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  #61  
Old 01-03-2019, 09:19 AM
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Can't wait to see what the one person Frank deliberately didn't kill does with his new lease on life.

Last edited by BEAT; 01-03-2019 at 09:20 AM. Reason: I BET WHATEVER IT IS INVOLVES LEAVING HIS OLD LIFE OF VIOLENCE BEHIND, AND *DEFINITELY* NOT TRYING TO HUNT DOWN & KILL FRANK.
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  #62  
Old 01-06-2019, 06:03 AM
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Here's hoping he at least gets progressively gnarlier throughout the season.
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  #63  
Old 01-20-2019, 09:12 AM
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So Season 2 of Marvel's Shooty Bang-Bang Man hit on Friday, and no cancellation yet!

Episode 1: Frank Castle is just hitting the road and trying to enjoy his life but he just keeps getting pulled back in, this time thanks to a teenager that seems to have gotten waaaaaay in over her head. Franks wastes no time getting back into the swing of things and Punishering up some baddies.

MVP of the episode: Ringo. RIP.

Episode 2: Frank ties the aforementioned teenager to a bed and gags her.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Yes it's so she won't run away, or be loud enough to get people to investigate their motel room while Frank sleeps off the, um, bullet wounds. It was still just a bit startling.

Meanwhile, Billy Russo may or may not have amnesia and really really loves wearing his favorite WD Gaster cosplay mask. And the second villain of the series is a major creepazoid, and may be a neo-nazi on top of a religious extremist, so I can't wait for the cries of 'inserting politics' to start.

So far it's, eh, it's not bad. Mostly I'm just here to watch Frank go about his business, but it feels kinda odd watching it and knowing the axe could fall on it any dang day now.
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  #64  
Old 01-20-2019, 07:19 PM
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First episode thoughts:

Itís weird to see Frank beating up and stabbing ladies.

Why did Bad Guy send two dozen armed goons to kill a teenager? Because Frank needed a bunch of people to kill.

No Micro this time?

Thatís it. Not much to chew on for the premiere.
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  #65  
Old 01-20-2019, 07:25 PM
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I really enjoyed the first episode and I hope the fight scenes continue to be this good. They were the high point of the first season for me, too.
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  #66  
Old 01-21-2019, 05:57 AM
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Yeah I'm not expecting it to last but the first episode was a good one hour action movie.
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  #67  
Old 01-21-2019, 09:43 PM
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I'm 5 episodes deep now and I think this is gonna be fairly high on my rankings list? The action part took a sidestep for more character development, but imo there's enough different characters to make it not feel like it's spinning its wheels. It's also got this neat role reversal where Frank is the one giving advice about being at peace with yourself.
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  #68  
Old 01-22-2019, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL View Post
Episode 2: Frank ties the aforementioned teenager to a bed and gags her.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Can honestly say I wasn't expecting Punisher to remake Black Snake Moan.
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  #69  
Old 01-22-2019, 06:50 AM
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Black Snake Moan is a movie I enjoyed watching in 2006 but am absolutely never ever ever going to watch again for any reason.
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  #70  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:45 PM
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Woo man these Netflix writers sure do know how to be heavy-handed.

There's a whole lot of violence in this season. Sometimes I'll wonder how exactly Frank manages to kill a room full of like 8 dudes, but then I stop worrying about it. He may not have any powers like the other Marvels, but he's just that good at fighting rooms full of guys.
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  #71  
Old 01-25-2019, 07:40 AM
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Default I THINK I'M LIKE, 4 EPISODES IN.

Am I really supposed to buy that Punny's new SIDEKICK is 16?

Like, when she said "I'm 16 you should call Child Protective Services" to the cops, I was like "wow this 24-year-old who obviously and transparently lies about everything is REALLY reaching here".

But apparently that's supposed to be the actual age of the character?
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  #72  
Old 01-25-2019, 07:42 AM
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Also, the only reason I know the bad guy's name is "Pilgrim" is due to the subtitles.

Gotta say, his "WHAT IF YOUR PASTOR BUT EEEEEEVIL" shtick got crazy old crazy fast.
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  #73  
Old 01-25-2019, 08:08 AM
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Default STRAW FEMINISM AT IT'S MOST OBNOXIOUS AND OBVIOUS.

Also Sidekick's occasional "OH SO JUST BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN" lines feel like a rather mean-spirited attempt by one of the writers to cut off various (absolutely legitimate) criticisms of sexism in marvel stuff.

Like.

Equal parts "YOU CAN'T SAY WE'RE SEXIST CUZ WE HAVE A GIRL POINTING OUT SEXISIM!" and "THIS CHARACTER IS YOU ALWAYS WHINING ABOUT SEXISIM AT INOPPORTUNE MOMENTS!"

It feels very juvenile. Like how a dumb teenager would envision a woman complaining about rampant sexisim. An angry girl looking for excuses to be angry, shouting "HOW DARE YOU ASSUME I CAN SEW JUST BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN!" upon being asked to help someone stitch up a bullet wound.

It's a very weird specific sort of sexist that could only spring fully formed from the mind of someone who's already convinced THE FEMINISTS are out to get them.

Last edited by BEAT; 01-25-2019 at 08:56 AM. Reason: YOU GET THE IMPRESSION SOMEONE IN THE WRITERS ROOM GOT CALLED OUT ON SOME BULLSHIT, AND WAS REALLY PISSED OFF ABOUT IT.
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  #74  
Old 01-25-2019, 08:17 AM
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21 is about as close as media gets to actual teenagers, usually.
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  #75  
Old 01-25-2019, 08:58 AM
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I've spent too many years working with actual teenagers for TV SHOW TEENAGERS to ever land for me.
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  #76  
Old 01-25-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
Am I really supposed to buy that Punny's new SIDEKICK is 16?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
It feels very juvenile. Like how a dumb teenager would envision a woman complaining about rampant sexisim. An angry girl looking for excuses to be angry, shouting "HOW DARE YOU ASSUME I CAN SEW JUST BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN!" upon being asked to help someone stitch up a bullet wound.
I mean, you kind of answered your own criticism here? Anyway, she stops doing that pretty much after that episode is done.
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  #77  
Old 01-25-2019, 09:51 AM
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There are much better ways to "make a teenager look not that smart" than "Giving sexists a straw feminist punching bag to validate their pre-conceived biases."

I'm saying the WRITERS are the ones who strike me as immature assholes here.
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  #78  
Old 01-25-2019, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
There are much better ways to "make a teenager look not that smart" than "Giving sexists a straw feminist punching bag to validate their pre-conceived biases."

I'm saying the WRITERS are the ones who strike me as immature assholes here.
And I'm saying that happens in 1 scene and never comes up again, so it's not really an agenda the writers of the show are trying to push.
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  #79  
Old 01-25-2019, 10:44 AM
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Also I've had a woman IRL respond to me like that girl does because she thought I was being sexist and assuming something about her job (I came off that way too so it's not like she was wrong). In both situations it involved 2 people who didn't really know each other with an unbalanced power differential between them, so I do think it's a stretch to call it a strawman.
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  #80  
Old 01-27-2019, 09:25 PM
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Man this season really could have dropped the plot with Billy Russo and his therapist entirely and I don't think it would have mattered much at all. I don't even think there's an argument to be made that his story is relevant on a thematic level because the foil between Frank and the other antagonist already covers plenty of ground for an entire season of a show.

The writers also tried to have their cake and eat it too when they made characters talk about whether Frank Castle is a good person or not. I kept waiting for this season to try and say something poignant about how utterly violent and nihlistic The Punisher is. It comes pretty close, but then the very last scene is Frank walking into a drug meet he secretly set up, saying "wanna dance?" and then pulling out 2 machine guns and yelling. It's like all of these Marvel shows are required to have 2 bad ideas for every 1 good idea.
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  #81  
Old 01-28-2019, 05:59 AM
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After one fight scene in the previous three episodes, the seventh episode ends with a shootout... and then cuts to credits as soon as the ensuing car chase begins. Come on guys, you know nobody is watching this for the drama.
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  #82  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:11 AM
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WELL THAT SURE WAS AN ENDING.

GUYS, I DON'T THINK THIS SHOW WAS... GOOD.
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  #83  
Old 01-29-2019, 01:48 PM
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Uuurrrggghghghh okay here we fuckin go. If you care about Spoilers, avert thine eyes and scroll quickly. But you really SHOULDN'T care about spoilers because this season of TV is WAY more bad than good, and I'm doing literally everything I can to rescue you from watching it. I bare this burden for you, because I care.

Now then, let's dive right in, shall we?

THE GOOD.

I DIDN'T HATE MOST OF THE CHARACTERS (MOST OF THE TIME). Jon Bernthal is still really fucking good at selling Frank Castle as terrifying and violent, but also understandable and relatable. It took me awhile to warm up to Pilgrim (who I guess is supposed to be some dork from the comics called the Mennonite?) but I was interested in where they were going with him by the end. Curtis was already good in Season 1, he's still good here. Agent Medani got on my nerves sometimes but I was mostly onboard. Jigsaw and His doctor... well the actors TRIED. God, they really tried, you know? They tried the hardest.

THE FIGHTS KICKED ASS. No, nothing came close to Daredevil's PRISON FIGHT or HALLWAY FIGHT, but what we got is pretty good. It's all mean, nasty, dirty fights that carry a sense of desperation and exhaustion. If you know the name of the show, you know that Frank is always going to win, but he never feels like an unstoppable action hero that the bad guys have no hope of taking down. Every hit feels like it has weight and impact, which is way more than I can say about the two guys wearing the invincibility armor in the final battle of Black Panther.

THAT RUSSIAN MOB BOSS GUY. He was barely in the show at all, but I remember his few moments of screentime with impossible clarity, because he came across as so... HUMAN. Like he got that he didn't deserve a second chance, made it clear that he was absolutely not going to do anything to fuck it up when he seemed like he was getting one, and accepted it without protest when the universe said otherwise. They pulled off an awful lot with very little, and that's pretty cool.

THE BAD.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THIS SHOW HAVE AGAINST PSYCHIATRISTS? Ho-lee muther of fucker you guys. Okay, okay here goes.

So remember Billy, the only guy who Frank actively DECIDED not to kill from season 1? Good news, Well he's back and his brain's all messed up! Good news though, his recovery is being overseen by actress Floriana Lima, The WORST MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL OF ALL TIME. Everything Billy does is enouraged by her as "part of his recovery" right up to the point where he uses her to break out of hospital. Then he robs a bank follows her home and trashes her house while violently screaming at her, which causes her to fall deeply in love with him and they get right down to banging. THEN it's revealed that she became a psychiatrist Because her dad tried to murder-suicide her, but only succeeded in the suicide part! Then she uses her Magic brain knowledge powers to set up a plan for Billy to beat the Punisher! Via murdering innocents!

The way she immediately jumps from "Mental health professional" to "banging her psychotic patient" to telling her psychotic patient exactly who to murder in what feels like about half a week runs across the line separating"believable villain" and "Fucking ridiculous" and never looks back. Floriana Lima struggles mightily against her character's terrible writing, but it's a fight she can't possibly win.

This show hates psychology so much, I'm surprised the church of Scientology didn't get a writer's credit.

THE WRITERS ARE FUCKING COWARDS. So that murdering innocents thing that the doctor came up with that I just mentioned? Basically what happened there was that Billy got frank all good and pissed off, then ran away, somehow knowing that Frank would be SO pissed off that he'd just fire blindly at the walls Billy just ducked behind hoping to hit him. Then frank follows billy into the room he just blind-fired into to find... three dead ladies! Oh No! Frank's unchecked rage and total disregard for firearm safety caused him to kill hostages! Frank is devastated by this news!

And then we find out that no, Billy shot all the women before Frank even arrived, and then left their bodies in that room in the hopes that Frank would blindly spray his machine guns through the walls and THINK he killed them. But he didn't! Frank no longer has to feel bad or guilty about anything and can happily go onto the next really big fight scene where he... fires blindly through a wall.

And I'm just like... NO! FUCK YOU! TAKE THAT BACK, COWARDS!

The show teases at the idea of making frank complicit in doing a bad thing, comes so close to making him actually deal with having done bad thing, then wimps out at the last moment. Because we cant POSSIBLY let the Punisher, the "HERO" of the story, be forced to confront the fact that his "HEROICS" are in fact terrifyingly dangerous. That might result in character growth, or force the viewers to ask actual questions about the nature of violence! and we can't have THAT, now can we?

THE EPILOGUE. So after everything is said & done, We get a little "3 Months Later" scene, where the PUNISHER is revealed to still be out & about PUNISHING full time. And god it's just... god.

Imagine if you will, one of those really gross *GANG VIOLENCE* movies from the 70s. The ones that were basically thinly veiled excuses to have a macho white dude taking on CRIMINAL GANGS (read: Groups of poor, non-white youth) by doing BRUTAL MURDER to STOP CRIME.

It's that. Only WORSE because it explicitly implies that Frank is "punishing" them BEFORE THEY ACTUALLY DID ANYTHING WRONG. The not-bloods and the not-crips both came to ABANDONED WAREHOUSE for an explicit cease-fire meeting, not in the middle of any sort of HUGE CRIME and Frank lit them up for just showing up for a good faith discussion.

I mean God, there's Tasteless and dumb and then there's WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU EVEN DOING.

Well that about covers the Good and the Bad, so I bet you can all guess what comes next!

TO BE CONTINUED.

What seriously you're just gonna stop right there BEAT? Fucking lazy jackass.
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  #84  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:10 PM
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Itís not a surprise that a show that demonizes the mentally ill also hates mental health practitioners.
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  #85  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:38 PM
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Everything BEAT says about THE BAD is 100% true. The Billy Russo plot absolutely drags down this season, and the fact that the writers are too goddamn cowardly to try and be morally complicated. Maybe someone on the writing team wanted it, because it definitely feels like in parts of the season, but the overall message is definitely "don't worry, this violence-hungry guy is still Good because... he fucking just is okay just accept it he only kills bad guys duh."
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  #86  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:50 PM
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Like, especially because this particular incarnation of The Punisher was born in season 2 of Daredevil, a show that goes to arduous lengths discussing the morality of its protagonist and then specifically the debate between Frank and Matt during that season of the show, this season really had somewhat of a duty to not so easily brush it off. Just because Karen Page says Frank is a good person doesn't make it true!
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  #87  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:35 PM
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*Slow exhale*

Yeah....... yeah.

This season was a mess. There was a nugget of of a good idea in most of the plot threads but they're all squandered, and the rest of the plot threads should have been left on the cutting room floor (mostly the psychiatrist).

And yeah, that last scene, wow. Not only does Frank decide to gun down a bunch of non-white youth in the middle of ceasefire talks (which, I think it's implied, Frank set up in the first place?), but it's the final scene in a season where he was perfectly happy to offer second chances to 1) A murderous Russian mob boss (as great as his performance was) because he had kids, 2) An ex-Neo Nazi who killed just.... just so many people, again because he had kids, and 3) The grand mastermind behind Amy's plot, though in his case it was less a second chance and more a pick your poison, but still.

Juggling two largely separate antagonist storylines has been a problem pretty much every second season of these Marvflix shows, but I think this one handled it the most poorly. Mostly because the Russo and Pilgrim plot threads never, ever even come close to coming together. The only common link between these two villains, besides Frank, is Madani and even that's only because Pilgrim creeped on her that one time and that's dropped pretty much immediately.

Also, way to waste a Karen Page cameo. I was honestly kinda happy when it was confirmed she would appear in Season 2, since it would mean one last chance to see the character after the cancellation of Daredevil, but they really didn't do anything with her. Her biggest contribution to the plot was getting the evidence to clear Frank, and to threaten to maybe think about kissing him kind of. In the end she's sent off with a 'funny' gag about having to give her shoes to the weirdo guy in the morgue for the info they need, and I guess that's it! Everyone wave goodbye to Karen Page!

The show hasn't been canceled yet, but honestly, just give it a bit of time. All that's left is Jessica Jones S3. Maybe this whole Marvflix experiment will at least go out on a high note?
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  #88  
Old 02-12-2019, 06:34 PM
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I made it through about 6 episodes of wondering why I was actually watching this before I just gave up. I don't think I'll miss it.
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  #89  
Old 02-13-2019, 07:37 AM
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Yeah if you're not feeling it, I'm not sure I can say it really gets any better. Season 2 just is what it is.

Weirdly enough, this has not been canceled yet. Daredevil was canceled really soon after its actually quite good third season. But nothing here yet. Now I don't know what to think!
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  #90  
Old 02-14-2019, 04:40 PM
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Finished season 2 and basically the stuff BEAT said.

Though not enough seems to have been said about how not good the Jigsaw portion half of it was. I feel like almost every element was a deep misstep. So he loses his memory? OK. But I don't feel like much is done with what should be the horror of a character discovering he is a super awful person and can't remember that you are and everyone hates you. It's talked about but it has no impact.

Obviously, Jigsaw's psychiatrist lover angle is "ugh" and worrying.

Also... what's with the scars? Look, I know this seems superficial, but they aren't ugly scars. They are practically charming. Pilgrim and Castle look much worse throughout the season. And I know scars don't have to be deep or fugly to leave a mark on the psyche as well but... c'mon. That guy hardly looks like a Jigsaw puzzle.

I couldn't get a handle on the character all season. I guess the show wants us to sympathize with him some but the show doesn't do a good job actually allowing us to do that.

The closest is the scene where the character finds himself in a dumpster (which feels like an origin moment for a Batman villain) and then when he sees Frank, who just ups and shoots him. Good scenes and I wish the show had a much better build-up to them. Like if he was an interesting villain or something. Wanting to ruin Frank by trying to get him to kill innocents is a good plan but the execution is lame.

As BEAT said, it would be much more interesting if he could get him to do something awful. One of the Marvel editors once said "Everyone wants to pitch me 'what if the Punisher killed an innocent' and the answer is always 'It's a two panel story: Punisher does that, then shoots himself.'" But I think there are other ways to make Frank complicit in something bad that allows his "no compromise" attitude still allows him to stay alive while at the same time completely attacking his sense that he should be doing this.

Frankly, I would rather the season be just Frank vs. Pilgrim and the rich family I can't be bothered to remember the name of. Those scenes in the finale where much more interesting than the time filling Jigsaw stuff.
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