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Old 03-13-2019, 08:56 AM
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I posted this on another thread as a response to Peklo's mixed thoughts on Dead or Alive 6. Since the thread in question is trying to keep a positive attitude, I'll just post this here...

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I do wish fighting game designers wouldn't try so hard to outdo themselves with each new installment of the series, though. Case in point? Mortal freaking Kombat. The series was revitalized in 2011 with MK9, but it's just gotten more explicitly gory with each new entry... not the absurd "seven legs spilling out of a guy's explosion" violence that was in the original trilogy, but the kind of violence that's genuinely disturbing, like Cassie Cage posing with her victim for a Facebook photo or someone else unraveling their opponent's intestines. I watched footage of MK 11, and it's somehow gotten worse, to the point where internal shots of fists breaking bone happen more frequently, X-ray moves have been replaced with "fatal blows" which are essentially in-game fatalities, and the real fatalities freeze the action with an impaled, bloodied head hanging inches from the camera.

It's probably not productive for me to expect Mortal Kombat to be more tasteful either, but I wish it wouldn't work so hard to top itself.
I feel like the designers of Mortal Kombat ought to pump the brakes on the amount of violence in the game, which is not a popular opinion. It also probably makes me a hypocrite, since I was pulling out spines along with the rest of Generation X in 1993, but somehow, the exploding bodies from earlier games never felt as severe as what we're seeing in the series now.

Anyway. Peklo can post her own observations here if she pleases; no sense in letting them go to waste.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:07 AM
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It doesn't make you a hypocrite to have a different opinion than you did over 25 years ago, it just means you've grown and changed. That's a good thing.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:18 AM
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Most of my opinions even 10 years ago were primarily bad! I have ample documentation of this!
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:26 AM
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I'm probably not the person to go to on this, as I was absolutely a prude when it came to this stuff as a teenager. I hated Mortal Kombat. I still don't like it today. I can get past the older games, though, because as violent as they were, the lack of graphical fidelity allowed for a level of abstraction that made it somewhat palatable. I guess it's a bit like the original DOOM in that way: controversial then, but downright quaint now.

I saw a few of the fatalities from one of the entries years ago when Conan O'Brien did a segment with Rob Gronkowski and Marshawn Lynch, and hoooooo boy. I knew then the game was not for me.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:30 AM
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Yeah, I saw the E3(?) trailer for whatever this newest MK game is and I found it to be genuinely upsetting. I've never had much stomach for gore, even when obviously fake or over the top.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:36 AM
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The newer Mortal Kombat games kind of disturb me, yeah. It's almost comically over the top, but rendered with so much detail that I can't really take it.

Ninja Gaiden II (X360) and its major focus on dismemberment made me really uncomfortable, too. I vaguely remember finishing a battle early in the game and seeing ninja pieces and other carnage strewn around and questioning if I even really wanted to keep playing.

For Honor has a lot of violence and dismemberment, too. You can actually turn it off in the options, which is appreciated. Though it does weird me out a little that I can enjoy the brutality and/or finesse of the "execution" animations once I've disabled the gore. What's so appealing about violence? I think there's something exhilarating about seeing the actual... "action" of it all, but the minute you start (semi-)faithfully depicting the results of that violence it makes it too real for me.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:41 AM
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Most of my opinions even 10 years ago were primarily bad! I have ample documentation of this!
Most of your opinions yesterday were primarily bad! I have ample documentation of this!
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:49 AM
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Most of your opinions yesterday were primarily bad! I have ample documentation of this!
Loki's notes, pictured:
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:15 AM
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I used to be able to stomach JBear's bad opinions back when they were so over-the-top as to be ridiculous, but in recent years they've gotten so detailed that they're kind of hard to take.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:31 AM
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:08 AM
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A++++
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
I saw a few of the fatalities from one of the entries years ago when Conan O'Brien did a segment with Rob Gronkowski and Marshawn Lynch, and hoooooo boy. I knew then the game was not for me.
I think this is just it, right? I mean... it's not for you. That's fine. But all MK is doing is moving with the times. Uppercutting a dude's head off doesn't have the same impact it did in 1993, so now *insert graphic description of new fatality here* is what they do. If that's not for you, then I think that's totally fine! But I'm admittedly a bit of a gore hound, so I'm here for it.

And if you like the systems, but not the gore? Injustice is a thing! Very similar, no fatalities!
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
I can get past the older games, though, because as violent as they were, the lack of graphical fidelity allowed for a level of abstraction that made it somewhat palatable. I guess it's a bit like the original DOOM in that way: controversial then, but downright quaint now.
Oh yes, definitely. Much like The Itchy & Scratchy Show in the earlier years of The Simpsons, the graphic violence in the old Mortal Kombat games was more cartoonish than disgusting. Part of that was due to the medium (a motion-capped fighting game with cartoon gore effects slapped on), but as seen in some adventure games of the time (SNATCHER, Harvester, Waxworks and the Elvira games), and some "Me too" games like Strata's Time Killers and Bloodstorm, game designers could sure as hell do some disturbing shit if they wanted to.

Really about the worst it had fidelity-wise in the 2D mocap days was the bottom of The Pit being filled with severed heads and a corpse or two.

Anyway, the prevalence of disturbingly realistic gore in general nowadays is one of the reasons why I'm not that into modern AAA gaming, as well as one of the (many) reasons why I've avoided the Outlast games despite really enjoying indie horror. I get that adults (and kids and teens who want to feel like they're adults by playing games they shouldn't) are a prime target audience these days, but if more devs would dial back on the gruesome violence and brutal torture that's so prevalent in modern games I would commend them for doing so.

That said, I'm fine with Mortal Kombat just doing its thing. I've already accepted that the modern entries just aren't for me, hell I accepted it back when the series went 3D and I found it harder to stomach upon moving to less crappy 3D..
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:13 PM
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MK is rad now. It is super violent, but it's as hard to take seriously as it's ever been. Personally I find it hilarious.

But more to the point -> copiousness has ever been their aim. And not just in violence, single player content, characters, deep FGC frame data, and ease of use for noobs (the new moves give fatality like ROI with out too much skill)

But yes. I like GWAR and Horror. So YMMV
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chud_666 View Post
MK is rad now. It is super violent, but it's as hard to take seriously as it's ever been. Personally I find it hilarious.

But more to the point -> copiousness has ever been their aim. And not just in violence, single player content, characters, deep FGC frame data, and ease of use for noobs (the new moves give fatality like ROI with out too much skill)

But yes. I like GWAR and Horror. So YMMV
Precisely. The entire point is extreme excess, a grotesque exaggeration, in more ways than one. The gore dipped into the realm of bad comedy a long time ago. It reminds me of most of the later Child's Play movies, in a way, where they basically decided, "This is fucking clown shoes. Let's go all in."
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:43 PM
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Precisely. The entire point is extreme excess, a grotesque exaggeration, in more ways than one. The gore dipped into the realm of bad comedy a long time ago. It reminds me of most of the later Child's Play movies, in a way, where they basically decided, "This is fucking clown shoes. Let's go all in."
Tone is everything. I think in 1-3 they attempted being straight faced with it all, and being super serious about the mythos (which i love), but undermined it with babalities etc.

I mean it's not for everyone. But if you hate that sfv went all service, Injustice and MK have copious, satsifying single player stuff.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:45 PM
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I think this is just it, right? I mean... it's not for you. That's fine. But all MK is doing is moving with the times. Uppercutting a dude's head off doesn't have the same impact it did in 1993, so now *insert graphic description of new fatality here* is what they do. If that's not for you, then I think that's totally fine! But I'm admittedly a bit of a gore hound, so I'm here for it.

And if you like the systems, but not the gore? Injustice is a thing! Very similar, no fatalities!
Yeah, I mean, I'm acknowledging that not only is it not for me, in many ways it has never been for me. But I do think, unless you've been in for the long haul, there's a point where it's just too much. I've played some very violent and gory games, and even recently. I just finished God of War 2018, and someone mentioned Ninja Gaiden II. I cringed a bit with GoW (as I always have), but as usual push through because the gameplay was excellent. NG2 didn't bother me as much, which is probably kinda weird, but there ya go.

I have some buddies that have worked as EMTs, though, and this is the kind of stuff that shocks you the first week, but then you just get used to it. I would make a terrible doctor, which is why I'm an engineer! Fans that have been there from the start have likely gone well past the desensitization point.

And yeah, I've been meaning to get to Injustice for quite a while. It's on my list to buy some day! (I've also been looking to finally get some of the later Dead or Alive games, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.)
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:47 PM
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Yeah, I mean, I'm acknowledging that not only is it not for me, in many ways it has never been for me. But I do think, unless you've been in for the long haul, there's a point where it's just too much. I've played some very violent and gory games, and even recently. I just finished God of War 2018, and someone mentioned Ninja Gaiden II. I cringed a bit with GoW (as I always have), but as usual push through because the gameplay was excellent. NG2 didn't bother me as much, which is probably kinda weird, but there ya go.

I have some buddies that have worked as EMTs, though, and this is the kind of stuff that shocks you the first week, but then you just get used to it. I would make a terrible doctor, which is why I'm an engineer! Fans that have been there from the start have likely gone well past the desensitization point.

And yeah, I've been meaning to get to Injustice for quite a while. It's on my list to buy some day! (I've also been looking to finally get some of the later Dead or Alive games, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.)
Injustice is more like DBZ, so not as gruesome as MK.

GoW 2018 is actually restrained, by series standards.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:17 PM
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But yes. I like GWAR and Horror. So YMMV
I love GWAR and hate Mortal Kombat so ???
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:26 PM
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I love GWAR and hate Mortal Kombat so ???
You're not the man i thought you were. :P
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:18 PM
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Oh yes, definitely. Much like The Itchy & Scratchy Show in the earlier years of The Simpsons, the graphic violence in the old Mortal Kombat games was more cartoonish than disgusting. Part of that was due to the medium (a motion-capped fighting game with cartoon gore effects slapped on), but as seen in some adventure games of the time (SNATCHER, Harvester, Waxworks and the Elvira games), and some "Me too" games like Strata's Time Killers and Bloodstorm, game designers could sure as hell do some disturbing shit if they wanted to.
Wait wait wait. Elvira? Disturbing?
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:38 PM
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Wait wait wait. Elvira...games???
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:04 PM
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Wait wait wait. Elvira...games???
They were horror games made by HorrorSoft, whom also made Waxworks. The games were known for their incredibly gruesome Game Over screens.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:43 PM
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But are they as good as Ninja Gaiden?

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Old 03-13-2019, 04:20 PM
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But are they as good as Ninja Gaiden?

You be the judge of that.

DISCLAIMER: The above videos are incredibly gory. I'm aware that you probably won't take this seriously 'cuz 2/3rds of the videos are named after a voluptuous campy horror film host, but CLICK AT YOUR OWN RISK/NSFW CONTENT/YOU WERE WARNED!!
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:30 PM
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Man that first Elvira game has some dope music for the death scenes.
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Old 03-13-2019, 05:09 PM
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I doubt it matters at this point, since this thread immediately shifted to an entirely different subject, but since what I wrote about Dead or Alive 6 in another thread was tangentially invoked earlier: my thoughts on the game aren't "mixed"; I genuinely like it a lot, and talked about it in an effort to highlight why I do. The purpose of laying out the game's monetization scheme, audience response, intra-series context et al. wasn't there to prosecute the game for its failings so much as to define what the dominant discussion around it is and how it's commonly perceived and why my personal priorities don't really align with those concerns or at least don't prevent me from finding worth in the aspects of the game that do engage me. It was for contrast! Anyway, I just felt uncomfortable being misrepresented.

On Mortal Kombat: the violence is foremost in people's minds about the series, but for me it's the least pressing matter about what's historically put me off from the games. They've got their own rich history of misogyny and especially flagrant orientalism that define the series in my eyes, and it's only recently that the former's shown some signs of improvement in costume design etc. but I don't think they're ever going to be able to reconcile with the latter.
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Old 03-13-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Peklo View Post
I doubt it matters at this point, since this thread immediately shifted to an entirely different subject, but since what I wrote about Dead or Alive 6 in another thread was tangentially invoked earlier: my thoughts on the game aren't "mixed"; I genuinely like it a lot, and talked about it in an effort to highlight why I do. The purpose of laying out the game's monetization scheme, audience response, intra-series context et al. wasn't there to prosecute the game for its failings so much as to define what the dominant discussion around it is and how it's commonly perceived and why my personal priorities don't really align with those concerns or at least don't prevent me from finding worth in the aspects of the game that do engage me. It was for contrast! Anyway, I just felt uncomfortable being misrepresented.

On Mortal Kombat: the violence is foremost in people's minds about the series, but for me it's the least pressing matter about what's historically put me off from the games. They've got their own rich history of misogyny and especially flagrant orientalism that define the series in my eyes, and it's only recently that the former's shown some signs of improvement in costume design etc. but I don't think they're ever going to be able to reconcile with the latter.
Oh I’ll give you that. I also hate Asian characters played by white dudes. Mk3 subzero looks like Bruce Campbell, for instance.
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Old 03-13-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Peklo View Post
I doubt it matters at this point, since this thread immediately shifted to an entirely different subject, but since what I wrote about Dead or Alive 6 in another thread was tangentially invoked earlier: my thoughts on the game aren't "mixed"; I genuinely like it a lot, and talked about it in an effort to highlight why I do. The purpose of laying out the game's monetization scheme, audience response, intra-series context et al. wasn't there to prosecute the game for its failings so much as to define what the dominant discussion around it is and how it's commonly perceived and why my personal priorities don't really align with those concerns or at least don't prevent me from finding worth in the aspects of the game that do engage me. It was for contrast!
This was clear from your post in the Unpopular Positive Opinions thread. It was the response to your post that prompted the sign tapping.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:10 AM
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They've got their own rich history of misogyny and especially flagrant orientalism that define the series in my eyes, and it's only recently that the former's shown some signs of improvement in costume design etc. but I don't think they're ever going to be able to reconcile with the latter.
Would you mind elaborating on the point of orientalism, or providing a link to a run-down? I'm a (dumb) white guy, and I completely missed what happened in that department with Mortal Kombat.
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