. arms ...um...straight up and squat sitting back like above.

...

it's fine to keep doing leg curls sometimes, nothing wrong with isolation exercises, just realize that is what they are. leg bicep...the leg is a fantastically complex group of muscles, and hamstrings aren't as showy as the bi/tricep, so it just gives the wrong impression of how you should be working those muscles. You aren't going to be flexing that one at the ladies (or gents) (now the glutes...those are lower body flexin' muscles for everyone to admire!), so the analogy is wrong even if you meant that specific muscle.

[Olli T]

Agreed. Training close to your maximum ability is not safe or effective if you don't keep your form correct. Sumo squats aren't necessarily unsafe as it is, they'll just train your butt more than anything else.

Also, TK, do you have a Smith machine at your gym? The rails will help you with the balance.