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  #61  
Old 12-30-2011, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Torgo View Post
Haters gonna hate. I like Episode I & II and I don't care who knows it. I also enjoyed Shadows of the Empire (the game) and most everything I've read of the Expanded Universe (which is probably only a tenth of what's out there but still). Star Wars is awesome.

Revenge of the Sith is so awful though. I can square with Jar Jar Binks, Ewoks, and all that goofy nonsense that Lucas is always so bent on. I can forgive whiny kid Anakin and the glaring plot hole of him building C-3P0. Revenge of the Sith, however... it has its moments in the actiony bits, to be sure, but the acting in it is sooo baaaaad. I mean, I'll admit that Attack of the Clones had some quality ham in there, and I might go so far as to say that if you're expecting high storytelling out of Star Wars you're Doing It Wrong, but Sith is absolutely cringe-worthy from beginning to end.
So basically stupid crap is totally forgivable as long as it isn't grimdark?

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Originally Posted by Olli T View Post
Man, inconsistencies in Star Wars canon are like hints of homoeroticism in 80s action movies. Apologists will try to explain them away, but wishing don't make it so.
The difference is that 80s action movie homoeroticism is a side product of huge dudes doing manly stuff together, whereas inconsistencies in the Star Wars canon are a direct result of not giving a shit

Not that keeping a consistent backstory is the worst of those movies sins.
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  #62  
Old 12-30-2011, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by onimaruxlr View Post
So basically stupid crap is totally forgivable as long as it isn't grimdark?
Not really. Grimdark has little do with the fact that Episode III is so terribly written and performed that it makes Episode II seem like graceful poetry.
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  #63  
Old 12-30-2011, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Parish View Post
What? No, the revamped music was a billion times better than YUB NUB. One of the few genuine improvements in the Special Editions. Who says otherwise, and why are they allowed to mingle within polite society?
Is it the changed up ewok music people gripe about? I honestly don't recall how the new version even goes. I've seen the SE version of Jedi exactly once, and my eyes and ears pretty much quit in protest at the horrible nightmare cartoony music number they pasted over Jabba's palace.

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Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
Well, they were all integrated into the suit, and the suit's still there, so yeah? All those mechanical limbs and replacement organs rattling around on the shuttle trip down to Endor must have been distracting.

Actually, you know, I'm getting this from one of the books where Luke reminisces about setting the empty armor on fire, I think. Not sure which one. Maybe one of Zahn's initial trilogy? I figured it fit, because until the prequel trilogy EU stuff went into how you had to work really hard to prepare yourself for manifesting from beyond death, it simply seemed like light-side folks vanished to become one with the Force, and dark-side dudes like the Emperor blew up. And since Vader didn't blow up ...
I distinctly recall the Zahn books establishing that, basically, light side=force ghost, dark side=haunted area, like the place on Dagobah where Luke has his whole Freudian freak out. Which is kind of a neat take on things. If you remain a chilled out hippie, you can give people advice from the aftermath. If you become an evil psycho, you leave behind a supernatural force of terror and unease to plague all the jerks who presumably killed you.
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  #64  
Old 12-30-2011, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Googleshng View Post
I distinctly recall the Zahn books establishing that, basically, light side=force ghost, dark side=haunted area, like the place on Dagobah where Luke has his whole Freudian freak out. Which is kind of a neat take on things. If you remain a chilled out hippie, you can give people advice from the aftermath. If you become an evil psycho, you leave behind a supernatural force of terror and unease to plague all the jerks who presumably killed you.
The dark side=haunted area bit is more or less a Zahn innovation as far as I know, and it's a pretty cool one because it set up the idea that the Sith were all profoundly evil wizards and sorcerers, and their handiwork was universally a series of horrible, horrible things.
The Sith Temple in Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is probably the best example. That place is probably the most atmospheric set of levels in the entire series because it really drives home the idea more than anything else.
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  #65  
Old 12-30-2011, 04:01 PM
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That's right! And if I remember correctly, the death of the Emperor and the second Death Star created this Dark Side psychic taint that continued to orbit Endor — Luke blacked out or something when he flew into it.

Yeah, neat idea.
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  #66  
Old 12-30-2011, 05:03 PM
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Yub Yub was certainly an odd note to go out on, and I don't remember the replacement music, but I do remember being annoyed by the new scenes at the end of Jedi - Computer-generated people everywhere being overjoyed by the death of the Emperor ten minutes after it happened, and having a big party. Of course, I was probably inclined to be annoyed by any new scene by that point.

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"'A certain point of view'?"

"Yes. And if he ever tells you that I cut off his arms and legs and left him to burn to death in unspeakable agony at the shores of a river of lava, well, that's just HIS point of view. "
By the time we finally got to C3PO's memory wipe, I could not have been rolling my eyes any harder. Because it was a foregone conclusion that it was going to happen, but as usual with Lucas it had to be an entire scene of people blandly saying "Yup, guess we better erase this droid's memory," complete with R2-D2 practically winking at the camera.

Oh, R2. You love watching your humorously uptight friend being dragged away to have his brain violated, don't you?
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  #67  
Old 12-30-2011, 05:06 PM
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Computer-generated people everywhere being overjoyed by the death of the Emperor ten minutes after it happened, and having a big party.
I suppose I never figured the reactions shown were intended to be happening right then.
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  #68  
Old 12-30-2011, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
I suppose I never figured the reactions shown were intended to be happening right then.
Yeah, I assumed it happened a few months later, when Mon Mothma spoke from the flight deck of a captured Star Destroyer with a MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner behind her.

As for music, the Ewok revised song is mellow and inoffensive. The new music in Jabba's palace is a wretched crime against the human ear. On a related note, it's always seemed kind of weird that Lucas didn't digitally fix Oola popping out of her dancing outfit (which is one of the series' "now I can't unsee it" things, like the Stormtrooper smacking his head on the door).
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  #69  
Old 12-30-2011, 06:31 PM
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I just assumed that the extinction of one so rich in the Dark Side sent out a wave of universal Mentos Freshness and Immediate Understanding. Luke mischievously holds up the mint packet, the galaxy indulgingly laughs and nods.
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  #70  
Old 12-30-2011, 06:54 PM
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Somewhere in the original Return of the Jedi novel, it's implied that the Emperor's Force influence is what animates the Imperial troops, and the moment he dies, they start to snap out of it and that's why they do things like get beaten by teddy bears and crash into the Death Star.
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  #71  
Old 12-30-2011, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dart Zaidyer View Post
Somewhere in the original Return of the Jedi novel, it's implied that the Emperor's Force influence is what animates the Imperial troops, and the moment he dies, they start to snap out of it and that's why they do things like get beaten by teddy bears and crash into the Death Star.
I think that was the Zahn books, again.
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  #72  
Old 12-30-2011, 07:41 PM
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Hasn't it been pretty firmly established that from original trilogy on, with exceptions, Imperial Stormtroopers aren't clones any more?
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  #73  
Old 12-30-2011, 08:08 PM
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THOUGHT

Wouldn't it have been cool if Dooku wasn't a Sith but what he says to ObiWan was actually true?
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  #74  
Old 12-30-2011, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rosencrantz View Post
II also liked the part in Revenge of the Sith where Palpatine implies that Darth Plagueis controlled midichlorians to create Anakin. I mean, I'd rather the whole "virgin birth" thing not be in the movies at all, but I thought it was better than just leaving it as The Force Did It.
Vader died for our sins.

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Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
Yub Yub was certainly an odd note to go out on, and I don't remember the replacement music, but I do remember being annoyed by the new scenes at the end of Jedi - Computer-generated people everywhere being overjoyed by the death of the Emperor ten minutes after it happened, and having a big party.
That annoyed me too. It was like "What? The Emperor's dead?! Alright! Whooo!!!! Party around the universe!"

It was like the end of some screwball comedy from the 80's. I'm surprised they didn't do the freeze-frame and provide a "What Happened Next? / Where Are They Now?" caption thing during those scenes. I thought Any Way You Want It by Journey was going to start playing any minute.
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  #75  
Old 12-30-2011, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by chud_666 View Post
THOUGHT

Wouldn't it have been cool if Dooku wasn't a Sith but what he says to ObiWan was actually true?
Well... strictly speaking, what Count Dooku said was true. If I recall correctly, his whole spiel was that the Republic was being run, or at least manipulated, by the Sith.

The only explanation that can possibly be had was that he never expected Obi-Wan to take him up on his offer. Or he wanted to get the one-up on Sidious and take power for himself.

I get what you're asking though: What if he (thought he) was on the up and up about the offer? I rather like the idea, but it all kind of comes out of the wash since Christopher Lee dies like ten minutes into Episode III. I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about that one, other then "Oh, well that's rather anticlimactic."

For all Dooku adds to Episode II & III, they might as well have let Darth Maul live and have a rivalry build between him and Anakin. Or maybe a plot thread where Obi-Wan is struggling with an inner desire for vengeance. At the very least we would've gotten a couple awesome lightsaber fights out of it.
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  #76  
Old 12-30-2011, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Torgo View Post
Hasn't it been pretty firmly established that from original trilogy on, with exceptions, Imperial Stormtroopers aren't clones any more?
In the commentary for Attack of the Clones, Lucas says that they added in the part where Jango Fett bumps his head on the closing door of his ship as an in-joke, explaining how his clones inherited their clumsiness regarding doors. Seriously!
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  #77  
Old 12-30-2011, 09:40 PM
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That's.. That's pretty funny actually.
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  #78  
Old 12-30-2011, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rosencrantz View Post
In the commentary for Attack of the Clones, Lucas says that they added in the part where Jango Fett bumps his head on the closing door of his ship as an in-joke, explaining how his clones inherited their clumsiness regarding doors. Seriously!
How anti-cute.
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  #79  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:05 AM
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Fortuitous timing on this thread!

So my friend and I are watching all 6 movies starting from The Phantom Menace since we've been playing TOR and want to really nerd it up by having Star Wars on every available screen, tonight we got through Episodes 1 & 2. Holy shit these are bad movies you guys seriously. Young Anakin makes me want to punch a child, podracing is stupid, Christian Haydenson is a fucking abysmal actor and seriously Jar-Jar Binks is one of the worst characters I've seen in a legitimate attempt at writing. Its like these movies were created by someone who had zero grasp on what made Star Wars cool in the first place. >=\

In other shocking new developments fire's hot, sky's blue, breathing is good for living.
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  #80  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Tefari View Post
Christian Haydenson is a fucking abysmal actor
I don't know that that's necessarily fair. If the Star Wars prequels were the only exposure I'd ever had to Natalie Portman and Ewan McGregor, I'd think they were terrible actors too. An actor can only do so much with the writing and direction he's given.
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  #81  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:19 AM
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yes, we're ignoring hayden christensen's other sterling contributions like
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  #82  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:21 AM
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(actually "shattered glass" owns but mostly for chloe sevigny and peter sarsgaard)

(also wikipedia says that he was in the virgin suicides? whaaaaaaaat)
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  #83  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:49 AM
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So remind me. Everyone alreay saw The Vader Sessions like 5 years ago, right?
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  #84  
Old 12-31-2011, 02:03 AM
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No, but thank you for linking it!
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  #85  
Old 12-31-2011, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rosencrantz View Post
In the commentary for Attack of the Clones, Lucas says that they added in the part where Jango Fett bumps his head on the closing door of his ship as an in-joke, explaining how his clones inherited their clumsiness regarding doors. Seriously!
This is, I think, what drives me the most nuts about Star Wars. It seems like everything has to be "explained", and it really sucks all the joy out of the setting.
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  #86  
Old 12-31-2011, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tefari View Post
Its like these movies were created by someone who had zero grasp on what made Star Wars cool in the first place.
This is why the defining moment in the prequels for me is when Amidala makes a big deal of thanking R2-D2 in front of everyone. Droids are a slave race. They don't get medals, or even a paycheck. They don't even get a day off for Robanukah. The only person who treats them like sentient beings is Luke, and that's one of the ways we know he's a good person. If Lucas wanted to do this with Amidala, it should have been a quiet scene away from the public view, so her aides wouldn't mutter to themselves, "There she goes thanking a toaster for providing her with heated bread again."
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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
This is, I think, what drives me the most nuts about Star Wars. It seems like everything has to be "explained", and it really sucks all the joy out of the setting.
Absolutely. A healthy dose of hints and mysteries makes a fictional world seem bigger than reader or author could ever imagine. Heavy-handed explanations cut off those possibilities and shrink the world down to just what's on the page. George Lucas's explanations make his cast of characters look like one big incestuous family.
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  #87  
Old 12-31-2011, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Parish View Post
As for music, the Ewok revised song is mellow and inoffensive. The new music in Jabba's palace is a wretched crime against the human ear.
I certainly agree about the Jabba's palace tunes. Lapti Nek is a bona fide classic and should never have been replaced. My problem with the new Ewok celebration song is that it reminds me of the Native American panpipe dudes you can hear playing outside of malls.

Pleasant enough, but the original Ewok celebration song was goofy as hell, just like Ewoks, so I thought it was more fitting.

Speaking of Ewoks, the worst part about the They Were Supposed To Be Wookiees thing is that as far as I can tell Lucas tried to make reparations for that in Episode III, but goddamn, he biffed it SO HARD.
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  #88  
Old 12-31-2011, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
A healthy dose of hints and mysteries makes a fictional world seem bigger than reader or author could ever imagine. Heavy-handed explanations cut off those possibilities and shrink the world down to just what's on the page. George Lucas's explanations make his cast of characters look like one big incestuous family.
In that regard, I think the films could have stood to stay off Tatooine, leave Artoo and Threepio out, not bother with Jango Fett at all, and don't make Yoda fight at all.

That last item probably doesn't fit in the list, but it still bothers me to no end. The Yoda we saw in Empire was a very zen character. He didn't train Luke to fight because he had a oneness with the force that was so great that he was beyond conflict. Luke's line about seeking a "great warrior" was due to his own misconceptions of what a Jedi was.
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  #89  
Old 12-31-2011, 10:29 AM
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I'm looking forward to the theatrical re-releases, not because I want to see them again or because I condone 3D conversion, but because they might convince a few moviegoers that reruns are more fun to watch than remakes (probably only a few since these movies have been so edited over the years that they almost are remakes).

If the studios must keep putting safe, familiar movies in theaters, I want those safe, familiar movies to be simple re-releases so that Hollywood can spend the majority of its time and money making more original movies. Or else Hollywood should just disband and let our theaters get flooded with low-cost movies from India.
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  #90  
Old 12-31-2011, 12:25 PM
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That last item probably doesn't fit in the list, but it still bothers me to no end. The Yoda we saw in Empire was a very zen character. He didn't train Luke to fight because he had a oneness with the force that was so great that he was beyond conflict. Luke's line about seeking a "great warrior" was due to his own misconceptions of what a Jedi was.
Absolutely agreed. At the time, I thought it was awesome, a high point in a sucky movie. With almost a decade of distance - about the same span since the release of Jedi, incidentally, when I noticed Star Wars at age 10 - I can see that it's just a persistent peak of suck. It's even worse as Yoda is the most showboaty attention hog.
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