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  #151  
Old 04-27-2014, 03:55 AM
Rya Rya is offline
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Yeah in SF1 the hero was still quite weak. In SF2 and SFCD he has really high HP and DEF stats (in SFCD he has yet to take more than 1 HP damage per hit).
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  #152  
Old 04-28-2014, 07:39 PM
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Reached chapter 6 today. Quite happy to be past Balbazak, and playing fights properly. I love this game again!

The second boat battle was ridiculously easy, and I'm already feeling the ease of only taking 1-2 damage for most of my guys already. I'll play more tomorrow night.

Rya - any impressions of SFCD? It's been a while since I played it but I remember having fun with it.
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  #153  
Old 04-28-2014, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
The second boat battle was ridiculously easy, and I'm already feeling the ease of only taking 1-2 damage for most of my guys already. I'll play more tomorrow night.
Told you. They just wouldn't believe me. =3

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Rya - any impressions of SFCD? It's been a while since I played it but I remember having fun with it.
Alright here are my impressions:
First of all, I was happy to see how SFCD connects the story between SF1 and SF2 (somewhat) and to see many characters of part 1 to be there again (or at least mentioned in text).

It's funny that now Luke is correctly translated with Lug, but sometimes also with Rug! They couldn't make up their mind. Apparently that game is from the old times were there weren't translation tools that ensured the same word always being translated the same way, heh.

What disappointed me a bit is that there is no exploration in the game. One of the strong aspects of SF1 and SF2 is town exploration, particularly because they were really good with integrating secrets into them (just a town with NPCs to talk to I can live without, but looking for all the secret passages and characters was fun).
The towns are now basically Shining In The Darkness inspired where you see them from the side. But a mini-version of it with no scrolling. Well ok, acceptable, but disappointing.

I was happy to see character growth being really good. They use the "surprisingly random and unique to each character and yet still balanced" growth system of SF1 instead of the "always the same increase per level" system from SF2. However they also improved it a lot with some features that SF2 did well:
1) The promotion penalty is removed (stats stay same when promoting).
2) No more ridiculously high stat increases after promotion (in fact it's even lower than in SF2). No character gets more than 3 increase to a stat on level up and even a 3 increase is very rare after promotion.
---
They also made character growth after promotion really really unique. Even more than in SF1. Basically not every character will get good defense, the hero, the knights and some other characters will have really good DEF and will hardly take more than 1-4 damage, however, other classes like archers, mages and clerics will hardly get any DEF increase at all and can easily be killed in one or two hits. So now, positioning of your characters seems to matter a lot more. I see myself often blocking my mages with tanks so they can't be attacked. This is amazing!

What is also amazing in SFCD is the AI. Man this AI feels almost human. Again the behavior is more SF1 inspired as in each unit has its own behavior pattern rather than all units using the same as in SF2 (the "if no enemy near you, walk 2 steps towards enemy, otherwise attack" AI). But it's not just SF1 good where each unit had a target tile, the units are even more individual. It's actually so unique that it feels very hard for me to tell what the AI will do at all. It always reacts in unexpected ways. It does not always do the optimal predicted move but also does stupid moves. While some might say "Man that AI is stupid it could have killed the mage but still attacked the tank", for me this is something positive because that makes the AI unpredictable. It really feels human. Y'know, like when you play chess and you know your opponent could win with the next step, but he does a different move and you are like "haha". And I rather have an unpredictable AI rather than one that always does the perfect move. This must be my favorite SRPG AI ever. It also does all kinds of neet things. Some units have stat boosting skills but they hardly use them, but then suddenly one unit used boost after all, it surprised me! Units even use their items that they usually just carry so they drop when killed. For example the unit with the heat axe will actually use it for Flame 2. And some units will actually walk all the way to important allied units just to be able to be ready to use their healing item on them when they get wounded.
Almost no unit will just stand around and wait for you, they will almost all move in some also fairly unpredictable way. Some units stand around until you enter a certain region and then go for you as fast as possible. Units will also realize when you try to sneak past them and actually come for you. This AI is just wow...

The battle themselves are also half SF1 half SF2 as in... half of them feel like your generic field battle and the other half are very unique situational battles like in SF1. Because of the good AI they all feel great, though. Even the generic field battles are unique with their AI as I still can't predict how they will behave. I guess the most unique battle so far was the Fizzle Eye battle. How it suprised me when first that one guy in my group said "Strange, there are no magicians in this battle, they must be planning something." And I thought well probably there will be mages popping up as surprise spawns, but no! The Fizzle Eye actually causes all spells in the battle that are cast to fizzle! Should have seen that coming. At least Egress worked and I could change my party to include all physical fighters.

Oh yeah and I decided that in this game I want to level up all the characters evenly even if it means a bit of grinding later on. I do so by always switching out the characters with most exp, but it can vary depending on the level (as movement is very closely related to class - gladiators for examples can move fast in structures and slow in "nature" whereas for beasts/berserkers it's the opposite; also there are some battles more suitable for mages and other not and if I split into 2 groups I need two healers and if I split into 3 groups I need three healers, etc.).

Comparing units from the same class, there can be quite some differences here too. You have two monks very early. Sig, the nephew of Gong basically gets good HP and DEF. Cray who joins a bit later instead gets huge ATK power. It works for the other classes like that too (a bit more ATK for a bit less DEF) but with the monks the difference is most notable.
If I keep up with leveling all characters evenly I can give some output on stats at the end of the game for comparison.
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  #154  
Old 04-29-2014, 05:10 AM
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All the Game Gear games (and SF CD) lack exploration.

What difficulty are you playing at, Rya? I went for the hardest difficulty, which was still not a serious challenge. I wouldn't be surprised if the difficulty level made the AI more aggressive though.

It'd be nice to know more about the AI and stat differences between the first two Game Gear games and SF CD. I've only played Gaiden 1 on SF CD, and Gaiden 2 on Game Gear. As nice as SF CD is visually, I remember the soundtrack being repetitive. It was something that made me unhappy the whole game.

Last edited by dosboot; 04-29-2014 at 06:55 AM.
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  #155  
Old 04-29-2014, 06:04 AM
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I'm playing on "Normal". I tested around a bit with the difficulty settings. It is true that on Hard and Super Hard it will be less random due to the AI doing optimal choices.
But! I must say that I really like how the difficulty only affects the AI (except super hard). I think a lot of strategy games should do that, instead of giving the AI more resources (or stats).

Basically it's:
Easy - No tendency to go for mages, healers, archers or hero
Normal - Higher tendency to go for mages, healers, archers or hero
Hard - Highest tendency to go for mages, healers, archers or hero
Super Hard - Same as hard but monsters have 25% more ATK excluding weapons (e.g. bats that don't use a weapon have 15 instead of 12 ATK)

And yes, the music is a bit repetitive. But the same could be said about SF2. I still have that SF2 overworld map theme that plays in 80% of the battles in my head.
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  #156  
Old 04-29-2014, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rya View Post

What disappointed me a bit is that there is no exploration in the game. One of the strong aspects of SF1 and SF2 is town exploration, particularly because they were really good with integrating secrets into them (just a town with NPCs to talk to I can live without, but looking for all the secret passages and characters was fun).
The towns are now basically Shining In The Darkness inspired where you see them from the side. But a mini-version of it with no scrolling. Well ok, acceptable, but disappointing.
This always bothered me as a kid, too, when I first got Sword of Hajya. I still miss the exploration, too, but now that I enjoy the battle system even more than I did as a kid it doesn't sting as much.

Still would have been nice for them to include some of that in SFCD, though. I'm sure there was no budget for it but it certainly could have been done.

Quote:
I was happy to see character growth being really good. They use the "surprisingly random and unique to each character and yet still balanced" growth system of SF1 instead of the "always the same increase per level" system from SF2. However they also improved it a lot with some features that SF2 did well:
1) The promotion penalty is removed (stats stay same when promoting).
2) No more ridiculously high stat increases after promotion (in fact it's even lower than in SF2). No character gets more than 3 increase to a stat on level up and even a 3 increase is very rare after promotion.
I love this, too. The promotion penalty really hurts SF1.

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So now, positioning of your characters seems to matter a lot more. I see myself often blocking my mages with tanks so they can't be attacked. This is amazing!
I love this too. SF1 weirds me out with how buff the mages and healers tend to be for most of the game. Early on they're pretty fragile, and later on they might become fragile again, but right now I can send Khris or Lowe to the front line and not have to worry about them unless they get surrounded.

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Originally Posted by Rya View Post
And yes, the music is a bit repetitive. But the same could be said about SF2. I still have that SF2 overworld map theme that plays in 80% of the battles in my head.
The overworld theme is pretty repetitive, sure. But that game has the best music in the series, IMO
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  #157  
Old 04-29-2014, 08:38 AM
Rya Rya is offline
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I like the music in all the SF games. You could say it's "Great and repetitive".
Like those 10 second endless repeat music flashs.
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  #158  
Old 04-29-2014, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rya View Post
I like the music in all the SF games. You could say it's "Great and repetitive".
Like those 10 second endless repeat music flashs.
The music that plays while promoted player characters attack in SF1 is awesome.
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  #159  
Old 04-29-2014, 12:01 PM
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I sort of like the promotion penalty for weird flavour reasons. It's like they take a while to get used to their new job. Also it makes it less of a risk free thing to promote - it's not a good idea to promote everybody at the same time.

I didn't say they were good reasons.
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  #160  
Old 04-29-2014, 12:09 PM
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I guess it would work if you didn't actually lose ATK, just the other stats. Or maybe I just promoted too early and couldn't really make up bad attack with better weapons. It was really bothersome getting Max from level 1 to level 2 because he was only dealing 1 HP damage.
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  #161  
Old 04-29-2014, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Phantoon View Post
I sort of like the promotion penalty for weird flavour reasons. It's like they take a while to get used to their new job. Also it makes it less of a risk free thing to promote - it's not a good idea to promote everybody at the same time.

I didn't say they were good reasons.
Yeah, that's the explanation for why new jobs in Final Fantasy 3 are kind of crap when you first switch them, right?

I... can't get into FF3 very much either haha
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  #162  
Old 04-29-2014, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantoon View Post
I sort of like the promotion penalty for weird flavour reasons. It's like they take a while to get used to their new job. Also it makes it less of a risk free thing to promote - it's not a good idea to promote everybody at the same time.

I didn't say they were good reasons.
Yep, me too.
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  #163  
Old 04-30-2014, 08:28 PM
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Played a TON today. I'm stopping at the battle with Colossus for now. I think I'll have enough time to beat the game tomorrow.

The battles remain easy so far but that's probably because I grinded those extra levels. My characters have gotten back to the point where they gain very few/no stats at level up, though. Hopefully the last few battles have some teeth to them (I'm sure I'll eat those words tomorrow haha).
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  #164  
Old 04-30-2014, 08:39 PM
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Characters losing some stats at promotion is the only real reason I level them up a bit past level 10 in SF1. I haven't played much in my replay (I got to chapter 2) but Max is a crazy good tank right now. He takes 1 damage from just about all physical attacks so far and crushes most of the bad guys. But I know when I get further into it, he'll have a little trouble.

But since the enemies are smart enough to go for him, I put him in harm's way to distract the enemies from killing my healers/mages.
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  #165  
Old 04-30-2014, 09:08 PM
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Also what is the point of not allowing Max to cast Egress because he lost his voice? He can still cast Supernova... Not that I really need to use it, but now if I want to leave battles I can walk Max to the entrance if there is one, or bring an Angel Wing.

/nitpick
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  #166  
Old 05-01-2014, 02:43 AM
Rya Rya is offline
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Max can't cast Egress? When did that happen? =o


By the way, I can't share the sentiment that Shining Force CD is easy. In fact it's by far the hardest of the series if you ask me. It's true that it starts off really easy and it's basically impossible to die with the hero only taken 1 damage from all sources. But when it comes to boss fights it gets ridiculously hard. Bosses can move twice per round and have really strong spells. If they want they can just kill the hero without me having any chance of survival.

I'm at the battle where the hero is the only character being able to damage the boss, so I can't stay behind with him. But the boss just casts Demon Breath Level 3 two times the hero is dead. No idea how I'm supposed to win that.
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  #167  
Old 05-01-2014, 03:35 AM
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You must be in the final stretch. I don't really remember what I did other than I tried to be methodical. Can your characters cast Boost for extra speed, or use a protect ring as an item? The shop also sells healing rain at the last couple battles.
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  #168  
Old 05-01-2014, 03:51 AM
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Finally beat it.

Edit: Problem solved.

Last edited by Rya; 05-01-2014 at 04:11 AM.
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  #169  
Old 05-01-2014, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Rya View Post
Max can't cast Egress? When did that happen? =o
Must be a GBA thing.


Quote:
By the way, I can't share the sentiment that Shining Force CD is easy. In fact it's by far the hardest of the series if you ask me. It's true that it starts off really easy and it's basically impossible to die with the hero only taken 1 damage from all sources. But when it comes to boss fights it gets ridiculously hard. Bosses can move twice per round and have really strong spells. If they want they can just kill the hero without me having any chance of survival.

I'm at the battle where the hero is the only character being able to damage the boss, so I can't stay behind with him. But the boss just casts Demon Breath Level 3 two times the hero is dead. No idea how I'm supposed to win that.
I remember having some issues with the final boss of the first book/chapter/whatever in SFCD. I never did make it to the end of the second book/chapter though. Is that where you're at, the end of (essentially) the first Gaiden game? Just curious.
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  #170  
Old 05-01-2014, 09:12 AM
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Yes, that's where I was. I finished Book I and now I'm on Book II.

I think Book I Chapter 4 was generally quite hard. The map with Nick's uncle I had to try 3 times and I died at the following boss battles also (because Nick died). The final battle was really brutal, though. You got to be lucky AND figure out how to the AI behave so you can get it to attack a character that won't die or you don't need anymore.

Book II is so far more enjoyable, mainly because the character don't get THAT much Def, so they actually take more than 1 HP damage.

Monks are still totally overpowered in every Shining Force game. They have more ATK than any character, have as good DEF as your tanks, have the highest HP AND can Heal. They don't even have any downside other than low Agi which doesn't matter that much (sometimes lower agi is even good because it makes you be able to heal right after the enemy attacked) and that they only gain half the MP of a Vicar.

It's like the person who did the stat tables didn't know that Monks can equip weapons!
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  #171  
Old 05-01-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rya View Post
Monks are still totally overpowered in every Shining Force game. They have more ATK than any character, have as good DEF as your tanks, have the highest HP AND can Heal. They don't even have any downside other than low Agi which doesn't matter that much (sometimes lower agi is even good because it makes you be able to heal right after the enemy attacked) and that they only gain half the MP of a Vicar.

It's like the person who did the stat tables didn't know that Monks can equip weapons!
Oddly enough, Gong was pretty much useless as anything other than a healer by the end of my playthrough of SF GBA. Though I agree with you for CD and II!

So, I beat the game about a half hour ago. I thought it was quite good! Certainly one of the better SRPGs I've played. As will be a surprise to no one, I like II better, but I ended up liking the first game a lot more than I thought it would. Enough to want to eventually replay it on the Genesis, someday.

Anyway, I wrote up a blog here: http://rhythmtree.blogspot.com/2014/...n-of-dark.html (I'm on Tapatalk and can't remember the forum code for a nice clean link! Sorry about that!)
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  #172  
Old 05-02-2014, 12:09 AM
Rya Rya is offline
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That is because Monks can't equip weapons in SF1, but they can in the other games, yet their ATK growth is still as high.
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  #173  
Old 05-03-2014, 05:31 AM
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I wrote a small Shining Force growth simulator for fun.

http://www.file-upload.net/download-...rowth.zip.html

It only support 3 classes right now. Promotion is possible from level 10 onward and that's where you also will hardly gain stats anymore. You can opt to include weapon power or not (it will use official weapon stats from Shining Force 1, no cursed weapons will be used).

It also applied the balancing changes done in SFCD, namely to cap increase to 2 before promotion and 3 after promotion.
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  #174  
Old 05-03-2014, 06:05 AM
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I like that you include an option for incorporating weapon attacks at certain levels. When I get really into making spreadsheets for RPGs I do the same. Like, I have a bunch of spreadsheets for the Etrian Odyssey games that compares the average effectiveness of melee classes on a floor-by-floor basis and I spent time to accurately estimate what skills and equipment you would have on each floor, and not just what level you would be.

Looking at your program from an outsider perspective, it'd be nice to also have the underlying formulas you are using for your growths and not just the simulations.

BTW: Someone has made growth spreadsheets for Shining Force 1 using the actual formulas and data (stats only though, no weapons). I'll try to find the links later and post them.

Last edited by dosboot; 05-03-2014 at 06:16 AM.
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  #175  
Old 05-03-2014, 06:30 AM
Rya Rya is offline
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Those formulas would be really interesting! Would be cool if you could find them again.

My program is just based on personal observations and me applying some balance fixes and personal ideas. It's basically me aiming to get the perfect formula to make an imaginary Shining Force fangame.

Basically there are fixed base stat tables in the tool depending on class and then there is random stat bonus assigned. Each stat point gets rolled onto one of the 5 stats, so the chance for an even distribution is much higher than the chance of one stat getting all the bonus.
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  #176  
Old 05-03-2014, 08:56 AM
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I found these at shiningforcecentral.com

1. DarkKobold's tables:
link: SF1stats.zip
original thread: http://forums.shiningforcecentral.co...ic.php?t=10714

2. CajNatalie's tables:
links in the first post: http://forums.shiningforcecentral.co...hp?f=3&t=25645

I'm only familiar with 1. (If you are curious where the table came from, DarkKobold extracted these values and formulas from the rom itself and did a TAS.)

Here's my explanation for using spreadsheet 1:

Overview:
-At the top, rows 1-21 list the average level gains at a glance. These are the inputs to the calculator below.
-In the middle, row 23 has three fields you are allowed to edit to calculate average level gains. These are very poorly named as "Level", "Current", "Promoted".
-Rows 25-29 are the output of the calculator.

Instructions:
The left output gives you stats of a prepromoted character at level N. Set the "Level" field to "N".

The right output gives you stats of a promoted character who was promoted at level N and has reached level M (where 1 <= M <= 20, although it screws up if you set M=1). Set "Current" to "N" and "Promoted" to "M". (Yes, the labels don't make sense.)
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  #177  
Old 05-03-2014, 11:39 AM
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Just now in Shining Force CD it was really weird. I was stopping a character next to a wall... and found a secret character! Haha. There was no visual indication or anything I was just lucky stopping a character there (I spread my character so they don't all get hit by Bolt 2). I guess I should replay Shining Force CD a few years later with a guide, there are probably tons of secrets that are absolutely impossible to find without guide (unless you want to search every wall).

@dosboot
Thanks! It actually works exactly how I coded my program. I also save the stats at promotion in a variable and that's used as the base for after the promotion.

Too bad it doesn't say anything about how randomness works.
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  #178  
Old 05-03-2014, 12:10 PM
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Too bad it doesn't say anything about how randomness works.
The randomness in SF1 is as I described earlier (which I also probably also got from DarkKobold some time ago). The only details I omitted is that the +/- random factor applied is calculated based the average statistic for that level; if the growth curve dictates that a stat should on average equal 'N' at that level, then the +/- random factor will be between 0 and min(N/4,5). (and to state once more, the recalculation system means that each individual random factor has a transient influence future levels.)

Promoted level ups have the same randomness applied to them. The carryover stats from unpromoted to promoted are not random, nor are they affected by your random draws so far; your stats immediately after promoting is given by your current unpromoted stats --- less all random bonuses --- and then multiplied by 0.85.
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  #179  
Old 05-03-2014, 01:13 PM
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Yeah I get how promotion works, I was more wondering on how the randomness is applied (final stat or increase?). I was wondering because say it is +-25% applied to the final stat then that would cause quite high randomness, higher than what I have observed.

For example say one level is 20 HP and the next is 21 HP. On the first level you were unlucky and got -25% that's 15 HP, then the next level you are very luck and that's 26 HP. That would be a 11 HP increase in one level, but in reality, HP never increases by more than 3 at that point.
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  #180  
Old 05-03-2014, 01:36 PM
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As I understand it, there is no maximum increase imposed by the algorithm and you would get +11 hp. However being very unlucky and rolling 15 hp instead of 20 hp usually means you simply get +0 hp for that level (because you already had 19 or 20 hp) and then you might gain +6 or +7 hp for the next.

I think I've had as high as +13 speed in one level with Tao.
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