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  #151  
Old 02-26-2013, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by VorpalEdge View Post
Most games internally store your position to a precision smaller than a pixel. These are called subpixels.
Citation needed.

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She makes a map. She downloads a screenshot map with all item locations marked and MSPaints her route over it and across the entire game. It gets every missile and super that isn't 200 rooms away, etc. All things you would skip in a high-level run. But you know what? She then proceeded to play it, and she finished the game. One or two deaths on Ridley, that's it.

She hasn't played the game since, but I count it as a smashing success. that, my friends, is what accessibility is.
Uh... wouldn't accessibility be when you have no reason to do any of that because it's all quite straightforward?

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Originally Posted by boot101 View Post
The interface honestly isnt that bad, its just incomprehensible to newcomers. The keyboard shortcuts honestly dont take that long to learn and are also completely customizable.
Yeah, the impenetrable interface angle I've never understood. Let me break it down just off the top of my head:

There's totally a mouse-interface. We're just crudely emulating the mouse with a keyboard. Arrow keys move the mouse around, and return clicks. When you have to drag, you use the arrow keys to move your point of origin, and uhjk for how big the area is. You "right-click" on buildings with Q to change what they're doing. K hovers over things for more info.

You hit D a lot to switch into DIG mode, where you just click on stuff you want someone to dig out. You hit B a lot to bring up the menu to set up BUILDINGS (and furniture).

For extra credit, you also hit P sometimes to tell people where they should PUT STUFF, and V to VIEW what a random given dwarf is doing instead of what you want from them (and see their inventory, and toggle on what things they'll do).

Finally, you hit < and > to switch floors.

That's it. That's the whole interface. And the gameplay pretty much boils down to "make every type of building, hit Q in their general direction, set up a queue of stuff that needs building."

Is all of that weird as hell? Yes, totally. Hard to learn though? Not if you actually make an effort to do so, no.
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  #152  
Old 02-26-2013, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Googleshng View Post
Citation needed.
How about shut the fuck up and just trust someone who might possibly know more about something than you do.
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  #153  
Old 02-26-2013, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Googleshng View Post
Citation needed.
On this subject, Vorpal is his own citation. Speedrunning and TAS communities know their shit. They dissect game code looking for any edge they can get. Here's a taste.

As for the rest of your post... see, Tefari? I told you dawg.
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  #154  
Old 02-26-2013, 10:52 PM
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oh my that's so oh gawd my brain hurts
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  #155  
Old 02-26-2013, 11:24 PM
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oh my that's so oh gawd my brain hurts
I know, isn't it beautiful?
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  #156  
Old 02-26-2013, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Googleshng View Post
Citation needed.
What format would you like it in? Are you ok waiting for 5 years? See, to do a proper job I'd have to disassemble 1000 games and take the average, and then also account for things like genre, when it was made, and so on. Got any other stipulations you want to attach? Is 'most' just > 50%? Does it have to be 2/3rds? 75%? How many standard deviations of precision do I go for? I don't know if I'd be comfortable with three.

alternatively: trust me. alternatively alternatively: assume that even if I'm wrong, the sentence still works if you replace 'most' with 'many', so you can accept that it's easily possible.

Also Brick, I'm kinda amused that you of all people are saying to take it on someone's authority. =p

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Uh... wouldn't accessibility be when you have no reason to do any of that because it's all quite straightforward?
Was being somewhat facetious right there, because all stories end with a moral that can be summed up in a single sentence. Aesop taught me so. Main point is that difficulty curves are great, cliffs less so.

Last edited by VorpalEdge; 02-27-2013 at 12:17 AM.
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  #157  
Old 02-26-2013, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by VorpalEdge View Post
Also Brick, I'm kinda amused that you of all people are saying to take it on someone's authority. =p
Hey, when you're an authority, you're an authority. Ask a mechanic to learn about carburetors. Ask a chef to learn about herbs and spices. Ask a speedrunner to learn about measuring subpixels.
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  #158  
Old 02-27-2013, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tefari View Post
How about shut the fuck up and just trust someone who might possibly know more about something than you do.
See, this wasn't me going "I believe you are making up silly things and would like to publicly ridicule you!" This was me going "Wait what? I'd like to see some more in-depth information about this." And saying so resulted in this:

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Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
Which is exactly what I wanted. I had no idea that movement in Mega Man was that complex, code wise, much less that this is actually the norm.
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  #159  
Old 02-27-2013, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Googleshng View Post
See, this wasn't me going "I believe you are making up silly things and would like to publicly ridicule you!" This was me going "Wait what? I'd like to see some more in-depth information about this." And saying so resulted in this:
The exact words "citation needed" are generally understood as a way of saying "I don't believe you." Not an especially polite one, either.
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  #160  
Old 02-27-2013, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Googleshng View Post
Yeah, the impenetrable interface angle I've never understood.
It's not so much incomprehensible as it is unintuitive as well as inconsistent with itself.

Let's say you've spent some time learning how to play and have finally managed to get a few workshops running. Maybe you've produced some basic weapons and armor. You're starting to get the hang of this! So then you decide you want to make an army since you've made some equipment. You push the 'm' key to go to the military screen and... you're faced with a menu completely unlike everything you've learned up to that point. You need to learn how the interface works again before you can make use of this new mechanic. And that's going to keep happening as you try to make use of more features.

And the game uses different keys to achieve the the same function in different places. There are something like three or four different key sets you need to use to scroll up and down depending on which menu you're in. Like, in one menu you use the up and down arrow keys, in another you use + and -, or page up and page down. I think one even uses / and *.

I know that the game isn't complete and that Tarn doesn't want to spend a lot of time on something that need to be replaced. That's totally understandable, but it's still an awful UI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
Quoted for posterity, considering Tefari is one of my more vocal opponents in our frequent "accessibility: is it important?" debates.
Surely no one is against improving accessibility when it doesn't come at a cost to the game's depth and challenge. R-right?
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  #161  
Old 02-27-2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
Surely no one is against improving accessibility when it doesn't come at a cost to the game's depth and challenge. R-right?
Clearly, you're unfamiliar with the fighting games community.
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  #162  
Old 02-27-2013, 12:28 PM
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Fighting games are a clever ruse designed to keep fighting game players away from society at large.
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  #163  
Old 02-27-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtsund View Post
The exact words "citation needed" are generally understood as a way of saying "I don't believe you." Not an especially polite one, either.
citation ne--ppfffttthhehhahahhahaha
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  #164  
Old 02-27-2013, 06:37 PM
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hey guys i heard fun was determined by consensus

that's why league of legends is the best game of all time
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  #165  
Old 02-27-2013, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by spineshark View Post
hey guys i heard fun was determined by consensus

that's why Farmville is the best game of all time
League of Legends runs a close second I think.
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  #166  
Old 01-10-2014, 02:04 AM
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Bumping and semi-hijacking this thread because I don't feel like I have quite enough to contribute, but at the same time I don't think it would be worth just kinda throwing into the "not worth its own thread" thread.

basically, was hanging out on Brickroad's stream and it was brought up that there might be some interest in a Dwarf Fortress stream, done by someone competent enough to not go mad from beholding the interface. Well, I finally got around to getting streaming to work, and I did a three hour stream today, and will be doing regular streams in the future at http://www.twitch.tv/laularukyrumo

shameless advertising out of the way, oh man this game is awesum

I dunno. I used to hang out on forums a lot but nowadays I just feel like I don't have as much to say all at once like this. Maybe I've been spoiled by chat-based interfaces.

interestingly, this game has kinda started to help me out of my depression. I'd been avoiding it because while it's fun, it takes a lot of effort to play, and I've been pretty much taking any excuse I could to not do things that took any small amount of effort. DF has kinda started to break me back out of that pattern, so that's good.
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  #167  
Old 01-10-2014, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaularuKyrumo View Post
interestingly, this game has kinda started to help me out of my depression. I'd been avoiding it because while it's fun, it takes a lot of effort to play, and I've been pretty much taking any excuse I could to not do things that took any small amount of effort. DF has kinda started to break me back out of that pattern, so that's good.
That is... a super cool thing.
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  #168  
Old 01-28-2015, 05:36 AM
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ok, so I've been playing DF a bunch lately and I've bumped into a bug and I'm curious how to fix it in my fort.

If Lye is stored in an earthenware pot as opposed to a wood barrel, the jobs that use the Lye cancel because the dwarfs can't find "Lye-bearing container"

So, now I've got Lye in a pot that I can't actually use for anything and any more that I make will get stacked into that pot as well. If I dump the pot, but not the Lye, with the dwarves move the lye to a new container?

Once I get it in a barrel, I just need to make sure we never use the last unit of lye and the dwarves will keep stacking it into the same barrel and everything will be good... right?

I've also got a metalsmith's forge that absolutely refuses to do any work unless I set my charcoal stockpile to Give to the forge. I like the Give/Take system, but I feel like since a workshop will ONLY look in that pile once you've set a Give, if you do one, you almost have to do them all...
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  #169  
Old 01-28-2015, 11:22 AM
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You have that backwards--you dump the lye, but not the pot. You should then forbid the pot, but ONLY after they get the lye out of the pot. Alternatively, I think if you just forbid the pot outright, you can make more lye and it'll go elsewhere.

I seem to remember dwarves putting lye in buckets, too, though. That's never something I've run into, although admittedly I very rarely even make soap. And FORGET about fertilizer. (Though I'm pretty sure you can make Potash directly from ash.)

As far as the forge, that behavior is correct: if you set a pile to give to a workshop, that workshop will ONLY look at piles that are giving to it. It's not smart enough to look outside that pile for multi-item jobs, so you do need to set it to accept a source of fuel. Alternatively, go get some nickel (or iron I GUESS IF YOU FEEL WASTEFUL) and make some minecarts. You can move magma in small amounts with minecarts, and it won't take much to set up a magma forge wherever you want. Because nertz to that nonsense.

I mean I GUESS you still need it if you're making steel but I never seem to get all the ingredients anyways, so I typically jump from bronze straight to, ahem, the good stuff.
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  #170  
Old 01-28-2015, 12:26 PM
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Thanks. I knew there'd be some combination that would let me get the lye out of the pot and I really wasn't interested in watching dwarves ignore my desires because I didn't have the order right...

I tend to put a bunch of restrictions on myself in DF simply because it seems like it would make more sense. I know I can make almost anything out of stone, but some things seem to me like they would be highly inconvenient if they were stone (doors, cabinets). So, I've been setting up to make some furniture out of copper and glass.

I want to make clear glass for the higher value it has and I was making potash from lye (and because clear glass makes a better window) but I'll switch to going from ash straight to potash. I was only doing the lye step to give dwarves extra work. complexity for complexity's sake is kinda the point of DF to me...
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  #171  
Old 01-29-2015, 05:26 PM
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Dumping the pot but not the lye results in the pot being dumped with the lye in it

Dumping the lye but not the pot results in no action from the dwarves for me...
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  #172  
Old 01-30-2015, 06:35 AM
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Well, I couldn't figure it out, so I just dumped and forbid the stupid pot. Maybe when winter comes and the lye freezes I can do something with it...

I haven't really played a lot with the version that introduced medical and military stuff (and I'm not touching the newest versions yet) but I got my first kobold thief and I'm really pleased with how the military responded. I had one marksdwarf who never picked up any bolts, so he tried to beat the kobold to death and got himself stabbed in the foot while the rest of the squad that was on guard duty pincushioned the kobold. the thief disengaged and made a run for it but as he was fleeing, one of my marksdwarves shot him in the leg.

The wounded dwarf was quickly handled by the medical staff. He was diagnosed, cleaned (with soap), stiched and bandaged and hopped out of bed and is back on duty. Someone even came by and cleaned up the blood and restocked the hospital (but didn't overstock it!)

When the buggy parts of DF don't work, it can be a bit frustrating, but when the complex little systems work perfectly, I think its pretty cool how detailed it is.
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  #173  
Old 11-27-2017, 06:59 AM
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Dwarf Fortress version 0.44 is out. You can finally interact with the world map in fortress mode. You can send your squads out on raids. They also brought in pedestals and museums which is nice since I would do that anyways by building artifact furniture and dumping artifact items into a high traffic area for appreciation, so now its official. Now the worst part is waiting for it to stabilize and for the mods to update if needed.
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  #174  
Old 11-27-2017, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeryn View Post
Dwarf Fortress version 0.44 is out. You can finally interact with the world map in fortress mode. You can send your squads out on raids. They also brought in pedestals and museums which is nice since I would do that anyways by building artifact furniture and dumping artifact items into a high traffic area for appreciation, so now its official. Now the worst part is waiting for it to stabilize and for the mods to update if needed.
I have waited years for this and my winter break is coming up.

Hell

fuccckkkkkin

Yes
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  #175  
Old 04-13-2018, 05:14 AM
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I found a couple links to recent videos interviewing Tarn, programmer for Dwarf Fortress.

Some interesting looks into his and his brother's childhood and the inspirations for their games and you can really see how it informs what they focus on.

They also tease that he's got a sort of working version of a creation myth generator and it is supposed to tie into how magic works in any generated world. I thought it was in interesting look behind the scene.
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  #176  
Old 03-15-2019, 12:00 PM
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Tarn did an AMA on Reddit today and dropped the news that DF will be coming to Steam and Itch soonish with new graphics, music and extended mouse support. The free version, soon-to-be-dubbed Dwarf Fortress Classic will continue to be a focus and updated. The brothers are doing this seemingly because of some health scares and a hard look at their current primary income source Patreon. I don't blame 'em.
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