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  #1  
Old 09-30-2007, 05:09 PM
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Default Advance Wars and Fire Emblem

How similar are these two series, in terms of gameplay? I love AW but never really played Frire Emblem...but my brother's a big FE fan, and I was looking over his shoulder yesterday and noticed it looked a lot like AW.
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Old 09-30-2007, 05:11 PM
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Picture an Advance Wars where you can't make units and if any unit dies, you have to restart. That's Fire Emblem.

Well, there's a little more to it with the whole weapon Rock Paper Scissor thing, and some units using multiple weapon types... but...
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Old 09-30-2007, 05:24 PM
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I find Fire Emblem easier than Advance Wars, but it still isnt all that easy.

As poetfox mentioned the main feature of Fire Emblem is that units use weapons that revolve a "Weapon/Magic Triangle" which does act like rock-paper-scissors.

Swords beat Axes
Axes beat Lances
Lances beat Swords

For magic (GBA)
Light beats Dark
Dark beats Anima
Anima beats Light

When using the correct weapon against the corresponding enemy weapon you have a Great chance to hit the enemy (90-100%). When using the wrong weapon you have a very low chance of hitting the enemy (25%).

Weapons also have finite uses, so kinda like Advance Wars you have to resupply your characters with weapons found in shops or from dead enemies.

I find these games good, but challanging. If you want to start off easy though the GameCube Fire Emblem (Path of Radiance) is an easier game than the 2 GBA ones.
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Old 09-30-2007, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetfox View Post
Picture an Advance Wars where you can't make units and if any unit dies, you have to restart. That's Fire Emblem.

Well, there's a little more to it with the whole weapon Rock Paper Scissor thing, and some units using multiple weapon types... but...
My brother restarts a lot, and I'd always figured he was just being too anal. Hm, guess not.

Honestly, AW sounds more fun.
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Old 09-30-2007, 07:20 PM
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I like FE for GBA, but part of the appeal is watching the characters interact and advance. It isn't the deepest story, but I feel like I'm playing one of those old historical novels with fifty characters.
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Old 09-30-2007, 07:23 PM
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FE has excellent character interaction (you can put units together to "support" each other, which can result in different/better endings as well as some interesting revelations) and for some reason I just really dig the characters' designs.

It can be a frustrating series, though. You don't get too many second chances when you screw up (and you will).

AW is more lighthearted and your units are far more, uh, disposable.

I don't really prefer one over the other. Totally depends on my mood!
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Old 09-30-2007, 07:34 PM
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I liked the GBA version. It has a weird charm to it.
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Old 09-30-2007, 10:39 PM
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They are different enough for me to hope that there was an Advance Wars in a fantasy setting. Resource management (with a constant supply of them like the cities), invidual commanders with special abilities instead of invidual characters on the battlefield, leading up to generic produceable standard units (which Fire Emblem already has on the enemy side). Kinda like a turn-based Warcraft II with an Advance Wars style. Personally, I think the Fire Emblem format is inferior to Advance Wars.
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Old 09-30-2007, 11:38 PM
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I think Advance Wars is the better game, but Fire Emblem (the first one for GBA anyway) is still quite good. The big difference is that you don't get to build your units, you just acquire new ones as the game goes on. And the big thing about Fire Emblem is that if a character dies, he's dead. So you either restart the level or continue the game without him. If you are obsessive over finishing the game with every character alive, this can get annoying, but if you don't care so much, you find enough of each character type that you can get by fine.

It's definitely worth a shot, but I can't say that if you liked Advance Wars, you'll like Fire Emblem. There are similarities in interface and strategy, but mostly the strategy is very different.
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:08 AM
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FE is fun for the most part, but nothing is more infuriating than seeing the last enemy on a map one-shotting an ally with a critical hit and having to play the whole stage over again if you liked the character. My hardy GBA SP was winged against many a wall when I was playing the second FE for GBA.
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimJimm View Post
I find these games good, but challanging. If you want to start off easy though the GameCube Fire Emblem (Path of Radiance) is an easier game than the 2 GBA ones.
Wha wha, huh? Did you play the GBA games first? BEcause most everyone I know says the reverse.
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Old 10-01-2007, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Daydreamer View Post
Wha wha, huh? Did you play the GBA games first? BEcause most everyone I know says the reverse.
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance does have an easy mode, though. I don't think the GBA games do...

The original GBA Fire Emblem is definitely the hardest.
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  #13  
Old 10-01-2007, 06:41 AM
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The Sacred Stones has an Easy Mode. It's a filthy lie, though.
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Old 10-01-2007, 06:59 AM
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I think the essential difference, gameplay wise, is the importance of luck: it's crucial in Fire Emblem, but can mostly be ignored in Advance Wars. In Fire Emblem, a couple lucky level ups can turn a good character into a great one; a couple unlucky level ups can turn a good character into an awful one. A lucky hit on your part can turn a tactical error into a spectacular victory; a lucky hit on the enemy's part can turn a brilliant tactic into a miserable defeat. In Advance Wars, luck very rarely matters, so everything comes down to strategy. (And the fact that units are generic and replaceable makes it a lot easier to deal with the rare occasions when bad luck does screw you over.)
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by q 3 View Post
I think the essential difference, gameplay wise, is the importance of luck: it's crucial in Fire Emblem, but can mostly be ignored in Advance Wars. In Fire Emblem, a couple lucky level ups can turn a good character into a great one; a couple unlucky level ups can turn a good character into an awful one. A lucky hit on your part can turn a tactical error into a spectacular victory; a lucky hit on the enemy's part can turn a brilliant tactic into a miserable defeat. In Advance Wars, luck very rarely matters, so everything comes down to strategy. (And the fact that units are generic and replaceable makes it a lot easier to deal with the rare occasions when bad luck does screw you over.)
This is mostly true but I think another issue with the difficulty is that most of the FEs have had a very linear structure, so if you try to keep everyone's levels at roughly the same spot, eventually your whole party will be underleveled for certain maps. As a result, the player is usually just going to pick his/her favorite crew and feed them most of the kills, leaving the rest out in the cold. That is the twisted genius of Fire Emblem: it makes characters expendable by repeating unit types and guaranteeing rapid character obsolescence, but embeds each of them in the story so that the player WANTS to save all of them anyway. I don't give a crap about this annoying cleric, so why am I resetting after she got run through by a cavalier? Because my archer is trying to nail her and they need to hang out a bit more.

The Fire Emblem that didn't come out in the States, FE6: Sword of Seals, is really good. It takes place after FE7, which was actually the prequel to FE6, and which we got here as Fire Emblem. FE6 stars Roy as the protagonist, which makes it kinda odd that America never got it, seeing as Roy and Marth's appearances in SSB:M was probably the impetus for releasing FE games stateside in the first place. Some enterprising FE fans put together a quite serviceable translation patch for it, and it's never coming at this point (think it came out in '02?) so it may be worth people's while to check it out with a flash cart or similar. Mild character spoiler about the FE7 heroes' fate: Hector goes out like a bitch 20 years later. I was so mad.
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  #16  
Old 10-01-2007, 08:57 AM
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I have never played a FE game, but I am planning on picking up the upcoming Wii version. It sounds like the kind of game I will either absolutely love or absolutely hate.
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  #17  
Old 10-01-2007, 09:14 AM
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I think that the GC game Path of Radiance is easier not only because of the Easy mode that yakkotank mentioned, but it has several gameplay changes that make the whole game easier than the 2 GBA ones.

First is that you have a traveling shopkeeper with you. Before in the GBA games you had to send one of your characters to a shop to buy items. That meant wasted turns for that character and also a lot of trading once he gets the items. In the GC game you can go buy most weapons and items between battles and also have a larger inventory space of 200 items.

The biggest reason why I think its easier is that you get Bonus Exp for finishing battles faster or by saving people in certain battles. Now after a battle you can level up under-leveled characters, usually saving them from certain death.

Also when leveling character and you happen to get a crappy random level up (no stats up Its happend!) you can just reset the game and give them a new level up.
You can really make some good characters if you are lame enough like me to make sure they get a lot of HP, Strength, Speed, etc.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:41 AM
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The bonus XP only really works if you're not playing on Hard Mode like I was (before I got distracted by something shiny). For me, bonus XP was meant more for when you'd get a new party member and they'd start at lvl 1 or when a character was only 10xp from leveling.

Honestly if you are new to FE, I'd say go with the GC version. Not only does it have an Easy mode and the bonus xp mechanic, but it also has one of the strongest Hero units in a Fire Emblem (seriously, end-game Ike is a monster on the field) and mounted units get the ability to move, attack, then finish their move, allowing you to hide them behind more heavily armored characters. The GBA games don't let them do that.

Other helpful hints: the game has a lot of chokepoints, so you can defend them pretty easy with a few fighters in front, mages and healers behind them to heal/sweep up, and mounted units roaming ahead to weaken foes. Always have a healer heal every turn, even if its only for a couple of HP, they won't gain xp outside of using your hard earned bonus xp other wise and that two hp may mean the difference between you winning or reseting because someone died. Give all your axe users a hatchet and lance users a javelin, they can use those both ranged and melee, though the admittedly aren't as great for melee as a normal weapon. Like Blindblue said, you tend to have a certain party you use during the whole game, stick with them, but keep a couple of useful backup characters a couple of levels below them for missions where you can bring in more units. Also make a customized weapon whenever you can, use it only for special battles and normal weapons for the regular soldiers.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:24 AM
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I don't know, I get a sick pleasure out of sending my infantry units in AW with 1 or 2 hp to block my tanks that have 10 hp. Sounds like a ruthless strategy like that wouldn't do me much good in FE.
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calorie Mate View Post
I don't know, I get a sick pleasure out of sending my infantry units in AW with 1 or 2 hp to block my tanks that have 10 hp. Sounds like a ruthless strategy like that wouldn't do me much good in FE.
On the other hand, perhaps you would enjoy experiencing each character's death quote...
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:19 PM
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I love Advance Wars in its many incarnations but I can't get into FE. It does a lot of annoying things most TRPG's don't like finite weapon use and perma-death. Actually, everything you need to know can be found here.
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:44 PM
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I'm one of those rare creatures who has given both the Advance Wars and Fire Emblem series's a fair shake but doesn't get the appeal. I get the feeling I would like Advance Wars a lot if I had anyone to play it with because I found the campaign mode to be a frustrating mixture of scenarios that either required chess-like precision or RTS attrition. I don't think it's a bad game, to be honest, but it never clicked with me like it seems to with everybody else.

As for Fire Emblem, for as many things as it does right, it does just as many wrong. Even Path of Radiance, which for all intents and purposes "fixes" many of the problems I had with the GBA titles by *GASP* making the game easier and more user friendly (DO NOT MAKE ME HAVE TO BUY WEAPONS WHILE I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF A FUCKING BATTLE1111!!!11!1!!!!), still irritates me. Why can't they just make the permanent death thing optional?? Any time a game has an element of LUCK to it, permanent death should not be a mandatory feature. I gave up on Path of Radiance because on my third try for a battle, the end boss enemy got a lucky hit on one of my characters and killed them off. Now maybe I shouldn't have put someone in the line of fire who could even possibly be killed by an enemy's attack, but then how the hell am I supposed to level people up when I can't repeat battles and I can't let my pegasus knight chick within 400 tiles of an archer because he'll ruin her day post-haste??

And don't say bonus experience, because you never get nearly enough of it to keep all your characters equal, and in order to get the full bonus for each map you have to be a lucky godlike bastard.
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:54 PM
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I am actually an AW > FE person for that very reason. There's absolutely no strategy in sacrifice in FE.

That said, I like Fire Emblem pretty well anyway, easily my favorite TRPG series. The gamecube version is outright broken on normal (between bonus experience and the just plain ridiculous power of some characters, it's easy to two-man basically the entire game), and the Hard mode, while not misnamed, isn't terribly difficult either. It being my first entry to the series, I can't hate it no matter how much I don't like about it.

To be honest, I feel like the series, like so many, reached its peak during the SNES days. Or actually, during the N64 era, but on the SNES. Fire Emblem 4 is an absolute masterpiece, and despite its obscene length (it took me 70 hours and I think I'm often pretty fast!) it's amazing. It introduced a lot of the modern features of the series like the rock/paper/scissors and features a variant support conversations, which work...a bit differently here. It's actually a "love" system where your characters fall in love by spending time together. They'll eventually have kids, who take up the mantle in the second half of the game. This is really important, because a large part of the game's storyline revolves around twelve families of divine lineage; they pass holy weapons down through the generations, and to be quite honest, the game is hella hard if you're stuck using plain old mortal swords and magic in the final stages (thankfully, a few are unmissable or don't require you to make hook-ups, which helps a lot). A lot of die-hards complain that the game is too easy because you can save at the beginning of every turn, but this is stupid; the maps are so colossal and the game is a little on the slow side (because enemies usually come at you in battallions of 12 or so) so I think that this is the best way. Plus the game is much more brutal than many later FE's...your characters will often die in two to three hits if you're not careful. I fell in love with this game forever though, when I got attacked by a powerful enemy archer with the "Continue" skill. On his first hit, he knocked Fin down to 1 HP...and he proceeded to shoot six more times...missing...every...one. The raw tension I felt from that is rare and awesome to me.

Fire Emblem 5 (Thracia 776) came out in 1999 (I believe it's the last game released for the system in Japan) and is one of the hardest TRPGs ever, as far as I know (especially if you're a completionist: a couple of optional objectives in the game are tough as hell). The game would be hard enough on its own, with tough enemies and a pretty lousy Lord unit (as well as, I'm pretty sure, an inability to repair weapons...you get a really good axe on the first stage! But you have to use it sparingly). But then there's a fatigue system which kicks in on chapter 7 or 8, to prevent you from using just a few guys to do all the dirty work. The plot takes place just a little before the second part of FE4, and the two stories combined are pretty damn good. (don't even boot up 5 until you've played the first half of 4 though) Plus, the graphics are amazing for a SNES game, as they really should be coming out this late, and the music is also good.

I really wish I'd played the GBA games earlier, because I have such a hard time getting into them now.
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Old 10-02-2007, 10:22 AM
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Vandal Hearts had a pretty great system for character "deaths", where they would just withdraw from the battle, but the loss would be penalized with loss of money at the end of the battle. And it still had tough battles thanks to inventive battle objectives besides just "kill them all". Unfortunately, the sequel missed on that point.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping that Nintendo is working on translations to the SNES Fire Emblems and Super Famicom Wars. I'd certainly pay 1200 points for each.
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Old 10-02-2007, 01:15 PM
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I may be the sole human that actually enjoys the permadeath aspect of the Fire Emblem series; a lot of people have problems with it, but for me, it only bolsters the story line. Each unit is a character, not a stack of nameless/faceless tanks or copters, and since every unit (or, at least, most of them) have a personality and a role in the storyline, they tend to have ACTUAL character to them.

It removes the strategy in sacrifice, but it does suggest to you that when you're trying to defeat an evil bastard with an army of ten, maybe sacrifice really ISN'T the best option. That, and it's people you're killing, not robot tanks. With as many "people" dying as is common in any given round of AW, I'm surprised anybody even signs UP to fight with Orange Star; they must pay the vets' families REALLY well.

That, and the experience is a bonus. I like developing an attachment to my units, much as people end up with a favorite badass in RPGs; when by endgame, your preteen pirate scrub is now a snarky, axe-wielding death machine, you can't help but feel a little bit proud.

That having said, AW is genius. It's a different sort of game, like comparing FFXII to Rune Factory. Both RPG's, but still apples and oranges.
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Old 10-02-2007, 01:59 PM
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I think the permanent death of the Fire Emblem games is great. It makes them unique and completely changes the strategy and the feeling of the game. If they didn't have the permanent death, they wouldn't feel nearly as unique. That said, the game interface and mechanics could have been designed a little better to factor in the permanent death so that the games didn't have as many frustrating moments.
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Old 10-02-2007, 02:08 PM
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The problem with permanent death in any trpg is that the player is invariably going to reset when it happens. It that respect, it just feels like a poor design choice.

Of course, not having permenent death kind of guts it as another status effect on par with petrification. FFT had the perfect solution: Giving the player three rounds or risk losing the character. Gives the player an increased sense of urgency to keep their guys alive and well, but they don't get instant retribution because they might have made one tiny mistake.

(If Fire Emblem actually does use the FFT route for this, feel free to correct me. I've never played one, but a cursory read of this thread is giving the impression that once a character dies they're dead with no chances of revival whatsoever).
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Old 10-02-2007, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgo View Post
The problem with permanent death in any trpg is that the player is invariably going to reset when it happens. It that respect, it just feels like a poor design choice.

Of course, not having permanent death kind of guts it as another status effect on par with petrification. FFT had the perfect solution: Giving the player three rounds or risk losing the character. Gives the player an increased sense of urgency to keep their guys alive and well, but they don't get instant retribution because they might have made one tiny mistake.

(If Fire Emblem actually does use the FFT route for this, feel free to correct me. I've never played one, but a cursory read of this thread is giving the impression that once a character dies they're dead with no chances of revival whatsoever).
You are dead on as far as I'm concerned. I love SRPG's but I can't beat FE because I get frustrated by the death mechanic. I prefer Disgaea and FFT death system (IE. no penalty and timed penalty)
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Old 10-02-2007, 02:26 PM
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Disgaea suffers from it's own problems, it's most prominent one being its turn structure wherein everyone goes at once. If the player isn't completely aware of everything around them, it's easy to get completely boned and lose half their party in one turn.

Don't get me wrong, Disgaea is tons of fun and stupid grinding aside there's a lot to it, but it's battle system is very dominate-or-be-dominated, with almost no room in-between
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Old 10-02-2007, 02:45 PM
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In FE4 one of the relics is a staff that lets you bring back a character from the dead; unfortunately every time you use it you have to pay 50,000G to repair it which is...kind of a lot, especially given the way money works in the game (it's not pooled, and there are certain conditions for passing it around between characters, mostly involving them being in love or I think related).

It's also designed into the game, in that, letting someone die and then using it is one of a couple options to get past a very difficult part of one mission.
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