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  #31  
Old 05-18-2017, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
Incidentally, I've always felt the immediately available bonfire warps in later Souls games allowed them to get away with less complex level design.
Eh, I'd dispute this, considering Dark Souls 1 has arguably the worst moment to moment level design in the series. I see why people thought this in the aftermath of DS2 (whose world design bears the scars of a troubled development) but after Bloodborne and DS3 I don't think it holds a lot of water.


I like fast travel, even though I avoid using it a lot. It's more fun taking a horse out in BotW knowing that I can always warp away if I need to.
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  #32  
Old 05-18-2017, 06:28 AM
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I'll be honest: I loathe FFXV's car rides. You're basically stuck in a 2-4 minute loading screen where you can't like, walk away and go make a sandwich because the imperials might drop in on you, and the environments you're driving through aren't particularly interesting. Like, I can maybe kinda see how some people might get some novelty out of it, but for me a majority of the continent just looks like my commute to work.
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Yeah, I feel you on this one. They're pretty awful. Ironically, I only started to really dig the game once I got the slower, but more interactive travel method: Chocobos.
I can understand this, but the idea with the car is that you have a semi-automated means of travel that you can stop or change destinations with as necessary. It's not as great as the Chocobos are, but it's a method of travel that can let you take a break to an extent (if Ignis drives anyway), maybe stop now and then to check out something you saw.

And there is a "I just want to get right to this frickin' destination" option if you want to use it.

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I like fast travel, even though I avoid using it a lot. It's more fun taking a horse out in BotW knowing that I can always warp away if I need to.
As someone who will use but generally avoids fast travel, I liked Witcher 3's approach to it, where signposts are effectively teleporters. You have to go to a signpost to fast travel, but you can use it to return to any other signpost you've found. Having an unkillable horse you can summon as you please helps a lot, too.

One of my pet peeves with Skyrim was that there's no way to call your horse directly to your side save for fast travel (assuming it didn't go off and get killed), and horses are made of glass when it comes to fall damage. There is a conjuration spell you can acquire to summon a horse, but it's a good ways into the Dawnguard DLC quests.
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  #33  
Old 05-18-2017, 08:50 AM
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The horse summon spell in Skyrim is so good. Yes, it should be available early in the game.
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  #34  
Old 05-18-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Inactive Blacksmith View Post
If a game wants to respect a player's time, a fast travel system is a must. However a game should try to present a contiguous world by incentivizing alternative methods of traveling. For instance in FF15 you could fast travel, or you could:

1.) Drive by car automatically or manually. You could listen to old soundtracks, listen to interesting banter between the characters, or stare at the enjoyable scenery. If you saw something interesting you could jump out at any time. I felt this method of travel added to the sense of the world.
2.) Ride a chocobo because chocobos are awesome.
Yeah, I'm in the pro-FFXV car camp. Earlier I would always drive and check out stuff along the way; in late-game when I've pretty much explored everything on the map I *still* usually go by car (letting Ignis drive) simply because they included so much soundtrack that in over 100 hours of play I still haven't quite gotten through all of it, so I pop on the tunes and read twitter or something while the car goes. And of course if you don't want that, 90% of the time you can just actually fast-travel if you want anyway.

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Originally Posted by Pajaro Pete View Post
I'll be honest: I loathe FFXV's car rides. You're basically stuck in a 2-4 minute loading screen where you can't like, walk away and go make a sandwich because the imperials might drop in on you, and the environments you're driving through aren't particularly interesting.
This seems weird to me, since in the aforementioned many many hours of car travel I think I've had imperials unexpectedly block my car maybe once outside of scripted events? And of course once you get the headlights upgrade monsters after dark aren't a problem either.
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  #35  
Old 05-18-2017, 10:00 AM
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FF15 car rides would have been super annoying to me without the ability to listen to FF OSTs, which made it super awesome instead. In some alternate universe where FF15 is the first FF, and there are no OSTs because the previous games don't exist, there is an alternate four-so who chuckles to himself at the initial car ride in semi-amusement before not playing it ever again.
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  #36  
Old 05-18-2017, 10:06 AM
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This is interesting - I've been playing Atelier Firis lately and it has a relatively odd fast travel system.

Basically the world of Atelier Firis is composed of some quite large region maps. Within these regions are a few landmark points and campfires that you can fast travel to from the region map. The thing is that, for most of the game, you can only fast travel to those points from within that specific region. If you want to travel to a different region you have to walk there, and it's rare that a fast travel point is near the region transitions, so you'll still have to do a fair bit of walking to do your inter-region travel.

While this may initially seem like a technical limitation of the game, it really isn't - late in the post-game you can develop an item that allows you to fast travel to a point in any region.

It should be noted that time still passes when fast travelling and, as happens a lot in Atelier games, you do have some time limits to worry about - so even if it saves the player time, it can eat up in-game time with no gains besides getting to a destination somewhat faster.

So it's an interesting take on a fast travel system - it's certainly not as integrated as FFXV's car, but it's also not as all powerful as the fast travel in Skyrim or Breath of the Wild.
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  #37  
Old 05-18-2017, 10:45 AM
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I think there's no problem with fast travel systems, especially considering much earlier versions of them like warp whistles or DQ's Return/Zoom spell. I think the problem is it feels like every single console game is trying to offer a massive world without really designing a good one. Fast travel is one of the boxes you tick when you're making another game like that.

But even then, I think the problem is that game design's costs, whether it's human or financial, are too great for developers to keep pushing out all these map games. Or at least the ones that seem to come out yearly.

I do think, in general, fast travel systems work better when you have a game where your fast travel is unlocked by visiting those areas first, so you at least get a sense of the location. When it comes to games, I like exploring (in general, I like exploring, but there isn't much of that left to do on our planet unless you're a billionaire) so that factors into my opinion a lot.
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  #38  
Old 05-18-2017, 11:41 PM
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I have fairly limited experience with open-world games compared to some posters here, but my thoughts:

I think Breath of the Wild does warping well, but this is also because I think the Shrines are well placed and are the only things you can travel to (outside of towers). I think warping in mid-battle probably should have been axed though.

The contrast is, probably, Skyrim. It offers a lot more areas that are independent from the overworld than Zelda does, but the travel can feel diminished because each of these caves, groves, ponds, cabins, etc., is warpable once you've discovered it. I'm not sure what I would have preferred as fast travel, but I think it would have been something close to Morrowind -- "public transportation" from major city centres, or even expand the public transport to smaller hamlets and even roadside kiosks (a la stables in BotW). It's odd that they include public transport and quick travel in the game, though public transport helps out early on when you haven't discovered the major cities yet. When I play Skyrim, I tend to police myself by limiting quick travel to the wagons.

I'm not necessarily a fan of warping in Dark Souls games. I liked it as a mid-game reward in DS1, but this has a lot to do to with that game's impeccable world interconnectivity too. DS2 felt checkpoint-y and haphazard. Demon's Souls did the checkpoints too, but those were rewards for milestones in beating bosses rather than just... placing a checkpoint every 15 minutes. I thought Bloodborne did them pretty well since each area was mostly based around using a single checkpoint that connects to increasing numbers of clever shortcuts. Although I think insta-warping gutted the horror of being stuck early on in Yahar'gul, though maybe that's more a criticism of the placement of the warp point in the jail rather than the concept of warping at all. DS3 had a lot of bonfires, but I felt most of those bonfires had a lot of unique revisitable content around them. Nothing will ever really beat DS1 for me since I enjoy well designed backtracking, but I do sort of see bonfire warps in these games as a necessary evil that needs to be really carefully implemented.

On the other hand, I have no problem with insta-travel in games that are a bit more fast and loose with traversal -- games that are a bit lighter on sheer content than Skyrim and have tremendously agile characters -- like the Batmans or Just Cause. Aside from the sheer spectacle those games don't exactly have the grounded detail that Skyrim does, so being able to get around quickly for some arcade-y fun is a good thing and actually in-character.
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  #39  
Old 05-20-2017, 10:10 PM
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Thanks a lot for everyone's responses. While I do think quick-travel is a necessity for most open-world games nowadays, I'm a bit of the opinion that a few others have stated - I'd like to see more open-world games without fast travel. They could just have more smaller and more interesting "connecting pathways".

For example, I imagine a game that, say, takes place on just a few city blocks, but with each building fully or partially realized (for imagination purposes, let's say Times Square). I think it could still feel like a "full" open-world game, but in a different way. The smaller area available limits your movement options (so cars, planes, etc. wouldn't really work), but the smaller world can feel more "dense" and "alive" - really packed with details. Also, because the world is smaller, you have more options available for staged locations and viewpoints. For example, you could have way better crowd simulations if you know where the player can and can't be / see.

I guess survival horror titles are kind of the last genre to have an open world that takes place in relatively "small" locations that are also fully realized?
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  #40  
Old 05-20-2017, 11:34 PM
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I'm pro FFXV car rides. I found driving from A to B with the FF1 remake OST on to be incredibly relaxing. I tend to like breaks in game action. (I like the MGS4 cut scenes.) And I think Square put so much effort into the design of the world that I enjoyed just looking at the world while driving.

Sure by the end of the game If I want to go from West of the continent to the East, I would fast travel. But for medium and short distances I would almost always drive.
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  #41  
Old 05-21-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SolarLune View Post
For example, I imagine a game that, say, takes place on just a few city blocks, but with each building fully or partially realized (for imagination purposes, let's say Times Square). I think it could still feel like a "full" open-world game, but in a different way. The smaller area available limits your movement options (so cars, planes, etc. wouldn't really work), but the smaller world can feel more "dense" and "alive" - really packed with details.
It occurs to me that in a situation like that, exploring big, densely-detailed buildings, something like a zip-line strung between the 20th floors of adjacent structures could be an unlockable "fast travel" route to previous locations. Or like a glider between rooftops or something.

Though I guess that's also the sort of thing we'd just call a "shortcut" in an action game or metroidvania, like unlocking a door from the far side.
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  #42  
Old 05-21-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SolarLune View Post
For example, I imagine a game that, say, takes place on just a few city blocks, but with each building fully or partially realized (for imagination purposes, let's say Times Square). I think it could still feel like a "full" open-world game, but in a different way. The smaller area available limits your movement options (so cars, planes, etc. wouldn't really work), but the smaller world can feel more "dense" and "alive" - really packed with details. Also, because the world is smaller, you have more options available for staged locations and viewpoints. For example, you could have way better crowd simulations if you know where the player can and can't be / see.
So basically you want to play a Yakuza game?
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  #43  
Old 05-21-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SolarLune View Post
Thanks a lot for everyone's responses. While I do think quick-travel is a necessity for most open-world games nowadays, I'm a bit of the opinion that a few others have stated - I'd like to see more open-world games without fast travel. They could just have more smaller and more interesting "connecting pathways".

For example, I imagine a game that, say, takes place on just a few city blocks, but with each building fully or partially realized (for imagination purposes, let's say Times Square). I think it could still feel like a "full" open-world game, but in a different way. The smaller area available limits your movement options (so cars, planes, etc. wouldn't really work), but the smaller world can feel more "dense" and "alive" - really packed with details. Also, because the world is smaller, you have more options available for staged locations and viewpoints. For example, you could have way better crowd simulations if you know where the player can and can't be / see.

I guess survival horror titles are kind of the last genre to have an open world that takes place in relatively "small" locations that are also fully realized?
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided has a remarkably dense yet compact hub world in which most of the game takes place. It's probably about six or seven full blocks with four subways stops connecting them for easy travel. Occasionally you're sent to setpiece missions apart from the hub, but for the most part you're exploring this little chunk of Prague very, very thoroughly through main missions and about a dozen meaty and very high quality side quests. It's all pretty much open too, so for example you can try your hand at cleaning out the heavily guarded bank as soon as you get control of your character... long before the game even sends you there.

I'm on my third runthrough of the game and I'm literally still discovering new paths, backrooms, and apartments I didn't notice before.

Here's the Boss Keys guy, Mark Brown, gushing over it:

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  #44  
Old 05-21-2017, 10:55 AM
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Personally, I'd like to see a comeback of the airship.
Oh hell yes.

Similarly, World of Warcraft. Navigating got sooooo much better once you get an epic flying mount and could soar above the landscape on your own. There were always flight paths and ships/airships which I also liked, but that feeling of fast, free flight was good.

Fast travel is absolutely necessary in a big game, I believe, but it doesn't need to be instant travel. What Patrick mentioned about turning of fast-travel but making your horse much faster made a lightbulb go off above my head too. And it seems like others have said much the same.

But then you get a game like Dark Souls and yeah, bonfire teleportation is I think necessary. DS1 replays drive me nuts before I get the lordvessel. But it's a tricky balance. The first bit of the game is fantastic, with the brilliant interconnectedness of the world in Firelink/Burg/Parish/Darkroot/Drakes, and you don't really feel the need for it. But then you get to the depths and blighttown and it feels like it's pushing it. Especially with like the great tree and demon ruins being partially open and the option to stray too far...

I was about to start talking about how Super Metroid had a really good balance with its well-placed teleporter rooms but... did super metroid actually have teleporter rooms? I can't remember. If it didn't that's a huge testament to how well it covered exploration and map design, but then again it's Super Metroid, kinda THE gold standard of those things, so.
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  #45  
Old 05-21-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul le Fou View Post
I was about to start talking about how Super Metroid had a really good balance with its well-placed teleporter rooms but... did super metroid actually have teleporter rooms? I can't remember. If it didn't that's a huge testament to how well it covered exploration and map design, but then again it's Super Metroid, kinda THE gold standard of those things, so.
Nope, it never did. The nice thing about Super Metroid is all the hidden connections you can find between big parts of areas, though I think it's actually less connected than Fusion or Zero Mission, where you can skip elevators.
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  #46  
Old 05-21-2017, 03:02 PM
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It is kind of frustrating how FFXV technically has an airship (in endgame/postgame anyway) but then makes it so finicky to use that it hardly seems worthwhile. I mean yeah, figuring out how to land a hastily-converted luxury car on the highway is an interesting and I suppose semi-realistic challenge, but I feel like once you pull it off once or twice (or maybe crash a dozen times) they should really open some sidequest ending in an installable equipment piece that can auto-land on the nearest road. Then I'd actually use the dang thing instead of just having Iggy drive back and forth while I catch up on twitter and listen to the soundtrack.
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  #47  
Old 05-21-2017, 03:07 PM
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I think the key is to fast travel is contextualizing it. For instance, Dragon Quest functionally has instantaneous fast travel by way of Zoom/Return; but by making it a character's spell (complete with MP cost) and giving it an accompanying animation, it feels like an actual part of the world and game instead of a purely QOL addition.
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  #48  
Old 05-21-2017, 05:02 PM
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Make the world too big and even flying won't get you there fast enough; you need warping.
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  #49  
Old 05-22-2017, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul le Fou View Post
I was about to start talking about how Super Metroid had a really good balance with its well-placed teleporter rooms but... did super metroid actually have teleporter rooms? I can't remember. If it didn't that's a huge testament to how well it covered exploration and map design, but then again it's Super Metroid, kinda THE gold standard of those things, so.
Super Metroid is actually a pretty small game when all is said and done. An experienced player can get to any point on the map in just a few minutes. I've always thought the warp rooms in Igavanias were a tacit admission that the maps might be a bit Too Damn Big.
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Ludendorkk View Post
Super Metroid is actually a pretty small game when all is said and done. An experienced player can get to any point on the map in just a few minutes. I've always thought the warp rooms in Igavanias were a tacit admission that the maps might be a bit Too Damn Big.
As someone who is a known first time play Super Metroid Disliker, it takes fucking forever to get anywhere to check out the millions of things you might have missed in SM. Yet another reason why I think SM is a way better speedrun game than first time game.
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  #51  
Old 05-22-2017, 06:56 AM
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I'm playing Darksiders right now and it handles fast travel in an interesting way. You step through a portal, select your destination on the map, but then you go to a kind of sub-space that you literally have to walk through to get to the portal the actually takes you to your destination.

Not sure if the sub-space just obfuscates loading or if someone just thought it was a neat idea - it has a lore basis in the game - but it makes fast travel feel more significant than a straight teleport since you have to work for it. I would have preferred a straight teleport - my patience is in increasingly limited supply, the older I get - but I can appreciate what they're doing here.
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  #52  
Old 05-22-2017, 09:52 AM
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So basically you want to play a Yakuza game?
Maybe so, yeah - never played one before.

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Originally Posted by Kirin View Post
It occurs to me that in a situation like that, exploring big, densely-detailed buildings, something like a zip-line strung between the 20th floors of adjacent structures could be an unlockable "fast travel" route to previous locations. Or like a glider between rooftops or something.
Yeah, like, even ordinary windows and a mattress outside or a fire escape can become a fast travel route. Ordinary clotheslines, too, could be more "natural" routes. Think about how fun something like being chased or chasing someone could be when it's not in a car blazing around city streets, but through tight corridors and back alleyways, basement tunnels, sky bridges, and lobbies of hotels and office buildings.

Basically, where's 16 Blocks: The Game?

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Originally Posted by boyonion View Post
Here's the Boss Keys guy, Mark Brown, gushing over it:
OK, yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I was thinking about. Thanks for the link! I actually am already subscribed to Boss Keys, and just haven't been checking out their vids - gotta remedy that sometime, haha.
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  #53  
Old 05-22-2017, 10:16 AM
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Yakuza takes place on a relatively small scale but you still can't enter a majority of the buildings you see.
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  #54  
Old 05-22-2017, 10:28 AM
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Yakuza takes place on a relatively small scale but you still can't enter a majority of the buildings you see.
That true, and density varies depending on the game and how many neighbourhoods the game features - Yakuza 4, which has a laser focus on Kamurocho is incredibly dense and has quite a large amount of places you can enter and explore. Yakuza 5, which features pretty much every neighbourhood from the series, is spread pretty thin by comparison. Yakuza 0, which has two major neighbourhoods, falls somewhere between the two.
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Old 05-22-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by four-so View Post
I'm playing Darksiders right now and it handles fast travel in an interesting way. You step through a portal, select your destination on the map, but then you go to a kind of sub-space that you literally have to walk through to get to the portal the actually takes you to your destination.

Not sure if the sub-space just obfuscates loading or if someone just thought it was a neat idea - it has a lore basis in the game - but it makes fast travel feel more significant than a straight teleport since you have to work for it. I would have preferred a straight teleport - my patience is in increasingly limited supply, the older I get - but I can appreciate what they're doing here.
I haven't played Darksiders, but given that you say you have to explicitly select your final destination beforehand I'd bet good money that yeah, it's primarily a trick to obscure loading time. Neat idea for that, though.
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  #56  
Old 05-23-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul le Fou View Post
Fast travel is absolutely necessary in a big game, I believe, but it doesn't need to be instant travel.
Every game needs boar drifting. There, I just fixed video games!
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  #57  
Old 05-24-2017, 07:09 AM
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Dying Light doesn't have fast travel. At first it annoyed me but after a while I didn't mind, because traversal is so fun in that game, and the maps aren't prohibitively huge.

If it were the size of Just Cause 3 and I couldn't warp or fast travel then it'd suck.
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