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  #31  
Old 03-15-2019, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JBear View Post
Most of my opinions even 10 years ago were primarily bad! I have ample documentation of this!
this for me but MORE.
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  #32  
Old 03-15-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by GoggleBob View Post
Would you mind elaborating on the point of orientalism, or providing a link to a run-down? I'm a (dumb) white guy, and I completely missed what happened in that department with Mortal Kombat.
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm speaking as a white person too. I cannot offer the crucial lived perspective to any of this, don't want to come off as a point of authority, and am likely missing many crucial nuances and angles to this, but: Mortal Kombat to my eyes is, and has always been, a fundamentally orientalist fantasy. It was created by twenty-something white guys who infused the entire thing with absolutely out-of-control demeaning amalgamated stereotypes of every half-remembered exploitative factoid they'd ever absorbed from popular culture that never had anything more to say about any Asian culture except that they were singularly, interchangeably, "Asian." There's Raiden, named after a Japanese thunder deity, whose every visual signifier is Chinese, who's coded to be visually white and who was played by a white actor upon conception, whose iconic soundbyte is often initially interpreted as "Japanese... I think" because doesn't it sound so weird and foreign, but which, officially, is just "gibberish." There's Bo' Rai Cho, whose etymology speaks for itself:

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In Spanish, the word "borracho" means "drunk." According to character artist Herman Sanchez, the word simply felt Asian-sounding enough to use for Bo' Rai Cho after being broken down into three seperate syllables.
There's Shujinko, whose name is just literally the Japanese word for "protagonist", but it sure sounds like a neat foreign name to Eurocentric ears. This goes on forever; there's actually too much to talk about. Mortal Kombat takes and appropriates real cultures and real people to its own ends, leaving behind only twisted reflections of its inspirations and contributes to an ongoing narrative of racism, even in the context of the low standards of its peers and genre.

Something that I'm more confident and able to speak to is perhaps the series's depiction of women, of which you can read a good article here. It's as bad or worse!
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  #33  
Old 03-17-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ShakeWell View Post
I think this is just it, right? I mean... it's not for you. That's fine. But all MK is doing is moving with the times. Uppercutting a dude's head off doesn't have the same impact it did in 1993, so now *insert graphic description of new fatality here* is what they do. If that's not for you, then I think that's totally fine! But I'm admittedly a bit of a gore hound, so I'm here for it.

And if you like the systems, but not the gore? Injustice is a thing! Very similar, no fatalities!
See, here's my problem. While I do indeed enjoy Injustice, I find it feels more like its own thing in both gameplay and... well, everything else. The only similarity I find to MK is its standard of quality (which is to say, quite high).

MK, I've been a fan of from practically the beginning. As bad as it gets sometimes (and I'll admit I checked out for the most part during the PS2 era, though not necessarily for any reason due to the games themselves), I like the characters, the settings, the lore, and the story. And I'm not going to get more of that with Injustice.

I love the new games, but they do get a bit... intense. As noted, the lower fidelity made the gruesome stuff easy to swallow back in the day, and a lot of it was Itchy & Scratchy type violence besides -- patently absurd, almost cartoonish, and even outright cartoonish, despite the realism provided by the digitized graphics.

While I like the art style and story direction, other additions make me squeamish in a way the old games never did. The bone-breaking X-Ray moves in particular make me wince in a way a foot through the chest or ripping out a heart never did.

For what it's worth, it actually feels like MK11 might be dialing things back just a little. I haven't seen the X-Ray moves featured as prominently or as in-your-face when they do occur, for instance, and some of the Fatalities are indeed more the sort of Itchy & Scratchy goofiness I enjoyed before (I particularly like Cassie's new one with the groin kick -- spoilered, just to be safe)



Seriously, that's just classically brilliant.

But honestly? I'd love some options for this stuff. I still love the franchise, I just don't love all the new stuff that's come with it, and while I'd never ask them to actually REMOVE this stuff, I would like to tweak things to make them a little more palatable.

For instance, the X-Ray moves, and not zooming in and showing the stuff shattering in slow-motion. Keep the moves and the damage they do, just don't highlight it so much. Johnny Cage throwing a fireball is a more impressive feat, technically speaking, but that doesn't get a close-up, you know?

And some of the Fatalities, like for instance if the innards were maybe just obscured more with like, red, like they used to? Or something? I'd be fine with that.
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  #34  
Old 03-18-2019, 07:22 AM
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The new Mortal Kombat games rule.
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  #35  
Old 03-18-2019, 08:22 AM
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Some 9 and MKX fatalities went a bit far for me, but I love the concept of brutalities as made in MKX and am glad they're continuing it. The MK11 ones all look pretty funny too. I didn't use fatalities much in MKX cause it turned out I liked looking at the regular win poses more for the most part, or doing the brutalities where old characters would bust out one of their classic win poses after doing it.

I find NRS a little more nimble and receptive than most fighting game developers. I can't find it but I always recall an interview boon did around MK9 where he seemed flat out embarrassed to answer a question about all the women looking like strippers and was like "ahhhh there were two different thoughts in the office and one won out..." and then in MKX all the women looked a lot more sensible. They still hone their craft on letting parents dismember their children, though, lol.

Fidelity has something to do with it but MK always had a bit of humor to its extreme violence, to the point where its so absurd you couldn't possibly believe it real kind of like Jason movie. It's a distinctly 90s school of thought that maybe people can't buy into now that real ass acts of violence have become so much more :\. That said, other lower fidelity games disturbed me as a kid like Doom...or the puffer fish in Donkey Kong Country
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  #36  
Old 03-18-2019, 10:35 AM
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I'm fine with ultra-violence in games...uh, sort of? It just feels...like, I'm not 10 anymore, ya know? When I see super gore I don't go "OH COOL" I go "Alright, fuckin'...RELAX". If the violence is there to serve some sort of purpose, then I think it's fine. I just typed up a bunch of examples and started going too far down those rabbitholes, so fuck it I'll just leave it at that.

But I think the violence needs to serve a purpose other than pure spectacle, and in MK's case, I don't really think it does. It seems especially weird to me as NRS keeps trying with each game to be a more "legit" fighting game, but they won't abandon the hyper-gore. But then if they DID abandon it, people would complain...guess you can't win when you build your entire series around decapitating people
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  #37  
Old 03-18-2019, 10:46 AM
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Tone is important too; there are plenty of MK fatalities, even in the recent games, that are sufficiently goofy that the violence doesn’t register. And there are also quite a few that go the other direction and are honestly upsetting to watch.

And then you get things like the Tomb Raider reboot (or at least the first one, Shadow and Rise weren’t so bad) where, despite the lower ESRB rating, every death scene was completely horrifying.
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  #38  
Old 03-18-2019, 11:03 AM
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The new Tomb Raider games were not a lower ESRB rating, Octo.
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  #39  
Old 03-18-2019, 12:13 PM
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Fair enough.

Gonna chalk that up as research I didn’t do.
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  #40  
Old 03-18-2019, 12:23 PM
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I honestly find the level of realistic violence in Mortal Kombat 11 to be kind of confusing?



Like . . . people keep exploding each other's bones and impaling someone's brain on a knife, and then . . . the fight just keeps going???

This doesn't bother me in more cartoonish games like Street Fighter or DBZ Fighters, but for some reason in MK11 it's just baffling and hilarious to me. It's like every cinematic special move is obviously a full on literal murder that vaporizes someone's bones or internal organs, instead of like a really elaborate series of punches or an energy blast or flashy grapple move whatever. So, everyone gets just straight up murdered like a dozen times in the course of one match but no one seems to notice that they've already been murdered multiple times and are clearly already dead.

I get that this critique technically applies to any life bar based fighting game with cinematic special attacks, and I get that in Mortal Kombat lore many of these characters are not human, but even considering that something about the way it's portrayed in MK11 just does not work for me at all.
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  #41  
Old 03-18-2019, 01:01 PM
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My headcanon is that everyone in MK has Wolverines Mutant Healing Factor, matches just end because the fighters are tired.

Also, the actual canon seems to imply that death is voluntary, and you can bring evejnthe deadest of people back to full health if you’re persuasive enough when you ask.
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  #42  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:19 AM
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It seems beyond the scope of this thread, but I could write a complete rundown of all the characters in Mortal Kombat X, and how it's kind of clear that blatant death and dismemberment are, at best, suggestions for these fighters. Long story short, as of Mortal Kombat X, one of the character "twists" is that Scorpion, an undead skeleton since his appearance in Mortalk Kombat I, is now an alive human who just kind of incidentally has fire-skeleton powers.

Sub-Zero was turned into a robot. But then he died. And then he got better.

(Also, Peklo, thank you for the response.)
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  #43  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:26 AM
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A lot Of characters who could not have been more obviously deceased by the end of MK9 (up to the point that you also fight and destroy many of their zombies near the end of the story) are alive and well in X, because people asked them politely to cease being dead.

Scorpion is only noteworthy because I guess he never tried that before in the preceding 25 years of the franchise.
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  #44  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:43 AM
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Being dead was never really a liability for Scorpion.
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  #45  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:46 AM
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He Sure seems to whine about it a lot, you gotta admit.
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  #46  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
A lot Of characters who could not have been more obviously deceased by the end of MK9 (up to the point that you also fight and destroy many of their zombies near the end of the story) are alive and well in X, because people asked them politely to cease being dead.

Scorpion is only noteworthy because I guess he never tried that before in the preceding 25 years of the franchise.
Yes, but

Lots of characters were normal in sense of arcade or vs, like Liu Kang, Kitana and Kung Lao. In the story though, they have been revenant slaves to Quan Chi for 25 years.
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  #47  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:18 AM
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Nobody thought to have a real rap-sess with them in that time.
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  #48  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:44 AM
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Raiden did. He made it clear that if those zombies upset the status quo... heads would roll.

Yeah! Awesome joke for the six people on this board that cleared Mortal Kombat X Story Mode.
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  #49  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:51 AM
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I think the important thing is that when they made a movie about Mortal Kombat, they decided that Scorpion's spear was actually some weird snake thing that lived in his hand.
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  #50  
Old 03-19-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jpfriction View Post
I think the important thing is that when they made a movie about Mortal Kombat, they decided that Scorpion's spear was actually some weird snake thing that lived in his hand.
2nded but really most important thing of movie is casting of Shang Tsung and KMFDM.
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  #51  
Old 03-19-2019, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chud_666 View Post
3rded but really most important thing of movie is Johnny Cage punching Goro in the balls for breaking his sunglasses
Also I loved that like Street Fighter before it Mortal Kombat got G.I. Joe toys, so you could have Goro and the accurately* obese E. Honda pal around with Cobra Commander and Snake Eyes.

It's crazy it's been almost 27 years since Mortal Kombat debuted and nobody's even tried to make a SF vs. MK game. I mean, I get why (CERO would be far less cool with the excessive gore and Capcom wouldn't want Sub-Zero ripping Ryu's spine out or Chun-Li exploding torsos with her kicks), but having to tone the violence down didn't stop Mortal Kombat from going to war with the DC Universe.

* Many of the other figures weren't as accurate but we did get good figures of most of the bosses. Even if Vega had to borrow a claw from Sagat.
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  #52  
Old 03-19-2019, 03:55 PM
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Daisuke Ishiwatari said he'd love to make an MK game, which would be dope.
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  #53  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:00 PM
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Cassie Cage can kick a guy in the balls so hard his skeleton erupts from his head.
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  #54  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
My headcanon is that everyone in MK has Wolverines Mutant Healing Factor, matches just end because the fighters are tired.
That explains why they changed the blood to sweat for the Super NES version of the original game!
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  #55  
Old 03-20-2019, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
My headcanon is that everyone in MK has Wolverines Mutant Healing Factor, matches just end because the fighters are tired.

Also, the actual canon seems to imply that death is voluntary, and you can bring evejnthe deadest of people back to full health if you’re persuasive enough when you ask.
Mortal Kombat is basically a gorier Dragon Ball Z. Nobody seems to stay fucking dead in that series, either. Unless they're a bad guy, and even that's not a guarantee that they'll stay dead forever.
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