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  #61  
Old 12-18-2016, 04:39 PM
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I was bracing myself for the Vader wordplay, since several posters on other forums were talking up how cheesy it was. When I actually got to the scene in question, it didn't register with me at all, since it seemed fairly innocuous and in-character. No, I thought to myself, the groan-worthy pun must surely be coming later, perhaps during Vader's big whoop-ass scene?

To my disappointment, there were no one-liners at all in that scene. Way to drop the ball, big-shot Hollywood guys. In the future, feel free to use any one of these I came up with for future Vader scenes:

"Don't FORCE me to get rough with you."

"Bringing a blaster to a lighstaber fight? Wookie mistake."

<Force floats a rebel commander in the air> "I feel like your battle plan was a bit light on the details."

If more are needed, please see my agent.
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  #62  
Old 12-18-2016, 05:52 PM
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The plot idea that the Death Star's weakness was introduced by a deliberate and secret act of sabotage is something I was a bit worried about, but it turned out well. It adds to rather than replaces the Imperial hubris of A New Hope - not only do they arrogantly assume that the literal Imperial machine on which they stand is all-powerful, they also arrogantly assume that the mechanism of Imperial rule has produced a trustworthy subject.
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  #63  
Old 12-18-2016, 06:05 PM
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And highlights Krennic's personal hubris. "Well Galen I killed your wife and drove off your daughter to an unknown fate, of course you are my loyal doombase designer.'

Krennic was not a strong villain, and I kinda like that. He embodies the petty banality-of-evil everyday Imperial officer, the ambitious guy who will fuck over anyone for a chance to get ahead, not double check the designs, and literally doom the Empire to its ultimate defeat in the end. But never know it, of course, since he's vaporized by his own precious baby after a real villain casually relieves him of it. Krennic spends the entire movie after Jedha trying to maneuver his way into some kind of position of advantage and fails completely.

(Also, while there were certainly a couple spots where Peter CGushing was a bit too uncanny valley, for the most part I found the effect convincing. I thought might have been full makeup initially. Where it fell down a bit for me was the voice, which wasn't quite on.)

And yeah, also thought Jyn's change of heart wasn't unduly abrupt.
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  #64  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:14 PM
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Apparently, there's at least three references to Rebels in R1:
  • During the post-Council rallying of Rogue One, the PSA at the Yavin base calls for General Syndulla, which might mean Hera made it to the top of the ranks by the time of ANH!
  • People claim the Ghost was also seen at the Yavin base. More importantly, there IS trailer footage showing the Ghost, or a ship very much like it, jumping in with the rest of the Rebel fleet at Scarif. I'll have to watch Vader's entrance next time to see if that ship makes it out or smashes into the Destroyer.
  • I had forgotten all about them, but Hammerhead cruisers were THE reason Leia got involved with the Lothal group.
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  #65  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
And highlights Krennic's personal hubris. "Well Galen I killed your wife and drove off your daughter to an unknown fate, of course you are my loyal doombase designer.'

Krennic was not a strong villain, and I kinda like that. He embodies the petty banality-of-evil everyday Imperial officer, the ambitious guy who will fuck over anyone for a chance to get ahead, not double check the designs, and literally doom the Empire to its ultimate defeat in the end. But never know it, of course, since he's vaporized by his own precious baby after a real villain casually relieves him of it. Krennic spends the entire movie after Jedha trying to maneuver his way into some kind of position of advantage and fails completely.
I still love that Krennic is a Director - it satisfies on so many levels. He's the bureaucrat who can't imagine anything better than having the big desk with his shiny nameplate on it, blind to the disregard the greater institution has for his ambitions (or even his humanity.) But he's also a creator, the man behind the camera, who is fighting to keep outside reality from impacting the purity of his vision and failing every step of the way. Gareth Edwards and Gary Whitta (the fuckin PC GAMER guy wrote Rogue One, dear God) really took the piss out of themselves with Krennic and that's cool.

e: BTW, were you watching the lenses? Once again, looking isn't seeing.
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  #66  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:24 PM
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Yep, all of that.

Another thing: Tarkin's complete disregard for Imperial lives. That second DS blast wave would kill pretty much all Imperials in tsunami distance, and there were a lot of them. All because he wanted to destroy the plans before the Rebels got them, if they hadn't yet. He didn't know either way, and didn't care. The upper ranks of the Empire don't feel any loyalty or obligation, even to their own troops, even when they've won the battle as it stands.

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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
e: BTW, were you watching the lenses? Once again, looking isn't seeing.
I don't follow, or is this not to me?
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  #67  
Old 12-18-2016, 08:19 PM
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I came up with a sentence for why I liked this movie so much: there is no Hero's Journey when you're fighting a brutal unstoppable empire, because everyone dies.
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  #68  
Old 12-18-2016, 08:42 PM
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I liked it, it didn't feel as fanservicey as TFA even though there were as many nods to the original trilogy (I especially liked the part where Jyn is hanging from the data storage thing and I'm pretty sure it's framed like Luke hanging from the pillar in ESB).

Also, I went to see this with my oldest son who is convinced K2-SO downloaded himself into that other Empire droid and made it out somehow.
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  #69  
Old 12-18-2016, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
I liked it, it didn't feel as fanservicey as TFA even though there were as many nods to the original trilogy (I especially liked the part where Jyn is hanging from the data storage thing and I'm pretty sure it's framed like Luke hanging from the pillar in ESB).
That part reminded me a lot of Dark Forces mission 4, where there's this central pillar that you have to keep moving a bridge around to access different parts of it.
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  #70  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by four-so View Post
I did like the seemingly throwaway line from Cassian that Chirrut was one of the "guardians of the Whills". The Journal of the Whills is always floating at the periphery and I'm glad they nodded toward it.
That entire scene was full of fun proto-Star Wars ephemera: The Force of Others, the Whills, the Kyber Crystals. All they needed was to mention someone being Jedi-Bendu or wielding powers of the Bogan and they'd have pretty much have it all wrapped up. I like that they're dredging concepts from Lucas's discarded scripts the same way they're dredging designs from McQuarrie's discarded sketches... it creates a sensation that's at once alien yet familiar.
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  #71  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
I don't follow, or is this not to me?
The general "you". People in Star Wars are never more blind than when they're looking through a lens. I believe Cressian understands his moral blindness when he's looking through his sniper scope - his decision not to pull the trigger is the turning point for his character.
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  #72  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:12 PM
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Ah, got it got it. Was stuck on Vader's red lenses for some reason and couldn't think of what else you were meaning.
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  #73  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:14 PM
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Saw it again. Still convinced this is the best SW movie since Empire.
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  #74  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
I still love that Krennic is a Director - it satisfies on so many levels. He's the bureaucrat who can't imagine anything better than having the big desk with his shiny nameplate on it, blind to the disregard the greater institution has for his ambitions (or even his humanity.) But he's also a creator, the man behind the camera, who is fighting to keep outside reality from impacting the purity of his vision and failing every step of the way. Gareth Edwards and Gary Whitta (the fuckin PC GAMER guy wrote Rogue One, dear God) really took the piss out of themselves with Krennic and that's cool.

e: BTW, were you watching the lenses? Once again, looking isn't seeing.
Is Tarkin the Disney reshoots in this analogy? 😆
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  #75  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:36 PM
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Oh hey can we talk for a second about what a total thankless champ Bodhi Rook is?

He defects to deliver Galen's message to the one rebel he knows, and gets mind-raped for his trouble. Then he's rescued, and after barely escaping the Death Star test firing, Rebel leadership won't believe him because he's an Imperial. So he goes on the Hail Mary suicide mission, and dies ingloriously by grenade just after establishing the uplink crucial to the whole endeavor.

No big badass moment like Chirrut or Baz. No steely stare at the thousand-foot-high wall of death bearing down on him. Just conscience, courage, skin-of-his-teeth success, and instant death for his reward. The only reason any of the rest of it happens.

RIP Rook, you were a good defector, buddy.

Last edited by Sarcasmorator; 12-18-2016 at 09:50 PM.
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  #76  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:37 PM
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Is Tarkin the Disney reshoots in this analogy? 😆
I get the joke, but fundamentally yeah there's applicability. All the creators would have been aware of the realities of working with a major studio on a franchise picture, so it's even pretty ballsy of them to make that conflict a central part of the story.
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  #77  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:37 PM
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I managed to stay awake (despite ample booze) during the earlier Vader scenes and the choking pun did not feel off at all. Vader in the original trilogy always had a dark, dry sense of humor from scene one. He's not without a sense of irony despite being classically villainous. He accidentally killed his wife, took a bath in lava and lives in a space suit, eventually you start to develop some kind of gallows humor.

Cassian came alive a bit more and I think Chirrut's line about him carrying his prison, along with his argument with Jyn, unlocks what he's all about. I think Jyn's "turn" to Action Hero is a bit abrupt but this is a ~2 hour feature, not a 13-hour Netflix series, so abbreviated characterizations are pretty much what the audience has to work with. See also: Die. Hard.
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  #78  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:51 PM
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I get the feeling that Jyn's turn towards heroism was precipitated by a lot of stuff she had bubbling beneath the surface of her demeanor and her own mind, which was triggered by seeing the message from her father. It was a lever pulling on a larger machine, not a blueprint for a whole new perspective. The look on her face suggests a lot of emotions and ideas that had been repressed for a long time. She lived her life adrift and isolated, and probably had a lot of working theories for why everything had happened the way it did, without enough evidence to lock into any one specific explanation. Galen's message gave direction to the huge morass of contradictory thoughts that had been occupying her mind for years.

That is to say, I bought her quick turnaround pretty easily.
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  #79  
Old 12-18-2016, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Marati View Post
I get the feeling that Jyn's turn towards heroism was precipitated by a lot of stuff she had bubbling beneath the surface of her demeanor and her own mind, which was triggered by seeing the message from her father. It was a lever pulling on a larger machine, not a blueprint for a whole new perspective. The look on her face suggests a lot of emotions and ideas that had been repressed for a long time. She lived her life adrift and isolated, and probably had a lot of working theories for why everything had happened the way it did, without enough evidence to lock into any one specific explanation. Galen's message gave direction to the huge morass of contradictory thoughts that had been occupying her mind for years.

That is to say, I bought her quick turnaround pretty easily.
Yeah, this was exactly everything I thought about her too.
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  #80  
Old 12-19-2016, 12:24 AM
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I think that the most powerful wizard on earth is currently Yen Sid.
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  #81  
Old 12-19-2016, 05:52 AM
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It was kind of weird that Disney used the climax of this movie for a preview of their latest animated princess, though.
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  #82  
Old 12-19-2016, 06:44 AM
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I really liked it! I wasn't expecting the body count, though. I was afraid the reshoots had been done to make sure some characters could live on so they could market more toys in the future. I'm glad to know it wasn't the case!

The characters did feel somewhat thin, and the comments upthread about their characterizations being left on the cutting floor make sense. Space-Zatoichi's climax, for example, is much more stronger if he doesn't really believe in the force.

But all in all I really, really liked it. It was great fun, and it was nice to see the Death Star and Darth Vader used so effectively as means of terror. Also, Diego Luna must be over the moon right now - good for him, now he has something to lord over Gael Garcia Bernal.

One thing that did bother me, though, is that the movie takes zero time to explain its place in the Star Wars timeline. We nerds can piece it together, of course, but Ms. Brain - who is a muggle - was confused for the entire first part, thinking that it was dumb of the Remnant to try to create yet another Death Star because the other three had gone so well....
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  #83  
Old 12-19-2016, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
I managed to stay awake (despite ample booze) during the earlier Vader scenes and the choking pun did not feel off at all. Vader in the original trilogy always had a dark, dry sense of humor from scene one.
Exactly, Vader is a big dork who tries to sound cool but never pulls it off. He is blissfully unaware of this fact, though. Because the Force is always warping probability around him, he says:

"Now that's what I call podracing!" Then beats the best podracers in the galaxy, giving him positive reinforcement to continue making quips.

Later, he says:

"I hate sand. It's course and it gets everywhere. Not like you." Then somehow manages to get laid! He thinks he's the smoothest guy in Smoothtown, and he's never dissuaded from the fact. That he'd choke somebody and make a choke pun is totally keeping with his warped sensation of having a silver tongue.

Anyway, I left the theater feeling like I had just watched a Dragon Lance-esque dramatization a campaign from the old West End Star Wars RPG. Speaking to my friend yesterday, he brought up the same thought without me mentioning it. Something about the fragility of the characters (if you're playing the game right, there's always a huge body count if you get involved in combat), the focus on the average people of the galaxy rather than the heroes (you can't even create a Jedi in the game) and filling in the gaps between the known stories (I believe that was how the game was advertised) rang so similar between the two.
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  #84  
Old 12-19-2016, 07:29 AM
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I really liked this movie, despite sitting too close to the screen and craning my neck the whole time. The characters were all maybe a bit thin, but they were all new and had to have their entire arcs completed in a single film, so I thought they did a good job. I understood them better than the average war film, I'd say. Because this actually was a war film, unlike the Saga movies.

I like the way they tied the story into A New Hope, although most of the returning characters were a bit much for me. Mothma, Organa, Tarkin, and Vader all made sense and contributed to the story, at least. I really wish Leia wasn't there, her presence makes her attempt to bluff Vader that she was on a diplomatic mission wholly unbelievable. I wasn't sure what to expect from Vader, but I loved his scenes. Make Anakin Great Again.

I really appreciate the balls, both of Edwards and crew as filmmakers and Disney as a company, to release a Star Wars movie with no Jedi and all of the main characters dying.
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  #85  
Old 12-19-2016, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
One thing that did bother me, though, is that the movie takes zero time to explain its place in the Star Wars timeline.
If it's not clear when the laser array is installed into the Death Star, it's clear the instant Tarkin shows up. Basically all you need to have done to understand where this movie takes place is to have seen the original.
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  #86  
Old 12-19-2016, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThornGhost View Post
Exactly, Vader is a big dork who tries to sound cool but never pulls it off. He is blissfully unaware of this fact, though. Because the Force is always warping probability around him, he says:

"Now that's what I call podracing!" Then beats the best podracers in the galaxy, giving him positive reinforcement to continue making quips.

Later, he says:

"I hate sand. It's course and it gets everywhere. Not like you." Then somehow manages to get laid! He thinks he's the smoothest guy in Smoothtown, and he's never dissuaded from the fact. That he'd choke somebody and make a choke pun is totally keeping with his warped sensation of having a silver tongue.
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  #87  
Old 12-19-2016, 09:59 AM
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Add me to the list of people that walked out underwhelmed but entertained.

the first part of the movie felt like it needed a little room to breathe to me. We jumped through several planets and introduced a bunch of people in short order. I was overwhelmed. Probably becomes less of an issue in a second view or with a rewind button.

The first half of the movie felt a little "off brand". No opening scroll. The music has notes from the old themes, but veers into its own. I'm not complaining, though. I liked that it felt like its own thing. The second half really felt completely in the star wars mold which makes sense since it needs to dovetail right into ep 4. It made the parts where they divert from the typical that stand out even more. Maybe that was the point.

Star wars droids are just always the best.

I thought Vader's base seemed a bit odd. I mean, the dude should probably equate lava with his ultimate defeat and downfall and the guy decides to live in that environment. Says something about him I think. I thought the quip was kinda goofy at first, but on the drive home thought about how quippy Anakin was and decided I was ok with it.

I didn't notice Tarkin was animated. Leia was shocking to see. Was it obvious because I just saw the real actress in a recent movie and I know what she really looks like?

I knew everyone was going to die when I walked in. I had convinced myself there was going to be a twist and I was going to be wrong, so it didn't spoil the movie for me.

The fact the movie is so close to the originals makes the cameos feel wrong. There's no way the cantina guys survived so they must be different guys as an example.

In the end, i think i want to see it again and I think i would like it more.
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  #88  
Old 12-19-2016, 10:12 AM
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The fact the movie is so close to the originals makes the cameos feel wrong. There's no way the cantina guys survived so they must be different guys as an example.
If the heroes left the city before it was destroyed, why not them?
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  #89  
Old 12-19-2016, 10:17 AM
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I agree with the criticisms re: thinness of the characters, particularly with Jyn. At one point, Saw even asks her, "what do you want?" And she doesn't really answer - and that got me wondering. What DOES she want? Maybe that was the point of the line.

Despite this, I teared up at the ending, specifically the scene of Jyn and Cassian embracing in the light of the Death Star blast, and that's more than I can say for any other Star Wars film. I think I emotionally connect with the idea of good and sacrifice under the shadow of apocalyptic odds.

I loved the visual of the rebel ships colliding with a freshly warped in Star Destroyer as they are escaping the battle.

I got a strong Kurosawa sense from the opening shots, specifically, Mikkelson's character standing among the wind-blown grass to face the imperial forces. I loved how some of these shots darkly mirrored early shots from Episode IV. Dark literally in color, but also dark because you kind of know that there will be no hope of redemption for the people in the scene.
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  #90  
Old 12-19-2016, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
If the heroes left the city before it was destroyed, why not them?
Yeah I was fine with this cameo. There was enough time between when they show up and the Death Star blast for them to leave. Why couldn't they be on their way out just then? Plus, Evezan's boast of "death sentence on 12 systems" gives him reason to be on some other planet. Those guys get around.

The only cameos in the film that I did not really like were Artoo and Threepio (felt forced) and Leia (seems unreasonable for her to be there, and sort of fucks with the former cameo in terms of continuity)
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