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  #31  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:12 AM
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You can talk about the other games if you want! I think part of the reason everyone's talking about the console games is because they've been talking about the GBA games in the Let's Play Microgames: Not Worth Its Own Thread thread. I've been lurking there because, like I mentioned before, I'm a story-kind of Fire Emblem fan so I don't have much to add to a discussion about mechanics (and BREAKING said mechanics), although it is fascinating.
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  #32  
Old 07-25-2011, 08:24 AM
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Then you'll be even more dissapointed that FE4/5 are generally (to my knowledge anyways) considered the best FE games, and they're Japanese only (then again, you could actually emulate those).
Ah, I've tried FE4 actually, some time ago. It's really intriguing, with the whole genealogy system and how you can pass the parents' ability to their children. Although I haven't played past the first couple of maps (for reasons not related to gameplay), but I can tell it's a lot more challenging than the GBA games, initially at least.

But ugh, those maps are kind of HUGE. Like, three times the size of other FE games' maps. I can't even begin to imagine how it feels if (when) I very nearly finish the map, then have to reset because one of the guys died due to a lucky critical or something.

Like Chu there, story in FE is kind of important to me, which is one of the major reasons why FE7 is my undisputed favorite among the FE games I've played. Sure, the actual plot itself is nothing special, but I remember being impressed by the outstanding quality of the presentation and characterization. I genuinely felt that every single playable characters are truly interesting, well-designed, and very well-developed; either through the main story or Support conversations. And the mechanic isn't too bad either: definitely the most accessible & balanced, while still providing some degree of challenge.
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  #33  
Old 07-25-2011, 08:35 AM
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Chapter 8 in Path Of Radiance is such a crapshoot. I've beaten this game 5 times, and it's still a fucking nightmare to come up with a concrete foolproof plan. And this is on Normal Mode! This is truly the Dorter Slums of Fire Emblem...except harder.
Send Titania south, Boyd and Oscar east, and Ike, Soren, and Mia west. *shrug* I've routed that mission a couple of times on Hard.
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  #34  
Old 07-25-2011, 09:15 AM
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Send Titania south, Boyd and Oscar east, and Ike, Soren, and Mia west. *shrug* I've routed that mission a couple of times on Hard.
That's basically what I did, but someone ended up dying each time. Anyways, I ended up beating it, and no mission so far has been as difficult, at least for me.
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  #35  
Old 07-25-2011, 10:08 AM
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The only Fire Emblem game I've played significantly is Shadow Dragon, and while it was fun and cerebral...it was bone-dry in terms of story. I guess I expected too much out of an NES-remake on that front.

It is nice to hear that the more recent games don't suffer from the same issue. I'll have to check those out.
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  #36  
Old 07-25-2011, 12:45 PM
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Radiant Dawn is an interesting game, in terms of a mental exercise.

It's clear that Nintendo wants to do something to innovate the series, but they have no idea how. Introducing special techs like Aether and whathaveyou were awesome in Path, but at the same time incredibly broken. Then, they become completely pointless in Dawn when every boss has Nihilism.

Oh, and permadeath is bullshit.
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  #37  
Old 07-25-2011, 12:53 PM
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Oh, and permadeath is bullshit.
The games would be incredibly easy without permadeath.
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  #38  
Old 07-25-2011, 12:55 PM
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Ghost Recon Shadow Wars feels to me sort of like Fire Emblem With Guns, and I like the way it handles permadeath: it cuts out the middleman and just makes you lose when any party member dies, but then there are abstract, non-plot-related skirmishes where you use expendable generics.
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  #39  
Old 07-25-2011, 01:05 PM
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The games would be incredibly easy without permadeath.
Don't care.

Any game where intricate story lines are interwoven between Game Icon and Random Nobody #13 leads to an exclusion of story, or when Game Icon gets a super mega bonus item from Random Nobody #9 leads to an exclusion of said item, is bullshit.

What winds up happening is a battle restart every time, because you don't know if Random Nobody #7 is going to be worth saving in the future. It defeats the point of grunt characters.

-edit-

Langrisser always had the best balance to this between Shining Force (no penalty) and Fire Emblem (too bullshit). Buying actual grunts for commanders to use was pretty smart. If your commander dies, then it really does become your fault, and permadeath makes sense.
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  #40  
Old 07-25-2011, 01:11 PM
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Well, that's your modus operandi. I've known people that don't know or don't care, or would rather accept the loss than replay the map again.
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  #41  
Old 07-25-2011, 01:13 PM
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The practical effect it ends up having is that it introduces a new loss condition to the game, making the battles more interesting; alternatively, if you ignore them, parts of the storyline change dynamically, reflecting your actions and having further effects on the gameplay. Other contemporary RPGs wish they had that kind of verisimilitude. As a strategy game there are frustrations associated with giving every redshirt in your army a face, a name, a story, and non-negotiable mortality, but there's clear benefits to the practice.

Fire Emblem has a ton of design relics; many of its individual mechanics seem outdated and anti-fun when considered in isolation, but the interaction between them produces some of the series' unique properties.
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  #42  
Old 07-25-2011, 06:02 PM
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I just spent some time with FE4 for the first time, playing a ways into the second mission. Now I kinda want a modern Fire Emblem done in the style of this one. It feels a little slow and archaic, but that's inevitable coming off the GBA games.

As much as I sometimes enjoy the smaller indoor missions in the series, I love the huge, kingdom spanning maps in this one, though I'm sure the longer mission length is a pain later on. I can't count how many times I've had too many units all bottlenecked in one area in the other games*, so it's pretty refreshing to be able to deploy as many units as I want and actually have the room to use them all effectively. Though given the huge groups of enemies the game likes to throw at you, it's kind of necessary anyway. It sort of makes it feel more like I have an actual army here, and not the "ragtag band of mercenaries" thing a lot of the other games tend to push. Battles honestly seem more epic. Also, the castle mechanic is a pretty great way of working the whole "base" thing into the actual gameplay.

Obviously I haven't gotten far enough to see the skill/stat inheritance mechanics, but I'm pretty big on the idea of genealogy systems in RPGs, so it would have to be really poorly executed for me to not like it(though I'm sure it's fine). The only thing that does seem like a bad idea is how limited the inventory is, what with personal money and only lovers being able to trade. These are interesting ideas in theory that make a kind of sense, but in practice they're just an inconvenience.

I don't really mind us not getting the DS remake of FE3 since it seems like more of what we got in Shadow Dragon, but if they do this one and it doesn't make it over here I'll be a little upset.

I'll probably spend some more time with FE5 next, since I've only played it briefly, and it seems to be considered one of the best.

*I seem to have that problem a lot in FE9, where units have the larger movement ranges of the early games, but the maps aren't much larger than in the GBA games, with their smaller Move stats. As a result some maps feel cramped.
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  #43  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by McDohl View Post
Don't care.

What winds up happening is a battle restart every time, because you don't know if Random Nobody #7 is going to be worth saving in the future. It defeats the point of grunt characters.
But there is no "grunt characters" or "Random Nobody" in Fire Emblem--I think that's the whole point. Every unit is a distinguished character with their own backstory and personality, not some faceless Squire #3703 that you can just recruit anytime to make up the number. Which is why the perma-death, in my opinion, is very effective in establishing emotional attachment, increasing the level of challenge, and igniting a genuine sense of danger and risk. It also allows you to decide what kind of tactician you want to be: whether to always avoid casualty no matter what, or willing to sacrifice a few of your units forever in order to keep moving on quickly (Shadow Dragon did a fine job in illustrating the latter).

Perma-death is the best and defining feature in Fire Emblem that really set it apart from every other Strategy RPGs, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

All that said, it's totally cool if you can't accept that. Someone's winning formula can be other people's bullshit, and all that. I can certainly relate to hating the core mechanic of a game that others loved.
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  #44  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:16 PM
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Actually, Shadow Dragon introduced a bunch of faceless grunt characters.
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  #45  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:16 PM
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Ideally they should consider including an easy/updated mode in newer titles that nixes the perma-death - even if its a defining element of the series, I doubt anyone would mind having an option there of playing without it.
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  #46  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:26 PM
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Ideally they should consider including an easy/updated mode in newer titles that nixes the perma-death - even if its a defining element of the series, I doubt anyone would mind having an option there of playing without it.
Fire Emblem 12 totally does that. I know a lot of people aren't interested in it because it doesn't have supports and a barebones story (I'm pretty sure it'll be more fulfilling than the first remake just because this is a remake of the SNES game), but it actually has some pretty neat stuff, like being able to create your own character and play through the BS Satteleview chapters (which is why NoA isn't releasing the game here because we must never know what we missed ).
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  #47  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by PapillonReel View Post
Ideally they should consider including an easy/updated mode in newer titles that nixes the perma-death - even if its a defining element of the series, I doubt anyone would mind having an option there of playing without it.
I am pretty sure that second DS remake had that exact feature. You know, the DS game that Nintendo didn't bother to bring to North America? :[ But to be honest, I'm more concerned about what that means for the Fire Emblem franchise than I'm sad that I didn't get to play that particular title in English.

I want a new Fire Emblem game with an actual story and characters like burninnngggg
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  #48  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:30 PM
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Actually, Shadow Dragon introduced a bunch of faceless grunt characters.
They've got some humorous names in there, too, like Auffle and Rejek.
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  #49  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BlitzBlast View Post
Actually, Shadow Dragon introduced a bunch of faceless grunt characters.
They had faces, though! And names!

They just didn't have any lines at all.

Edit: Wait, no, I was thinking of something else. You're right.
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  #50  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:34 PM
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They've got some humorous names in there, too, like Auffle and Rejek.
I remember doing a playthrough where I was trying to get to all of the Gaiden chapters, so I was getting five or six recruits after every chapter, it was hilarious. One of more memorable was a wyvern knight who's named Wymp.

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I want a new Fire Emblem game with an actual story and characters like burninnngggg
FE12 has, at the very least, more story than FE11, at least when it's concerning your new main character.
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  #51  
Old 07-25-2011, 08:00 PM
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I always liked to imagine what it would be like in-game as the player shoots for the gaiden chapters. Marth is trying to save his kingdom, and a lot of people join his noble struggle. Unfortunately, most of these guys suck and just die in droves.
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  #52  
Old 07-25-2011, 08:15 PM
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Yeah, it's kind of awesome how Shadow Dragon compensate your loss of units by supplying those faceless grunts, while also mocking the players for sucking so much (assuming they don't do it on purpose for accessing the side-chapters). I also love how the Warp staff is so hilariously broken in that game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhroo View Post
I don't really mind us not getting the DS remake of FE3 since it seems like more of what we got in Shadow Dragon, but if they do this one and it doesn't make it over here I'll be a little upset.

I'll probably spend some more time with FE5 next, since I've only played it briefly, and it seems to be considered one of the best.
FE4 being remade would be great, I really wanted to see its mechanic and story within a much more refined interface.

As for FE5...it may be considered one of the best, but it is also soul-crushingly difficult. As in 'you can't even keep using the same units for every chapters due to something called fatigue meter' difficult. If perma-death is annoying, then how about THAT. I'm sure that it is still a great game though, just one that maybe only hardcore FE fans can really enjoy.
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  #53  
Old 07-25-2011, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BlitzBlast View Post
I always liked to imagine what it would be like in-game as the player shoots for the gaiden chapters. Marth is trying to save his kingdom, and a lot of people join his noble struggle. Unfortunately, most of these guys suck and just die in droves.
That game is simply ridiculous with the amount of units you can recruit. You get like 5 units per chapter at least, how on earth is anyone supposed to figure out which ones are any good without GameFAQs?

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FE4 being remade would be great, I really wanted to see its mechanic and story within a much more refined interface.
Make it happen, Nintendo.
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  #54  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:20 PM
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(Sorry for the double post, but that's how it goes when the thread hasn't been updated for weeks).

Least favorite part of FE- The arena grinding. I know it's "optional", but on the harder difficulty levels, it's kind of a neccesity (not like maxing out your levels, but to give all of your units a few extra levels to combat the overpowered enemies). What's obnoxious about it is having to wait until you get a low price, as those (the ones under 700) tend to be the battles that your characters can actually win (well, mercenaries and some myrmidons can beat the higher levels, but it's definetely a risk), and it's a pain in the ass. Bonus EXP in PoR was such a big improvement over this that it's not even funny.

Also, while it wasn't that big of a problem in the GBA games, because they're generally pretty easy (well, not 6, but I mean the ones that got localized in the US), arena grinding in FE11 is particularly obnoxious just because the guy keeps on giving you overpriced battles that your wimpy characters can't possibly win. Hell, I did a 700 price battle with my Myrmidon where I fought a Knight with 19 health who I'd do 1 damage to...yeah, real fair game.
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  #55  
Old 08-03-2011, 12:21 AM
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I think one of my favorite games of all time has to be Fire Emblem 7. The way that Fire Emblem does things right to me is that these fighters all have backstories, and it makes them real. This is what FE10 and FE11 do incorrectly, and part of why I don't like them as much. The supports are boring and do nothing to expand the character. I will sometimes use characters if I like their personality and backstory enough, without even considering their useability. This is a sign of good characterization in a game.

In other news, I finally borrowed Fire Emblem 7 from Nejt, so I'll be doing a HNM and a EHM runthrough soon. Suggestions on which units I should use for my HNM run?
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  #56  
Old 08-03-2011, 01:25 AM
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Least favorite part of FE- The arena grinding. I know it's "optional", but on the harder difficulty levels, it's kind of a neccesity (not like maxing out your levels, but to give all of your units a few extra levels to combat the overpowered enemies).
I'm trying to think of a Fire Emblem game where it's outright necessary to arena grind, but I'm coming up with nothing.
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  #57  
Old 08-03-2011, 02:13 AM
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I'm trying to think of a Fire Emblem game where it's outright necessary to arena grind, but I'm coming up with nothing.
I'm probably overreacting, but grinding definetely seems like a necessity on the harder difficulties of FE11 because all of your characters are so weak. Then again, I just found out about forging, so that may make it unneccessary?
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  #58  
Old 08-03-2011, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Umby View Post
In other news, I finally borrowed Fire Emblem 7 from Nejt, so I'll be doing a HNM and a EHM runthrough soon. Suggestions on which units I should use for my HNM run?
The better characters in the game tend to be Kent, Sain, Priscilla, Rath, Farina, Heath, Raven, Oswin, Dart, Rebecca, Nino, Lucius, Serra, and maybe Canas, but it really depends on how they develop as you level them up. Your best bet is to just play it by ear and go with whomever's pulling their weight.

Last edited by PapillonReel; 08-03-2011 at 03:22 AM.
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  #59  
Old 08-03-2011, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PapillonReel View Post
The better characters in the game tend to be Hector, Hector, Hector, Hector, Farina, Hector, Raven, Hector, Dart, Hector, Hector, Lucius, Hector, and maybe Canas, but it really depends on how they develop as you level them.
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  #60  
Old 08-03-2011, 03:31 AM
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I don't think Umby's planning on hacking the game, Nucular.
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