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  #31  
Old 10-09-2017, 03:25 AM
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Jesus, that's cheap. Privates at my local MT gym are like 100 bucks, but that seems like it falls on the higher spectrum of pricing.

I'm speaking entirely out of my ass here, but regarding the teep, wouldn't it be hard to land on someone employing a lot of lateral movement? I'm thinking of something like the Barao Dillashaw fight. That's also a lot easier said than done, of course.
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  #32  
Old 10-09-2017, 07:17 AM
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Jesus, that's cheap. Privates at my local MT gym are like 100 bucks, but that seems like it falls on the higher spectrum of pricing.

I'm speaking entirely out of my ass here, but regarding the teep, wouldn't it be hard to land on someone employing a lot of lateral movement? I'm thinking of something like the Barao Dillashaw fight. That's also a lot easier said than done, of course.
Yeah I usually wait for them to approach before I teep and if someone is moving laterally, or backwards, I'll just focus on cutting them off before attacking. Usually (In my limited experience) someone moving like that is waiting for you to commit to an attack so they can get an angle on you so at that point I just try to crowd them out. Faking the teep can also be useful for getting them to move where you want.

If they are really close I like to:

Shove with my left while keeping a tight guard and then teep them backward. This happens pretty frequently. Usually the jab is a safe follow up after the theep, people don't see it coming if you just keep mixing up those levels. I haven't done this second one in sparring, but I've also worked throwing a snap kick to the head off of the shove which would really hurt and catch most opponents by surprise.

Wait for them to throw a kick and then teep their posted leg. All the power from the kick will neutralized but they'll probably be fully off balance, anyway. Follow up with a combo of my choice.
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  #33  
Old 10-09-2017, 07:19 AM
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It's much harder to land anything on someone using good lateral movement. But if good lateral movement were easy, everyone would do it. Think about how Dom Cruz gambols around like a backup dancer and all it's cost him is his knees.
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  #34  
Old 10-09-2017, 07:20 AM
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My favorite part of this gif is how Burly Gentleman the Lesser still finds it in him to do a letter-perfect breakfall on his way down
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  #35  
Old 10-09-2017, 07:56 AM
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It's much harder to land anything on someone using good lateral movement. But if good lateral movement were easy, everyone would do it. Think about how Dom Cruz gambols around like a backup dancer and all it's cost him is his knees.
There's a big difference, too, between simply running away using lateral/backward movement and using it to hold your ground and aid your offence. It's the difference between a good and bad backward fighter. At my level, against amateur fighters with 1-2 years of experience, they (And I) don't really have the experience to use that backward movement as a part of offence. Exploding with counters like a rubberband after just moving out of range, like the best Muay Femur fighters do.
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  #36  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:15 AM
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My favorite part of this gif is how Burly Gentleman the Lesser still finds it in him to do a letter-perfect breakfall on his way down
He nearly posts that arm, but he saves it in time.

I did some Abrazare & Ringen on Saturday, respectively the Italian and German historical wrestling. We started with Abrazare, but hit a technique that appears almost identically in Ringen manuals, albeit from a different lead-in.

I come from a judo background, though it's been at least as long since I did it with any kind of regularity as I'd done it in the first place. The wrestling arts that survive in the manuals from that time are all done with jackets/clothing, though, though I feel a kind of kinship with them and really want everyone else to hurry up and get their ringen jackets already so we can practice properly. (Different times appear to have different jackets, though; some are loose and grippy, but some are actually pretty tight in the sleeves though they have collars/shoulder/body material to grab onto. But there's a lot of arm-grips that are extremely hard to on bare (sweaty, slippery) skin that become a lot easier just to hang onto even if the person has underarmor, much less a cloth doublet/jacket.

Most of the wrestling of the time exists on a continuum that grows directly into deadly combat. So although Ott Jud himself (the godfather of the preserved Ringen tradition) only has unarmed wrestling, other masters and manuals, and especially Fiore and his Abrazare evolve that seamlessly into wrestling with a dagger (like, the exact same technique but instead of an arm wrap to take down, you stab him) and these wrestling techniques also appear in longsword and pretty much everything else, often with clear analogues.

The idea was that back in the holy roman empire and surrounding city-states where all this stuff was actually written, in any combat situation you'd find yourself in, from bar fight to duel to battlefield, people are going to be wearing some kind of doublet or possibly even gambeson out and about, up to and including full harness. And most of the time you'll be walking around town with at least a dagger onhand, too. Wrestling naked for its own sake was something the commoners may have done, but not the nobles who the manuals were for. In particular, the original Liechtenauer teachings were specifically for knights. And Ringen in particular grows directly into techniques that you can still do in full armor when you need to drop a motherfucker and put your dagger into the opening under his armpit. Some manuals do differentiate between schulringen (school/sportive wrestling) and kampfringen (combat wrestling) but the main difference is they use the elbow-breaking versions of the techniques.

One favorite of mine is a pair of techniques. One is "A man comes at you and you are not worried about him" and the other is "A man comes at you" with the rest left unsaid. IIRC you slip left and post against his downward stab. In the "normal" technique, you then come around and stab him in the side of the head/neck. But if you're not worried about him, you hook your dagger (remember, a non-bladed rondel, just a long spike) behind his ankle, lift up his leg, and basically make him hop around on one leg as you push him away/drop him to the ground. Like, "okay, buddy, you've had enough."


Also one manual includes Pit Wrestling, which is where wrestler A puts his foot in a hole and wrestler B has to stand/hop on one foot. This is done because:
Quote:
Da gehen viel Künste darauss / und ist lustig zu zu sehen.
"Much art comes of this / and it is funny to watch."

Including techniques like "This is the backwards throw from the hook to throw him out from the hole. It goes quickly and is very funny."
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  #37  
Old 10-09-2017, 12:41 PM
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Paul, do any HEMA peeps practice with battle/hand axes or do those fall under the heading of "not safe for sparring"?
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  #38  
Old 10-09-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Galadrome View Post
There's a big difference, too, between simply running away using lateral/backward movement and using it to hold your ground and aid your offence. It's the difference between a good and bad backward fighter. At my level, against amateur fighters with 1-2 years of experience, they (And I) don't really have the experience to use that backward movement as a part of offence. Exploding with counters like a rubberband after just moving out of range, like the best Muay Femur fighters do.
Fighting off your back foot is a rare talent at any level. Anderson Silva comes to mind as the finest recent example
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  #39  
Old 10-09-2017, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
Fighting off your back foot is a rare talent at any level. Anderson Silva comes to mind as the finest recent example
It's much more common in Muay Thai, which I actively follow, than in MMA. This is probably because of how grappling and take downs change the game. Silva is awesome and prob my fave MMA fighter.
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  #40  
Old 10-09-2017, 09:41 PM
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I'll cop to not watching kickboxing outside of its comically horrific Euro incarnation, where the rules dictate face-first action. The pacing is just so weird to me
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  #41  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:26 PM
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Paul, do any HEMA peeps practice with battle/hand axes or do those fall under the heading of "not safe for sparring"?
A 2-handed axe would most certainly be unsafe to spar with. A hand axe would be more or less okay. The SCA (SCA and HEMA are kind of evil twins of each other) do lots of mock fighting with 1-handed axes, even 1-handed maces, and more.

We don't do it in HEMA very often if at all, though, for one major reason: there aren't any historical manuals about how to fight with them. Nor are there any for traditional sword and shield. The thought is that was for the soldiery; they wouldn't have books or manuals (cause those were, like, expensive), just people to fight. And since you're in a melee/brawl/hell on earth, there wasn't as much chance (or, like, physical space) for art. Shields up, swing weapon. When it all falls apart, block with shield and swing with hammer or sword. Continue until dead. Chances are doing any fancy stuff you'll run into your own guys. And who has the time or money to train peasantry you conscripted who probably aren't armed with uniform weaponry anyway?

Yeah, we could just pick up an axe and go at it. (And there's definite fun and interest value in that, and it's cool! I know I do basically that with a spear when we do that. Though there are some staff/spear/polearm manuscripts.) But you could also just pick up a katana and go at it and say you're doing Iaido or Kendo, or just pick up a stick and go at it and say you're doing escrima, or just start kicking and elbowing people and say you're doing Muay Thai, but I don't think many people would find your argument too convincing.

You could argue it's the difference between doing a "martial art" and some other form of recreational combat. Re-enacting, mock fighting, LARP, whatever you want to call it. Not to say that it's bad, because again those things can be really fun and interesting! It's just different.

At least, that's the way I see it.
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  #42  
Old 10-10-2017, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
I'll cop to not watching kickboxing outside of its comically horrific Euro incarnation, where the rules dictate face-first action. The pacing is just so weird to me
Yeah, actual Thai Muay Thai competition is a strange beast compared to Japanese/European/K-1 style kickboxing. At some point I recall a guy on either CKC or general MMA twitter going into detail about how the judging criteria usually work and I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
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  #43  
Old 10-10-2017, 09:02 AM
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Yeah, actual Thai Muay Thai competition is a strange beast compared to Japanese/European/K-1 style kickboxing. At some point I recall a guy on either CKC or general MMA twitter going into detail about how the judging criteria usually work and I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
In terms of how gambling, religion, and tradition are wrapped up in it I get the sense that sumo is a better comparison than K-1.
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  #44  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:00 AM
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I just remembered - when I was younger, I used to train at this kung fu place. They did lion dancing with the drums and cymbals, the type a Chinese place hires when they want to celebrate their grand opening. They do the drumming and the firecrackers and dance around until one of the lions stands up and unveils a scroll bearing good fortune for the business. Pretty common.

One of our exercises was box jumping over benches. For some reason, child me was entirely incapable of processing the body mechanics of incorporating a aquat into a jump. I kept trying to jump one foot at a time. I think I was too scared to commit to jumping with both legs at once. My sifu was pissed I kept messing up. Eventually, he brought me to the staircase and had me try hopping over a step. Then two. After a while, the concept started to click.

Some time later, my brothers and I felt like skipping out on class, seeing as how we were lazy kids. My mom chewed us out for a while and brought us to our sifu, who also chewed us out right outside the classroom where everyone was listening in. It was so bad my brother started bawling.

At the end, he said something individually to each of us. One of my brothers had been promoted, so he said something like "I'm disappointed in you. I promoted you to encourage you to improve, but you stopped growing." To me, he was like "I have nothing to say to you." which was funny as hell, because he and I both knew I was a half-assed slacker who was never really invested to begin with. He finished his speech by going, "You can either walk out the door and leave forever, or you can step into my class now and be my students again." We immediately chose to leave. I kind of regret it now, because even though I hated it the most as a kid, it was a pretty interesting facet of Chinese culture in retrospect.
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  #45  
Old 10-11-2017, 07:26 AM
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In all honesty? That was probably for the best. Guy doesn't sound like a teacher, he sounds like an instructor. MAs demand devotion from both teacher and student and if the teacher can't instill that, it's not gonna work out.
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  #46  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:35 AM
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He sounds pretty cool tbh. But when I was a kid anyone telling me what to do got no time of day so I understand.

Thailand Muay Thai is what I really like to watch, it feels a lot more varied than kickboxing and all of the cultural and religious wrappings make it feel more alive somewhow. Kickboxing just doesn't do it for me. I really hate the somewhat crippled Ontario Muay Thai ruleset, which skews more kickboxing, but whatever. Not being able to do sweeps, or to throw the opponent out of the ring when you grab a leg, is lame as heck.

Yesterday I trained Muay Thai for 5 and a half hours which was very brutal but totally righteous. My bones hurt a lot at the end lmao. At the end of class my coach offered me a fight on November 2nd (!!) because one dude dropped out and they gotta fill the card. It is, imo, too soon for me to step into the ring but this was an incredible compliment especially after only 3 and a bit months of training.
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  #47  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:46 AM
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That's a big honor! But you're right: Only you know when you are ready to make that move. Don't let yourself be pressured.

You have any Thai fights you recommend? Back in the day everyone sang Buakaw's praises but by the time I started watching his stuff he was a straight up K-1 MAX guy. (THIS IS K-1 MAX RULES: NO ELBOWS, NO SWEEPS, NO ATTACK MASATO)
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  #48  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:19 PM
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Hmmm...

My favourite Golden Age fighter is probably Karuhat Sor Supawan. You can find full fights from the 90s on Youtube, he has a lot. In general, if you can find 90s stuff out of the Lumpinee stadium that's as Thai style Muay Thai as you can get. I'm not so sure about specific fights, there are so many names in Thailand that it gets hard to follow. Usually I just pick a fighter and then watch them a bunch, then when they fight a guy that I go "Oh shit nice" then I watch a bunch of HIS stuff and so on so forth. A really good contemporary fighter is Sudsakorn Sor Klimnee (Watch out for his K1 stuff, again).

Buakaw and Saenichi are the two biggest names in Muay Thai right now and they're both amazing but they do a lot of kickboxing, probably to make the big $$$. I feel like a lot of the Thai fighters that make it beyond the national scene get absorbed into kickboxing, which is kind of a shame for the sport.
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  #49  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:35 PM
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You saw a lot of the same with karate and longpants kickboxing in the 80s. You go where the money is.

We'll never see K-1's like again though. The top guys on earth fighting 6, 8, 10 times a year with an entire country going bugshit gonzo at their top tournament. From the early years with Hug, Bernardo, and Hoost, to the golden era. Never again.
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  #50  
Old 02-01-2018, 07:15 PM
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Started learning the spear in Tai Chi today. I have to admit I was a little skeptical of the applications since it's not like anybody carries spears around for self-defense purposes but I understand the necessity of starting with the basics.

Well, it turns out that learning the spear kind of kicks your ass but is a really great tool for stretching your arms and back. over the next few months we'll have the chance to try out the saber and sword as well.

Tai Chi continues to be really good for my knee.
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  #51  
Old 02-01-2018, 07:59 PM
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@#$% so jealous! I learned the first chi'en form (Form 32) and my shifu promised we'd do spears next but the university cut the non-essential sports clubs' budget before we could get there.

When you do sword, see if you can train with the solid, heavy versions instead of the tournament/exhibition ones --although you'll eventually need to learn to "snap" the soft blade type, training with the thick blade was an excellent exercise for the hand, wrist, and forearm, and controlling its weight makes it easier to adjust to the official swords.
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:05 PM
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I would really love to learn and get good at the sword form. But I've heard that if you want to be good with the Chinese sword, you better be ready to spend thirty years on it.

I'm also left-handed which means I always feel like I'm learning backwards.
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  #53  
Old 02-01-2018, 08:54 PM
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But I've heard that if you want to be good with the Chinese sword, you better be ready to spend thirty years on it.
and bathe in the coldest stream of the furthest mountain and forge iron with your bare hand
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  #54  
Old 02-02-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
Fighting off your back foot is a rare talent at any level. Anderson Silva comes to mind as the finest recent example
since this thread bounced back up, if you want to see some defensive boxing, Vasyl Lomachenko:

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  #55  
Old 02-02-2018, 08:46 AM
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Would this thread be more at home in the sports sub-forum?
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  #56  
Old 02-04-2018, 09:41 PM
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Would this thread be more at home in the sports sub-forum?
Yos!
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