The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about television games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #631  
Old 09-28-2017, 11:50 AM
Umby's Avatar
Umby Umby is offline
Bob
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,732
Default

Mark Brown's neat take on the differences between Metroid 2, AM2R, and Samus Returns, and how each remake takes the themes of the original and updates them.

Reply With Quote
  #632  
Old 09-28-2017, 12:38 PM
narcodis's Avatar
narcodis narcodis is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Salt Lake City UT
Posts: 3,445
Default

Man, the soundtrack in this game is so good. The way the Ridley fight escalates and escalates with each phase of the fight is SO COOL
Reply With Quote
  #633  
Old 09-28-2017, 01:10 PM
Klatrymadon's Avatar
Klatrymadon Klatrymadon is offline
Morbid symptom
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Liverpool / London
Posts: 3,127
Default

Just expunged Area 2 of its 8 Metroids. I'm having fun and don't hate it. Some inchoate early-days thoughts:

• The thing about the melee counters is that, because the enemies so effectively pounce on you as soon as you're within range, they can nail you before you've even reached a ledge or stood up from morph-balling to face them, so you end up trying to pre-emptively tag half of them from afar anyway (if they haven't already hit you by surprise).

• Countering is nonetheless a damn sight more fun to do than I thought it'd be, especially with the nice automatic lock-on you get after a well-executed parry. I was expecting it to be exactly as tedious as the combat in Mirror of Fate, and while it feels very one-note and silly to have literally every enemy take the same lunge at you, it's a relief that the execution is at least satisfying.

• It needs to stop putting little shrines and recharge points everywhere. Their haphazardness is diminishing what sense of place the game manages to build.

• ... It doesn't build much. One thing modern Metroids could be learning from SM, I think, is the importance of geographic and inter-area coherence. Recall that SM's Zebes made sense as a planet - the barren surface of Crateria giving way to the abundant vegetation of Brinstar, the crash-landed Wrecked Ship leading to the flooded condition of Maridia beneath it, Norfair being at the planet's molten core, etc. It'd be stupid and churlish to expect this lightning re-bottled, but SR's locations seem half-baked and ditzy within themselves, let alone in relation to one another.

• So much of its sound-world is actually Metroid Prime's, or actually Super's. Rather than creating a strong sense of its place in a series, this makes the game feel voiceless and out of steam. (It also makes it feel fan-projecty in a way that even AM2R did more to avoid.)

• Item progression seems a bit higgledy-piggledy. I gained the Varia, hi-jump boots and wave beam within minutes of each other. Each had a well-placed introduction to its utility nearby, but the possibility opened up by gaining these in rapid succession creates a flopsweaty floundering period rather than a confident "non-linearity".

• Good to see it upholds the storied tradition of standing over a hole and playing whack-a-mole to replenish health/ammo.

• You can't jump over the Gamma Metroids cleanly before getting the hi-jump boots, can you?

• I've had Samus get caught in an infinite somersault on some frozen enemies. There's a slightly unpolished, imprecise feeling at times (outside the aiming and combat mechanics, which feel spot-on), perhaps due in part to Samus' big gangly 3D model.

I mean all this for the sake of conversation rather than in a spirit of entitled grumpiness about the new thing. In fact, I think the lengthy criticisms I've read here have aided my enjoyment of the game enormously. I went into it knowing full well what I wouldn't like about it, so I haven't been surprised by disappointments every five minutes and dwelt upon what's wrong with it too much. It's at once doggedly generic and somehow off-brand, but it's a lot of fun from moment to moment.
Reply With Quote
  #634  
Old 09-28-2017, 02:18 PM
Peklo's Avatar
Peklo Peklo is online now
Love is OGR
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Finland
Posts: 290
Default

Brown's video is pretty good. Extremely happy that he cites S.R. Holiwell's A Maze of Murderscapes article on Metroid II—the most compelling writing on the game there is. Everyone should read it.
Reply With Quote
  #635  
Old 09-28-2017, 02:36 PM
conchobhar's Avatar
conchobhar conchobhar is online now
[kɾoˈxuːɾ]
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Snowy climes of Canada
Posts: 2,609
Default

Mark Brown is spot-on, as usual.
Reply With Quote
  #636  
Old 09-28-2017, 03:11 PM
Rascally Badger's Avatar
Rascally Badger Rascally Badger is online now
This Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hell, Earth
Posts: 9,128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chud_666 View Post
I just beat that boss. Very challenging, but cool.

PROTIP in third wave you have to leave bombs so it sucks them up to get it in prone position
Yeah, I figured it out and finished the game. As fun as I found that boss, I really think this game has a problem communicating what you are supposed to do in boss fights. They do so much damage and generally have such small windows to damage them that it can be really frustrating until you learn how they work.

Still, is a good game. It has been way too long since I'd played a new Metroid.
Reply With Quote
  #637  
Old 09-28-2017, 06:32 PM
WildcatJF's Avatar
WildcatJF WildcatJF is offline
Christmas Action Returns
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Somewhere Out There
Posts: 7,100
Default

HOLY FUCK I LOVE THE END WITH THE ROBOT BOSS WHERE SAMUS IS ALL POWER BOMBS FUCK YOUR LAST DITCH ATTACK ASSHOLE YES I'M SO HAPPY I HAVE BECOME BEAT
Reply With Quote
  #638  
Old 09-28-2017, 06:52 PM
narcodis's Avatar
narcodis narcodis is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Salt Lake City UT
Posts: 3,445
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildcatJF View Post
HOLY FUCK I LOVE THE END WITH THE ROBOT BOSS WHERE SAMUS IS ALL POWER BOMBS FUCK YOUR LAST DITCH ATTACK ASSHOLE YES I'M SO HAPPY I HAVE BECOME BEAT
For real, when she no-look shoots the Diggy boss in the face, that shit made me squeal like a schoolgirl.
Reply With Quote
  #639  
Old 09-28-2017, 07:34 PM
Octopus Prime's Avatar
Octopus Prime Octopus Prime is offline
Programmed to Jingle
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 43,005
Default

I preferred the earlier scene where Diggernaut steals the Power Bomb, and Samus just sadly slumps her shoulders
Reply With Quote
  #640  
Old 09-28-2017, 08:32 PM
WildcatJF's Avatar
WildcatJF WildcatJF is offline
Christmas Action Returns
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Somewhere Out There
Posts: 7,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
I preferred the earlier scene where Diggernaut steals the Power Bomb, and Samus just sadly slumps her shoulders
That was good too! I love the way Samus reacts to things in this game thus far. It's in line with how I envision her!
Reply With Quote
  #641  
Old 09-29-2017, 12:23 AM
Kishi's Avatar
Kishi Kishi is offline
Little Waves
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
I preferred the earlier scene where Diggernaut steals the Power Bomb, and Samus just sadly slumps her shoulders
I always mentally dub her muttering "Son of a..." at that point.
Reply With Quote
  #642  
Old 09-29-2017, 05:36 AM
Klatrymadon's Avatar
Klatrymadon Klatrymadon is offline
Morbid symptom
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Liverpool / London
Posts: 3,127
Default

Something I forgot to ask last night: is it just me, or did it seem to anyone else that the placement of the borrowed Fusion boss, Arachnus, is almost exactly the same in the two remakes?
Reply With Quote
  #643  
Old 09-29-2017, 08:49 AM
Dracula's Avatar
Dracula Dracula is offline
Video Monster
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: If you go in the direction of the arrow.
Posts: 3,044
Default

Finished this game last niiiiight

Loved it. About 12 hours with 100% items. I discovered the spider ball boost trick by accident, which was a really happy and exciting moment, but then I thought maybe the crystal blocks could be destroyed with some other secret technique. I kept thinking, "it's probably for the Baby Metroid," but then I'd notice how some puzzles had the blocks, but you could still solve them, and some seemingly didn't.

Anyway, I think it's neat how you can use the Baby Metroid as a shortcut through some of the item puzzles (and areas) - makes me wonder how important the baby will be for 100% speedruns.

I was a little iffy on the game at first, but it grabbed me more and more the further I got. Damn, I loved all the stuff going on in the backgrounds. This game really took advantage of the 3D. Really liked how you would see long hallways, walkways, doors, big creatures hanging out, all that kinda stuff going on.

Diggersby was my favorite boss and it made me wish there were two or three more original boss battles in the game. Ridley was, as someone else noted, mechanically great, but thematically kinda eh.

Omegas were my favorite type of Metroid to battle. Super tense, but the more you learn them, the more fun they are. The first Omega I defeated with literally 1 point of health left; the others never took more than half damage.

Again, like others have said, I loved how the battles reward you for remembering all the techniques Samus has available to her. Some people mentioned how they wished the bosses would give you more hints as to what techniques to use...I don't really agree. I accidentally spoiled myself on the use of the spider ball with Diggersby, but every other boss technique I felt was easy enough to discover through experimenting.

By the way, a few people have noted how weird it feels to collect several important powerups in a row. I've been playing OG Metroid II at the same time, and that's directly out of it. Whether bad or good, it's certainly faithful to the source.

Aaahhh, what else, what else...I think the best thing about this game is how it feels great to control Samus. The free-aim is genius. Melee counters feel awesome to pull off. I love jumping at a wall and tapping the screen and shoulder button at the right times to cling to it. The effect and sound of shooting and opening a door is weirdly satisfying.

I don't know how I would have finished this game without a 3DS grip, incidentally.

Oh and I do agree with the criticism of the game's soundscape. There's some originality to it, but it's mostly a mixture of Super and Prime. Using Lower Norfair in the hot rooms was a mistake. But, at the very least, it does sound really good, if you divorce yourself from how much of it is unoriginal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klatrymadon View Post
Something I forgot to ask last night: is it just me, or did it seem to anyone else that the placement of the borrowed Fusion boss, Arachnus, is almost exactly the same in the two remakes?
Wait, what? Where was Arachnus in this game?

...and what are these Chozo Memories that people keep talking about? Can you only see them with Amiibos?
Reply With Quote
  #644  
Old 09-29-2017, 08:56 AM
Klatrymadon's Avatar
Klatrymadon Klatrymadon is offline
Morbid symptom
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Liverpool / London
Posts: 3,127
Default

I fought him in Area 2 and got a classic item from him that's possibly optional. Spoilered below:

It's the Spring Ball.
Reply With Quote
  #645  
Old 09-29-2017, 08:56 AM
Octopus Prime's Avatar
Octopus Prime Octopus Prime is offline
Programmed to Jingle
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 43,005
Default

He was was in the original game, too. Same role and I'm fairly sure the same spot on the map.

He's just a full-fledged Boss Fight now, as opposed to a Particularly Tough Enemy.

And it's a required fight now because you need that item to bypass some obstacles and reach Metroids in Area 2
Reply With Quote
  #646  
Old 09-29-2017, 08:57 AM
Klatrymadon's Avatar
Klatrymadon Klatrymadon is offline
Morbid symptom
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Liverpool / London
Posts: 3,127
Default

Oh yeah, so he is! It's been a while, but I can visualise the sprite. He even had the same bouncing attack. That answers my previous question, then. Cheers!

The Murderscapes piece (which that video largely piggybacks on, actually) has inspired a revisiting, so I'll see him again soon.

"Borrowed Fusion boss" indeed. N00b.

Last edited by Klatrymadon; 09-29-2017 at 05:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #647  
Old 09-29-2017, 09:26 AM
Dracula's Avatar
Dracula Dracula is offline
Video Monster
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: If you go in the direction of the arrow.
Posts: 3,044
Default

Oh yeah yeah. I was thinking you guys were talking about the big spider robot from Fusion (Arachnus sure is a weird name for a turtle guy).
Reply With Quote
  #648  
Old 09-29-2017, 09:43 AM
Kishi's Avatar
Kishi Kishi is offline
Little Waves
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,258
Default

Arachnus's Japanese name is Marukara, which at least hints at its deal ("maru" meaning "round," as also seen in the Maru Mari).

And yeah, it's from Metroid II in the first place. Early footage of Fusion shows Samus fighting it in the area of the space station that mimics SR388, but I guess they moved the fight up to give you the Morphing Ball earlier.
Reply With Quote
  #649  
Old 09-29-2017, 09:44 AM
chud_666's Avatar
chud_666 chud_666 is offline
120 Days
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Salo
Posts: 7,986
Default

Just thinking:
Was free aim in Shadow COmplex? Or am I crazy?
Reply With Quote
  #650  
Old 09-29-2017, 09:51 AM
Vaeran's Avatar
Vaeran Vaeran is offline
whatever it takes
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,993
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
...and what are these Chozo Memories that people keep talking about? Can you only see them with Amiibos?
They don't have anything to do with amiibo -- they unlock after you beat the game and are based on item percentage. Go into Options -> Gallery to see them.
Reply With Quote
  #651  
Old 09-29-2017, 10:05 AM
Dracula's Avatar
Dracula Dracula is offline
Video Monster
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: If you go in the direction of the arrow.
Posts: 3,044
Default

Oh sweet. Well I know what I'm doing when I get home
Reply With Quote
  #652  
Old 09-29-2017, 10:13 AM
Falselogic's Avatar
Falselogic Falselogic is offline
Threadcromantosaurus Rex
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: California
Posts: 30,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umby View Post
Mark Brown's neat take on the differences between Metroid 2, AM2R, and Samus Returns, and how each remake takes the themes of the original and updates them.

I thought this was a thoughtful video. He does a good job of outlining how the two remakes succeed and even more important to me how they fail in capturing the "feel" and some of the themes of the original.
Reply With Quote
  #653  
Old 09-29-2017, 10:27 AM
Dracula's Avatar
Dracula Dracula is offline
Video Monster
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: If you go in the direction of the arrow.
Posts: 3,044
Default

I haven't played AM2R yet but I think I'm gonna watch that video anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #654  
Old 09-29-2017, 10:35 AM
Octopus Prime's Avatar
Octopus Prime Octopus Prime is offline
Programmed to Jingle
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 43,005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
Oh yeah yeah. I was thinking you guys were talking about the big spider robot from Fusion (Arachnus sure is a weird name for a turtle guy).
Yakuza was the spider-guy. Games naming scheme was a trifle bit curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chud_666 View Post
Just thinking:
Was free aim in Shadow COmplex? Or am I crazy?
I think it just auto-locked on to the nearest enemy, which worked out to about the same thing.
Reply With Quote
  #655  
Old 09-29-2017, 10:54 AM
Klatrymadon's Avatar
Klatrymadon Klatrymadon is offline
Morbid symptom
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Liverpool / London
Posts: 3,127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falselogic View Post
and even more important to me how they fail in capturing the "feel" and some of the themes of the original.
Yeah, I'm at Area 3 in SR and have experienced some of its heavy-handed tonal changes already, but the video really shows up how blockheaded and unsubtle some of the later examples are...

It seems not so much a case of having tried to update something according to "modern tastes", whatever that might mean, and having made a few missteps that way, but of literally failing to look at and understand the source material (outside the basic nuts and bolts of its map, item and enemy placements, etc, which have been treated with a keen eye and great reverence).
Reply With Quote
  #656  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:00 AM
Ludendorkk's Avatar
Ludendorkk Ludendorkk is offline
Chief Servbot
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lima, OH
Posts: 1,917
Default

Analog aiming in Shadow Complex allows you to lock on to enemies in the background, which is interesting but also makes it feel way more fiddly and imprecise than Samus Returns
Reply With Quote
  #657  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:05 AM
chud_666's Avatar
chud_666 chud_666 is offline
120 Days
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Salo
Posts: 7,986
Default

I'm going to play again after i 100% metroid
Reply With Quote
  #658  
Old 09-29-2017, 02:19 PM
conchobhar's Avatar
conchobhar conchobhar is online now
[kɾoˈxuːɾ]
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Snowy climes of Canada
Posts: 2,609
Default

I beat the game last week, and I've been ruminating on it since. In short: I didn't like it, and think it's an extremely ill-begotten entry in the franchise. Spoilerpopped for length; any actual spoilers will be further tagged:


My biggest problem with Samus Returns is that it doesn't feel like Metroid II. Sure, it's got the overarching structure, but it lacks any of the interesting geography, abstract music, sense of tension, or clever level design and environmental storytelling that so defined Metroid II. Everything that made Metroid II Metroid II has been sanded off, the game hammered into the modern Metroid mold with its Super and/or Prime aesthetic, toolkit and puzzlebox level design. All this does is rob Samus Returns— and by extension, Metroid II, since this game is obviously seeking to replace it in players' minds— of any identity of its own.

The music is very indicative of this, featuring as many lifts from Super, Prime and even Metroid 1 as possible, with almost nothing returning from Metroid II— to the point that Metroid II's iconic "Sudden Metroid Spike" is dropped in favour of a remix of "Tourian", for some reason.

The Chozo presence is a major misstep. Now, yes, Metroid II already featured Chozo Ruins, but they had a distinct character that stood apart from both earlier and later depictions that is no longer the case here. SR-388 is now a full-fledged Chozo planet, the entire interior being a large Chozo complex, complete with dusty yellow ruins everywhere. Aside from the obvious aesthetic change, this recontextualizes Samus' mission; that Metroid lairs are guarded by Chozo contraptions that unlock only after hunting down other Metroids frames the game not as a Galactic Federation assignment, but the fulfillment of an ancient Chozo edict or ritual. Metroid II (and, later, Super and Fusion) wanted the player to be a bit conflicted about exterminating the Metroids; Samus Returns doesn't want any of that.

What bothers me most of all is that Samus Returns lacks any and all of Metroid II's tension and atmosphere. Mark Brown already covered this in his video, but it bears repeating. I love the final caves in Metroid II, and how they're completely devoid of life. At first it's a tense moment, as the player fears that final metroid could be around any corner; then as none are forthcoming, it seems quiet and lonely; and then, upon emerging in a final base, it dawns that this is all leading up to a showdown with the leader. Or, how the final ascent with the hatchling is another series of empty caves, and leads to the surface where the distant stars give the player— and Samus— their first glimpse of light in the entire game. Samus Returns fills these caves with enemies and navigational puzzles that isn't conductive to any sort of introspection. These are some of the best, and most memorable parts of Metroid II; to see them tossed aside makes me question the entire project.

And the less said about Ridley, the better.

My second biggest problem is that the counter mechanic is very poorly implemented. I like counter systems as much as the next person (even if I rarely get the hang of them), but Samus Returns goes overboard by necessitating its use for every single encounter. From the way that enemies soak damage, deal plenty in return, and aggressively rush the player… but are felled in a single shot after countered and stunned… the game makes it all but impossible to fight without it. And since enemies are everywhere in this game, that means just navigating rooms is a constant start-and-stop as the player has to pause and lure the enemy into a counter before being able to move on. This gets even more tiring when one realizes there's only, like, four enemies in the game, so it's the exact same enemy encounters for hours upon hours.

My third biggest problem is that the metroid fights are pretty bad. Samus Returns wants these to be proper boss battles, but its falls flat; for all that the metroids' abilities and patterns are beefed up, they're undermined by the game's free aim and counter abilities. Like, the Alpha now floats high above, dropping little balls of electricity, and can generate an electric barrier to rush Samus with… but none of it matters, because the most effective strategy is to lock position and aim at the underbelly, jump straight up during a protected charge, counter if not. It's so very boring, just waiting and reacting accordingly. Gammas are a little more involved, as are Zetas, but this approach more or less holds. Only Omegas feel like proper slugfests, and they're late in the game.

Exacerbating this problem is that all metroids are fought in big, open rooms that give plenty of space to move around. Sometimes they try to mix it up by adding lava, or a raised platform, but it amounts to little and hardly affects strategy. This contrasts strongly with Metroid II, which used all sorts of different room layouts to force different approaches to fights. Here, once you've fought one, you've fought them all.

Other parts of the game just feel sloppy and poorly considered. There are a lot of gotcha moments throughout. Platforming often involves blind ascents or drops, and doing so typically brings the player into contact with a patrolling enemy that they had no way of seeing. The self-contained puzzle challenges feature liberal use of crumbling blocks, even at spots that aren't crucial to the actual puzzle. It's very cheap. Do they expect the player to be crawling around in Spider Ball mode the entire game?

The game also does a very, very poor job of explaining things. There is, of course, the digging robot, as has been mentioned several times in the thread. But there's other stuff, like how the grappling beam signifiers are odd, in that it's a glowing red dot that's supposed to clue the player in to using their blue beam. And I got stuck, twice, because I didn't realize the lightning armor and rapid fire could be used to bypass certain obstacles— the game never mentioned it, despite clearly explaining their combat use.

Really, the Aeion abilities feel entirely unnecessary. Scan is nice and appreciated, but the lightning armor, rapid fire and time slow feel like they exist purely for puzzles and enemies that themselves only exist to show off the Aeion abilities. Normally I don't mind or complain about excess like this, but it's annoying here because this whole mechanic took up the d-pad and the A button, in a game that already has clumsy controls! I would easily trade these for digital movement and a button to switch between beams/missiles. Just put scan on the touch screen, where it makes sense.


In conclusion, MercuryStream completely misses the point of everything once again.

Last edited by conchobhar; 09-29-2017 at 02:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #659  
Old 09-29-2017, 02:22 PM
Octopus Prime's Avatar
Octopus Prime Octopus Prime is offline
Programmed to Jingle
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 43,005
Default

For the life of me, I can not think of the last time a game on this forum has had such divisive opinions.
Reply With Quote
  #660  
Old 09-29-2017, 03:01 PM
chud_666's Avatar
chud_666 chud_666 is offline
120 Days
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Salo
Posts: 7,986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
For the life of me, I can not think of the last time a game on this forum has had such divisive opinions.
Also until it came out I never knew that OG 2 had super passionate fan base.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
aaahh!!! real metroids , another metroid 2 remake , galaxy is not at peace , game over return of samus , ibelieveinsakamoto , metro android , metroid , metroid 2 , metroid 2ds , metroid is dead , metroid of fate , monkey's paw? , new good metroid games , nintendo , nintendo 3ds , nintendo wins e3 again , return of return of samus , y can metroid punch?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts ©you, 2007