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  #10621  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
That's kind of an unfortuante bit of news IMO,
How come?
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  #10622  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:56 PM
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How come?
Because it cements Star Trek 09 into canon which is something I'd rather Star Trek just forget happened. Not that I like to pretend the Abrams movies don't exist, but their hamfisted and lazy explanation tying it all to canon was some of the more dubious/awful moments in Star Trek. And there's no reason why we can't just have a completely separate AU Star Trek where Romulus didn't get wiped off the map for really bad/dumb reasons. Like, it's so stupid, you should feel your intelligence being insulted.
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  #10623  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:37 PM
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Because it cements Star Trek 09 into canon which is something I'd rather Star Trek just forget happened. Not that I like to pretend the Abrams movies don't exist, but their hamfisted and lazy explanation tying it all to canon was some of the more dubious/awful moments in Star Trek. And there's no reason why we can't just have a completely separate AU Star Trek where Romulus didn't get wiped off the map for really bad/dumb reasons. Like, it's so stupid, you should feel your intelligence being insulted.
eh. I'm fine with it.
No one ever did anything interesting with the romulans, despite them being inherently neat.

Only trek thing i banish to land of wind and ghosts is augment virus
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  #10624  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:16 PM
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Star Trek is filled with dubious science, so I don't normally get hung up on stuff. The augment virus may not be the explanation you created internally for the difference in TOS and rest-of-the-franchise-Klingons, but it's a reasonable explanation. The warrior species tried to create genetically modified soldiers, but lacked the institutional knowledge to do it properly and the side-effects were disastrous. And it took a century to clean up the mess. Seems pretty in line with the Klingon M.O.

The supernova that destroys Romulus? Fucking elder god tier levels of stupid. On so many levels:

1) A supernova, under zero circumstances, would threaten to destroy the galaxy.

2) A supernova is a natural phenomena, where the ejected energy and matter would, at the fastest rate, be limited to the speed of light. If a neighboring star to Romulus exploded, it would take *years* for the effects to be felt, but Spock "doesn't get to it in time" because...??

3) Throwing a single, artificial black hole at one point of an expanding sphere of a star's ejected matter would be like shooting the side of a barn with a shotgun and expecting the whole barn to collapse.

4) If you create a black hole that can instantly swallow up light years upon light years worth of matter, you've probably got a bigger problem than a supernova.

5) The entire idea of "red matter" is just insanity and has no respect for the conservation of energy/matter.

6) Kirk & Spock routinely travel through time to stop lesser disasters from occurring, but they won't go back and stop the genocide of billions and Romulus/Vulcan from getting senselessly obliterated because... reasons???

7) Nero has the patience to sit around and wait like 30 years for Spock to show up to get his revenge, but doesn't spend a single minute of that time doing anything productive or reflecting on the nature of his task and if a better course could be had.

I'm sure there's more problems, but these are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. The thing is, most of these issues could have been explained away or negated with a small amount of creative writing and a minuscule amount of effort. This was a SUPER supernova that exploded in subspace or some nonsense and was ripping through the galaxy at warp 8. A secret Borg weapon with the Omega molecule was causing these SUPER supernovas to cascade from one star system to the next in a chain reaction. Spock tried to time travel but died before he could explain how to slingshot around a star. Nero spent years trying to figure out how to time travel but to no avail. Like, bam. It took half a minute for me to plaster over those glaring plot holes. But '09 Star Trek doesn't care to do even the bare minimum amount of work to make their nonsense even remotely sensible. It's lazier than a god damned Doctor Who episode. Because they're not trying to be scifi, they're trying to be Star Wars. And it's crummy the idiot in charge of that shitty script is the guy running the entire franchise now.
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  #10625  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:30 PM
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Science of AV is fine, and red matter is dumb

BUT

AV is really putting them into a corner. My expectation is that for Discovery, where klingons look same save no hair, and more wild pigments, will not address that John Colicos looks just greasy and not like a space orc. We know the reasons in reality: technological improvement and artistic license. No one ever explained with Roms all of a sudden had stupid forhead appliances in TNG, or all the same hair all of a sudden. Indeed, it should be ignored. They should have never have addressed it.

Red matter is dumb, supernova dumb - but destruction of Romulus is an OK plot development. I was expecting them not to touch on it at all, or reference subtle like

edit:
Nero's ship was crippled by the Kelvin and then the Klingons captured them and the ship. Most of this is erased from final movie save for Uhura picking up chatter about the klingon fleet being destroyed.
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  #10626  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:41 PM
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Why is it OK? It's super stupid. You're destroying one of the principle adversaries in Star Trek for a disposable, forgettable excuse to reboot/discard decades of Star Trek lore. And then it's used to further commit genocide against a core Federation member species. There's a lot of interesting ideas you could explore with that, but '09 doesn't care because we need to fill the run-time with explosions and fist fights instead.

Besides, Star Trek already explored the interesting parts of those ideas thoroughly anyways. STVI is an entire movie dedicated to the humanitarian/geopolitical crisis cause by the collapse of an adjacent empire. The first half of DS9 is dedicated to the Federation grappling with the humanitarian crisis of Bajor in upheval. There's a really good episode of Enterprise that explores what it would be like if your home planet was destroyed and you had to try and survive/rebuild your species elsewhere. Why would you do something like destroy Romulus and Vulcan and then do nothing interesting with it? It's just a tremendous waste.
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  #10627  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Why is it OK? It's super stupid. You're destroying one of the principle adversaries in Star Trek for a disposable, forgettable excuse to reboot/discard decades of Star Trek lore. And then it's used to further commit genocide against a core Federation member species. There's a lot of interesting ideas you could explore with that, but '09 doesn't care because we need to fill the run-time with explosions and fist fights instead.

Besides, Star Trek already explored the interesting parts of those ideas thoroughly anyways. STVI is an entire movie dedicated to the humanitarian/geopolitical crisis cause by the collapse of an adjacent empire. The first half of DS9 is dedicated to the Federation grappling with the humanitarian crisis of Bajor in upheval. There's a really good episode of Enterprise that explores what it would be like if your home planet was destroyed and you had to try and survive/rebuild your species elsewhere. Why would you do something like destroy Romulus and Vulcan and then do nothing interesting with it? It's just a tremendous waste.
Well they do destroy Romulus. Vulcan is safely gone in now departed Kelvin verse. I'm excited to see what they can do with it in Picard show, as I believed it would never be addressed again.
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  #10628  
Old 01-10-2019, 03:13 PM
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Well they do destroy Romulus. Vulcan is safely gone in now departed Kelvin verse.
Exactly. It's just a disposable, poorly thought out plot device to explain away a soft-reboot for a film series that now seems moribund. You could safely ignore it having ever happened to begin with. But Kurtzman won't let us off of his Wild Ride.
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  #10629  
Old 01-10-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Exactly. It's just a disposable, poorly thought out plot device to explain away a soft-reboot for a film series that now seems moribund. You could safely ignore it having ever happened to begin with. But Kurtzman won't let us off of his Wild Ride.
I'm ok with that - if something comes from it. Nothing Sacred etc
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  #10630  
Old 01-19-2019, 01:51 PM
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I'm nearing the end of TNG S2, and the biggest surprise, aside from finding the general quality way better than expected, is that I really like Pulaski. I understand that she made a very bad first impression (arguing that how you spell someone elses name is shitty, as is refering to the person as "it"). But that stuff happens only in two episodes at the beginning of the season.

She feels like she has an actual personality, and can be pretty hardheaded. But she is very passionate regarding life and protecting it.

She does feel unfit for Picards Enterprise, as she does break up the harmony there. I appreciate that harmony, so I'm not that happy with Pulasky there. But I feel like she would have been a great fit for DS9. She just seems like a more complex character than her crew members, more in line with someone like Kira or Odo. Oh well, it's a shame.

Also, I think I have a small crush on Picard. He is just way too sexy when he does his speeches, especially when they are about how important History, Art and Philosophy are.
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  #10631  
Old 01-19-2019, 02:39 PM
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The tonal whiplash watching 90s Star Trek in broadcast order is astounding. At first I thought this was just the product of streaming video culture, but no. On one night on October 9, 1995, the following two episodes both aired for the first time:

Voyager: A homely space hobbit is driven into a jealous rage with he realizes the resident bad boy has a crush on his CBS sitcom wife, a manic space pixie dream girl child bride. The space hobbit and the bad boy crash land on on planet ABC's Dinosaurs and resolve their differences while raising the "Not the Mama!" baby.

DS9: Future Jake Sisko reflects on his tragic life after being orphaned when his father died in a time distortion accident. Haunted by ghostly reappearances of his unstuck in time father, Jake's life falls apart as becomes increasingly desperate to find a way to free his lost father from time purgatory. Finally, future Jake commits suicide to save his father's life.

(I am enjoying Voyager, for the record. It weirdly feels like a throwback to TOS, but with a more interesting cast?)
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  #10632  
Old 01-19-2019, 03:23 PM
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To be fair, that's one of the best episodes of all DS9. The Voyager one is... not.
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  #10633  
Old 01-19-2019, 03:27 PM
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To be fair, that's one of the best episodes of all DS9. The Voyager one is... not.
Yeah, that's a big part of what makes it so hilarious!

At least at this point in time, in general Voyager is the relaxing hangout show (even when stakes are relatively high) and DS9 is the serious drama show (even when it's on the goofy side).

And these two episodes both airing in one night is like the most exaggerated possible expression of their tonal differences.
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  #10634  
Old 01-19-2019, 04:03 PM
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Voyager's intent from the very beginning was to be the spiritual successor to TNG and do more TNG-y things while DS9 tried to be It's Own Thing. And TNG, at its core, is very much an evolved version of TOS. So the math all checks out.
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  #10635  
Old 01-19-2019, 04:59 PM
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I think there's even something more there than just Voyager being positioned as a TNG successor, and TNG being a TOS successor.

TOS is very much a cold war show, and TNG is very much a 90s end of history show. This doesn't mean that TNG has no conflict, because obviously it does. But there's a huge epistemological gap between the TOS and TNG worldview.

Voyager, by being stranded in the middle of nowhere and losing its connection to the infinite bounty of star fleet infrastructure, returns the position of its characters to somewhere closer to TOS. Voyager does still share the end of history optimism that TNG introduced, but it's a return at least in part to a fundamentally messier world. (Thinking about this, I'm reminded of when I was reading about the earliest Kirk/Spock shippers who hated TNG because it felt "bloodless.")

There is definitely a clear TOS-->TNG-->VOY lineage, but I think that Voyager (at least as of early Season 2) is a return to the starting point, rather just building on its immediate predecessor.
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  #10636  
Old 01-19-2019, 05:24 PM
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I think that's right. But as much as Voyager's unmooring has to do with returning to a TOS-era idea of exploring the vast unknown, it was also a way to sufficiently further differentiate Voyager from DS9 as Their Own Things. Since DS9 is the show where everything and everyone is affixed in space to an anchored location/known political landscape on a stationary space station, the producers of Voyager probably felt compelled to take its other spin-off in a direction that further accentuated its distinctiveness so viewers didn't feel like they were watching the same show back to back and get bored/fatigued. DS9 is very preoccupied with continuing the legacy of TNG's/TOS's political theater but thematically forging its own path; VOY is only concerned with carrying on its pure, core spirit instead. (Well, until the Borg shows up at least.)

Speaking of "End of History", that's a pretty interesting angle to come from with Star Trek. TOS is about humanity reaching that point. TNG/DS9/VOY dabbles in having our society more fully embrace and integrate aliens into our End of History society. Enterprise then, in some ways, takes that progression of humanity to the extreme as it literally breaks down the linear flow of time and as humanity begins to explore transhumanism.
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  #10637  
Old 01-19-2019, 05:40 PM
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If nothing else, I'd agree that Voyager has the highest "this is totally a TOS episode" ratio by volume of any other spin-off. I love the episode with the clown. My god it's great.
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  #10638  
Old 01-19-2019, 07:45 PM
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Me and JBear finally started Deep Space Nine. I think I was warned by some defensive fans that the first season isn't that strong but I have to say, the first four episodes (I'm counting the pilot as two) are actually pretty decent. I mean, not top tier Trek, but solid episodes that are neither slogs nor amusing in an unintentional way like a lot of The Next Generation was.

The first one is pretty strong as pilots go. I feel there's some odd acting from Avery Brooks in the first episode. In some cases, it works very well. His "plea bargaining" scene with Quark comes off as a highlight. But the first conversation he has with his wife in flashback world feels weird. I can't say quite why. I'm not even 100% sure the problem was with his acting. It could have been the directing or a lack of chemistry with the actress. But it felt... off.

But anyway, I think it did a surprisingly solid job of introducing the cast (often difficult to do without being clunky), the whole "teaching aliens what time" stuff was really solid and it hummed along at the right pace.

"A Man Alone" was... passable. I have no complaints about it, but I also don't have a lot to say about it either. Good viewing.

"Past Prologue" was much stronger. It actually also got me more interested in the Bajoran/Cardassian conflict, something I never felt strongly about in the Next Generation. I'm still not getting a lot from either race culturally aside from "jerks" and "people who spent 60 years victimized by jerks", so the races themselves aren't interesting to me. But I know the show gets more morally complex as it goes on and this episode has enough hints of John La Carre that pleases me.

Speaking of, I thought that Garak (a great addition to the cast) might have been a reference to La Carre's "The Tailor of Panama" but the character originated a few years before the book. So now I'm wondering if all tailor/spy stories have a similar source from history. Now I want to rewatch "The Tailor of Panama". Oh, and "Our Man in Havana"

The main thing I really want explored is Odo. Not the "what race does he come from" mystery, which I'm sure will be addressed, but rather the fact that he's a guy who's worked for an oppressive regime and now works for the people they oppressed. That's some great foundation for a fascinating character. Unfortunately, most of tonight was being cranky and... having some questionable views on marriage (Jesus, Odo).

So, yeah, I was sort of expecting it to be a bit of a weak start and was pleasantly surprised. Looking forward to when the show gets into it's strong period.
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  #10639  
Old 01-19-2019, 08:02 PM
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The main thing I really want explored is Odo. Not the "what race does he come from" mystery, which I'm sure will be addressed, but rather the fact that he's a guy who's worked for an oppressive regime and now works for the people they oppressed.
Oh, they'll get into that.
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  #10640  
Old 01-19-2019, 09:42 PM
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Me and JBear finally started Deep Space Nine. I think I was warned by some defensive fans that the first season isn't that strong but I have to say, the first four episodes (I'm counting the pilot as two) are actually pretty decent.
DS9 Season 1 is Actually Good. There's tons of reasons why you'll hear the bad meme of early DS9 being "bad" being perpetuated among fans. Some of it is "Not My Trek" syndrome affecting people's initial introduction to the show. Some of it is due to the fact that a distressingly large number of fans of Star Trek don't come for the morality plays or the slow contemplative nature of dilemmas of the week and only care about hard sci-fi or things blowing up. Some people just don't have patience or appreciation for slow, methodical introductions to characters/settings that some media likes to indulge in before getting into the meat of a story. Some people have a curious rejection to any media whose stories aren't serialized. Some people see some of the season's occasional duds and let that color their perception of the season as a whole. But if you come at DS9 S1 with an open mind, there's a lot to like here. It's probably the strongest first season of a Star Trek show barring the Original Series.
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  #10641  
Old 01-19-2019, 11:44 PM
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There are people who watch Star Trek for the hard science? That has to be one of the most frustrating watching experiences ever, no matter which of the shows you watch.
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  #10642  
Old 01-20-2019, 04:50 AM
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My favourite hard science in the Star Trek universe is that there are just planets out there that are 100% Earth with nearly identical histories. SO HARD!
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  #10643  
Old 01-20-2019, 07:36 AM
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DS9 Season 1 is Actually Good. There's tons of reasons why you'll hear the bad meme of early DS9 being "bad" being perpetuated among fans.
Being surprised to find that common criticisms of Trek are somewhat overblown or reductive is basically the point of this thread now.

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My favourite hard science in the Star Trek universe is that there are just planets out there that are 100% Earth with nearly identical histories. SO HARD!
That would be an astronomical coincidence, wouldn't it?
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  #10644  
Old 01-20-2019, 02:20 PM
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There are people who watch Star Trek for the hard science? That has to be one of the most frustrating watching experiences ever, no matter which of the shows you watch.
Are there any hard science tv shows? I can't think of any.

I guess if you're grading on a curve (a really, really steep curve) then Star Trek TNG/DS9 is hard-ish sci fi compared to contemporaries like Quantum Leap or Stargate. Maybe.
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  #10645  
Old 01-20-2019, 03:18 PM
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If anime counts, there's Planetes, Space Brothers, and Rocket Girls.
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  #10646  
Old 01-20-2019, 07:21 PM
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^Those. Especially Planetes.

But The Expanse might have a big hard sci-fi buy-in in that they've invented an ultra-efficient Brachistochrone Drive in-universe. But most* of the series is built upon plausible mid-future stuff. Like, the series should actually get special mention for, say, its casting of people with Marfan Syndrome as Belters.

[You should watch The Expanse, though]

EDIT: also, as far as screen media in general, there's 2001: A Space Odyssey, 2010: The Year we Make Contact, Europa Report, Moon, The Martian. We're rife with plausible mid-future shit - we're just not at the point as a culture to handle astronauts jacking-off in a transhab radiation cellar for half a year on our way out to a Mars flyby.

Last edited by Peach; 01-20-2019 at 07:43 PM.
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  #10647  
Old 01-21-2019, 06:26 AM
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^Those. Especially Planetes.
Funny, because I was thinking "^Those. Especially Space Brothers."
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  #10648  
Old 01-21-2019, 06:37 AM
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Are there any hard science tv shows? I can't think of any.
Orphan Black, maybe, until they introduce bio-slugs and a very old man.
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  #10649  
Old 01-21-2019, 06:43 AM
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Old men confirmed fictional.
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  #10650  
Old 01-21-2019, 06:47 AM
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Old men confirmed fictional.
My favourite mythical character was George Burns.
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