The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about TV and film

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-25-2016, 05:08 AM
Vega's Avatar
Vega Vega is online now
Tiger, Tiger, muddy dark
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Space Coast, FL
Posts: 3,439

I saw just rewatched the TV series and End of Evangelion for the first time this week. The first time I saw them was in the late 90s when I was in high school. My feelings about the following parts changed the most:

First Viewing

Show in general: This show has great art, writing and music, and is a great example of why anime is cooler than American media!

Shinji: Wow, this guy is exactly like me! How did they read my mind?

Rei: Oh man, she's the coolest girl I've ever seen on a screen! Drool...

Asuka: She's really annoying, but in a fun, anime kind of way.

Misato: Shinji's kinda unfortunate to have been brought into the life of such a slob.

Kaji: ...


Show in general: This show holds up, but it suffers from Citizen Kane syndrome thanks to stuff like Xenogears and Pacific Rim.

Shinji: Middle school and high school sure were depressing. I'm so glad those years are long gone and I've become a better adjusted person.

Rei: My god, what did I ever see in her? I struggle to even see her as a human being now. If a real girl was this unemotional and introverted she'd be in intensive therapy, not piloting a giant robot. Good thing this show doesn't dwell on her any longer than it has to or I might want to hang myself.

Asuka: Dayum she's hot! She only annoys Shinji because she wants him to be the best he can be! Too bad her underlying problems are as bad as everyone else's and she never helps Shinji figure her out. Also too bad I avoided girls like her when I was in middle and high school, but then again I wouldn't have been able to figure them out either.

Misato: Misato has her problems but she's really generous to take in a lonely, neglected teenager.

Kaji: He knows what level he's on with the ladies. He gets it on with Misato, only flirts with Ritsuko and acts stone cold towards Asuka. Smart.

I'm going to watch the Rebuilds next. I posted this before reading this thread, so I'm looking forward to catching up on the conversations you guys had about this show eight years ago.
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2016, 11:03 AM
Zodar's Avatar
Zodar Zodar is offline
twinkling photon
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: It's all in the numbers.
Posts: 7,385

I'm currently rewatching this show with a friend who's never seen it, and has somehow lived outside the Eva Spoiler Zeitgeist for his entire life. I'm jealous.

Points of order:
-Man I forgot how beautiful some of the hand-painted cels in this show are. Why can't digital cels look like that. Why did we settle for Digipaint for a damned decade. Why hasn't the entire machinery of the anime industry toiled for the last twenty years to make something that looks anywhere near as good as this:

-I still love those minute-long pauses punctuated by nothing but recordings, muffled radio dialogue & cicada chirping, but they are pretty awkward to watch with somebody else

-I definitely do not want to have sex with any of these people. I want them to take better care of themselves. It breaks my heart to know they won't, at least not in this lifetime.
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2016, 11:15 AM
Mightyblue's Avatar
Mightyblue Mightyblue is offline
Are You Sure About That?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Somewhere cold. And frosty.
Posts: 21,756

You can do that with digital tools (even back in the day), but it costs time, and time = $$$. The difference is that early Gainax was the damn king at stretching their budget, saving their money for the big setpieces and reducing the rest to stills, slideshows, and switching cuts between headshots. What made anime of the 80s and early 90s different was all the Japanese bubble money flowing into it.

Digital tools just raised the average animation quality, since it makes tweening and copy/pasting mostly identical frames super easy and cheap.
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 09:20 AM
Pajaro Pete's Avatar
Pajaro Pete Pajaro Pete is offline
so exciting!
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 18,893

The fourth rebuild may actually be happening

Be sure to catch it on Blu Ray in 2021 when it finally gets released in North America
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 09:24 AM
Adrenaline's Avatar
Adrenaline Adrenaline is offline
Mr. Jackpots
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 18,966

'21 sounds optimistic actually
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 09:36 AM
Pajaro Pete's Avatar
Pajaro Pete Pajaro Pete is offline
so exciting!
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 18,893

you're right because this probably won't come out until 2019. better make it 2023
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 10:13 AM
Zef's Avatar
Zef Zef is offline
Find Your Reason
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Vortex World
Posts: 29,363

The original Evangelion audience will have grandnieces and grandnephews by the time the Rebuild has been completely rebuilt.
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 10:52 AM
Lucas's Avatar
Lucas Lucas is offline
Metaphysical organ dealer
Join Date: May 2008
Location: I don't even know anymore
Posts: 9,145

I mean, I was introduced to the series on VHS in high school in the late 90s, and I have a grandnephew already, so yes.
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 04:47 PM
Torzelbaum's Avatar
Torzelbaum Torzelbaum is offline
????? LV 13 HP 292/
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 11,170

Originally Posted by Pajaro Pete View Post
you're right because this probably won't come out until 2019. better make it 2023
Third Impact may actually occur before it gets released.
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2017, 10:38 AM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,113

Khara made a short film about the history of the company. The latter half is mostly about Anno's depression after Eva Q. The ending suggests he's feeling better now and that they're starting work on the next movie.

Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2017, 01:06 PM
Kirin's Avatar
Kirin Kirin is offline
Not a Beer
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 20,148

Heh, on a whim I tried turning on auto-generated auto-translated subtitles and that was worse than useless.

Also it never stops disturbing me how Anno's wife Moyoko is drawn as a baby in all their biographical animations, but I guess that's her standard self-insert drawing for her manga notes, so.
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2017, 01:15 PM
estragon's Avatar
estragon estragon is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,113

Originally Posted by Kirin View Post
Heh, on a whim I tried turning on auto-generated auto-translated subtitles and that was worse than useless.
The Japanese speech-->text mechanism on this creates 100% gibberish that doesn't get close to any words they're saying, so if the auto-translation is based on that yeah it's basically just a Dadaist poetry piece.
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2017, 04:33 PM
Peach's Avatar
Peach Peach is offline
Remembers Love
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fargo and Gamoorhead
Posts: 3,305

Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2017, 07:00 PM
Tomm Guycot's Avatar
Tomm Guycot Tomm Guycot is offline
Bald Gendou
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,970

So I spent the last month revisiting the original Evangelion series, plus EoE. But with one twist!

I could only watch one episode per day (this includes splitting EoE into halves).

My reasoning was that I'd never NOT binged Evangelion. So I'd never really experienced these as they were originally aired - with a week gap in between episodes. Now I don't have time for THAT, but I simulated a week with a day, just to get that taste. This is also my first time watching after getting divorced, working on the Silent Hill series, getting remarried, becoming a father, and becoming guardian to a 14 year old. So maybe some new perspectives at work.

So I thought I'd ramble a bit w/ my thoughts both about the series as a whole and nitty gritty details. I spent a bit of time watching some YouTube analysis videos just to get an idea of the current Eva discourse (the last time I watched the series and not the Rebuilds was 2004, and western audiences hadn't really dived into EoE yet, ignoring the fact that YouTube didn't exist then so...)

I could be super wrong about details. You're free to jump in! I mainly need somewhere to unload my thoughts and TT is one that makes sense.

Oh - Spoilers follow. Eva is 22 years old, sorry.

Background: I discovered Eva in May or June of 1998, shortly before graduating High School. I bought the first tape (2 eps) as an experiment and fell instantly in love. I returned the next day for tapes 2 and 3, and then again for tape 4. I coveted those for a week or two until I graduated and received money from my grandparents, at which time I purchased tapes 5-12 and binged them as close to front to back as I could. A friend had a hookup to get me tape 13 early, which I took advantage of.

I then binged the entire series over the course of 2 days with a friend of mine. And so on.

Results of my "one a day" experiment: Surprising!
The early episodes were extremely difficult to refrain from "just one more episode". These were the eps I originally couldn't binge, as I only had so many tapes. They WERE fascinating to see how they deconstructed the genre and I tried to imagine I was a "giant robot" fan tuning in to this strange new show. Episode 3 doesn't even have a robot in it. There's a really nice structure to several where you wait the entire ep for someone to just get. in. a. robot. and then something horrible happens to them immediately, to be continued.

Conversely, the really meaty episodes in the middle, which you think would be begging to just keep watching, I was able to watch on their own without trouble. They are all so unique and memorable that I enjoyed having a little time to chew on them. I was also able to remember what I thought/felt on previous viewings very easily.

The final two episodes, which I'm a staunch defender of, were IMPOSSIBLE to watch, one day at a time. The only way to finish this series without being angry or disappointed is to take it from Kaworu through to the end in a sitting. I suddenly felt empathy for those angry fans on initial viewing, sitting through weird recycled animation episode only to be greeted with... talking lines in blackness episode with countercanon interlude. Doesn't excuse the death threats, but I get the anger.

Shinji -
I've always liked Shinji. I always saw beyond the "he's an emo loser" angle that people who dislike Eva seem to get stuck on, and many Eva fans shrug and accept when presented with that criticism. He's not. I mean, he's not JUST that. Anno aimed Shinji at his audience and he was spot on.

Particularly the Dummy System moment, having worked on Silent Hill, struck a chord. I knew it would. It's something I've related to in the interim. But rewatching and being confronted with it again is very visceral. I made a silly tweet about it, but it's very true.

Originally I related to Shinji very directly. Now I relate to Shinji in a "been there" sense.

Gendou -
I used to think Gendou was a stone-cold badass villain guy. Obviously a bad father, but so cool about it. So abrasive. It's hard to see him now as anything but the emo loser people accuse Shinji of being. Gendou is so broken and handling it so poorly. Maybe it's the reflection of 3.33 Gendou, pathetic and alone behind his throne of nothing, or maybe it's just observing him now that I'm a father.

Being a Dad's hard - but it's not that hard, Gendou.

Misato -
Misato is and always has been my favorite. I married someone very much like Misato who I have now observed taking on raising a 14-year-old. Misato has it rough. When I was younger it was easier to see how often she was screwing up / getting drunk / complaining /etc. Obviously I understood her arc and how she steps up to the plate and forces herself ot be mature, but as an adult you realize how little "being drunk atm" actually changes that maturity. I mean I guess she was late to work once, but nothing she does is really symptomatic of not having it together. So her house is messy. So's mine.

Yui -
There is currently a widely held theory that Yui put herself into Unit 01 on purpose. I don't buy it.

Ritsuko -
I have a lot of trouble standing Ritsuko. She has not improved over time.

Kaji -
Back in my initial viewings I had an Asuka-like fascination with Kaji. So smooth. So adult. He has it all figured out AND he's a spy? Also, gardening? Sign me up.

He doesn't hold up quite as well seeing him as an adult. The cracks show a little more. Him breaking his facade to snap at Asuka holds more weight than it did. Most of my lasting affection for Kaji is now reflected affection off Misato. She cares so deeply for him even when his act is being a giant asshole... must be something there. Also he's risking his life to do what's right, planning to hand off to misato the whole time. Now that's romantic.

Rei -
Never been much of a Rei fan, though I do like her developing relationship with Shinji and deteriorating relationship with Gendou. I also wanted to carefully examine the relationships between Reis I, II, and III. How does she develop? What I came away this time was - she has no soul at all, right? So was Rei II slowly developing one organically due to her longer life and thus continuing relationships with others? More on this in the Kaworu section.

Asuka -
I'm an Asuka fan. She's just such a perfect character. There was kind of a weird disconnect on this viewing. I have to watch late at night due to my schedule, and during the key Asuka eps I had to be extra careful my neice would not wander out to see anything because much of it would be triggering. This caused a great deal of boomerang guilt as these scenes that could mess up a 14-year-old are the same things I binged watch with my 16-year-old friend in 1998 to whom they would be just as triggering if not moreso. Oops.

Kaworu -
Okay, so something new I uncovered in my explorations is that Kaworu has Adam's soul inside of him, which is very interesting even though I can't nail down an actual source for this info. So when he tells Rei they are the same, he means cloned husks meant for the soul of a great being. This also explains why it's far more interesting to have Kaworu hanging out talking to Seele during the Rebuilds instead of hiding.

This is nicely illustrated by the Dummy System Gendou develops being marked "REI" while the Eva Series are all marked "KAWORU". This is a neat detail, like Seele just duplicated all of Nerv's technology as a backup in case Gendou failed them. This also adds meaning to Kaworu's admission that "I believe I was born just to meet you, Shinji" - as Kaworu? As Adam?

Characters overall -
As a kid, I related to the younger characters a lot. They really felt like me and people I encountered, and made me think about what other people might be going through or thinking. The adult characters meanwhile were cool to me because they were adults who were presented as flawed people. They weren't perfect example adults. And they were terrible adults / idiot adults. They were people with their own flaws and their own stories that had to try and be adults. It was my first inkling that maybe adults didn't actually have it together.

Now, being an adult and living through a whole lot more stuff, I am relating to the adult characters directly, as myself and people I know. I'm also harder on them because some of them (Gendou, Ritsuko) REALLY screwed up in really simple things. Maybe don't betray your wife and wall off your son, dude. Give it a try. This might make it seem like the children are less emotional for me, or seem further in the past, but this isn't the case. Because I know kids like that and where they went; what decisions they made and how those changed them. I see a lot of hope in them that I did not see at the time. Maybe that's just another way I'm relating to Misato and Kaji...

more thoughts soon...
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2017, 03:12 PM
Tomm Guycot's Avatar
Tomm Guycot Tomm Guycot is offline
Bald Gendou
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,970

and we're back

The big Plan -
For a long long while I've tried to understand the difference between what happens if an Angel touches Lilith vs. an Eva touches Lilith, which one it is that Seele wants vs. Nerv, and so on. Partially because the manga seems to make a big deal about these things.

However I've come to understand on this viewing it's really the exact same thing. Either Adam and Lilith combine by Gendou's Hand (Adam's body) merging with Rei (Lilith's soul vessel) OR they combine by Kaworu (Adam's soul vessel) merging with Lilith. Seele wants to do it their way because they don't trust Gendou, and Gendou wants to do it his way because he's Gendou. Does he think this increases his odds of meeting up with Yui? Probably. He just wants the control. He also accelerates the timeline but Seele has their whole backup plan ready to go at a moment's notice.

I actually love the idea that both villains want the same thing, they just arbitrarily want to be the ones to pull the trigger rather than their "ally" doing it. It fits both Seele and Nerv so well. They just want the control.

Another interesting angle here is that (at least in the manga, but I assume the series as well) if the Angels reach Adam it ends humanity because they aer returning to their source. Who cares, you ask. Well - mankind has ALREADY DONE THIS and it was a nonevent. Humanity found and contacted Lilith. So why didn't this nuke the Angels? Is man not evolved enough? Or is this whole world post-second impact the slow progression of that dominance?

Evas -
In EoE Misato says something about Angels being human beings who have rejected human form. Potential mistranslations aside, it's interesting to think of Angels and Evas being on the same plane of evolution. What were the "human" versions of the Angels? Is Kaworu a clone of one of them? Or do they just not exist anymore? Obviously humans are so averse to evolving that they chose to engineer their next evolution rather than have it happen organically (or they rushed to achieve it because they were behind schedule and need to combat the angels).

Unanswered questions that only occurred to me on this viewing:
How did Yui's soul get from the Unit-00 prototype into Unit-01? Are they imprinting and storing mom souls?
Who's soul is in Unit-00 now?
Who's soul was in Unit-03? How did it get there? ALL these kids didn't have parents working for Nerv/Seele, right?

Cosmology -
So we all know by now Anno just grabbed cool sounding Judeo-Christian words to create the mythology of Evangelion. What this has practically created, though, is a very interesting cosmology.

Take a zombie movie. most of these assume that zombies are not a fictional concept in the world the film takes place. So when the dead rise up and start walking, it's the first time the characters have considered this idea. Unlike if zombies actually happened in the real world, where they would be pegged as zombies, or zombie-like behaviors.

Evangelion sidesteps this. If you heard tomorrow that a group called Gehern found an enormous being in the arctic made of something we'd never heard of before, and speculated it was an alien or heavenly being, and that they had called it "Adam", you wouldn't bat an eye. Of COURSE they named it Adam. It's the first being of its kind, and they are speculating/investigating if it was the possible source of all life on earth. "Adam" makes sense from our position in Religion and Western Philosophy.

The naming of everything in Evangelion follows this logic.

However, there's also the Dead Sea Scrolls. So unknown to you, Gehern is speculating that being they found IS ACTUALLY "THE" ADAM. Their intent is out in the open and you suspect nothing.

So the fun mental exercise is - is Seele FOLLOWING the Dead Sea Scrolls that were actually predicting this? Or by their actions are they simply CREATING the situations the Dead Sea Scrolls talk about. It can work either way.

End of Evangelion -
So this movie has a reputation for being weird and inscrutible, but it's really not. It really is just retelling the events of the final two episodes with a bigger budget, with one exception - Shinji.

Shinji is quite interesting, because he's at once Anno's view of kind of himself, but also a stand-in for the audience. Anno really wanted to tell anime fans something when he created Eva, something that several other anime and manga have done since then, and that's how to grow up and leave childish attitudes behind. This is very apparent across the board.

But as we know, after the series ended fans went nuts and did their best to unintentionally prove Anno wrong - sending him tantrums and death threats. So the Shinji in EoE is a little different. Or rather, Anno's outlook on Shinji is different. He's less capable, less proactive, and completely hopeless.

(This has continued on through to the Rebuild films, as Anno has gone on record stating everyone missed the point of Evangelion)

So once we get past the first "literal" half of EoE it gets crazy weird again, just like the series did. There is a LOT of Shinji talking to Rei spread across several scenes. I'm confident that a lot of this is Anno (Rei) speaking to his fans (Shinji) - however much of it is ALSO Anno talking to himself. What I can't decide is how much of it is which.

A lot of my interest here is of course also from my history on Silent Hill. I definitely understand how Anno must have felt, a greasy Otaku himself, given this great platform to speak to his people only to be met with backlash and death threats. I also have the same kneejerk response to somehow canonize my revenge. (When angry SH fans made an 8-hour video series to demonize me and incite an internet mob, I put backstory into SH:BoM that pegs them as the source of events leading to Homecoming, the worst of the Silent Hills). I've felt these things and cried these tears. It's interesting to re-experience Anno's answer in this new context.

I'm positive that when Shinji is pouting "they can just die" he is being Anno, because he is then asked "then what is your hand for?" (creating) and "What is your heart for?" (passion/drive/empathy) But the rest can go a lot of different ways. Again, what Anno is ultimately SAYING is fairly straightforward... but which words is he using to say it?

I'm also pretty sure the baby Shinji who builds a sandcastle Nerv only to destroy it... and then start rebuilding it is an illustration of Anno's relationships to his work. He HAS spent the last half of Eva's existence "Rebuilding" it, after all.

The final scene -
Much debated! Much contemplated! I think this is the simplest message of all:

You people won't be happy with anything.

I mean how much more obvious could it be? Shinji just chose to remake the world with other people in it. Then he wakes up, sees who the immediate "other person" is and tries to kill her. What did you JUST LEARN, Shinji!?

I'd be interested to know how big a thing Asuka was in the complaints about the series' ending. I mean I've heard things apocryphally but Anno definitely uses her and Shinji's relationship as a throughline in EoE.

It opens with a direct metaphor for the killer fight scene that is soon to come with Shinji (fans) literally getting off on a near-death Asuka. Not subtle.

Then we get said radical action setpiece, which is breathtaking to behold, and Asuka dies anyway. You being here and seeing this won't change her fate, fanboys. Don't forget you wanted this.

And then at the end, there she is again. Handed to fans, and they can't handle it. They never deserved it. They don't know wtf is best for them and they don't care to find out. They would rather destroy her than bother to learn the lessons they just chose for themselves.
Reply With Quote

evangelion , folding chairs , gainax , get in the fucking robot , hedgehog's dilemma , mind-raping , mindblowing , q horse , where are the blu-rays?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts İyou, 2007