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  #31  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnip View Post
Actually, that reminds me: Am I the only one who absolutely hates Floormasters? They're terrible enemies who add nothing but tedium to the series.
They're not Wizrobes or LikeLikes, so no. I'm fine with them.
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  #32  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnip View Post
Actually, that reminds me: Am I the only one who absolutely hates Floormasters? They're terrible enemies who add nothing but tedium to the series.
They're bad, but I don't think they're used as often as they once were anyway. In 3D Zeldas, you really only see them for a room or two of a dungeon, as opposed to LttP, where they were omnipresent throughout a full dungeon (give or take a couple of outdoor segments).
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Destil View Post
They're not Wizrobes or LikeLikes, so no. I'm fine with them.
Wizrobes and LikeLikes are annoying, but their raison d'etre isn't "Haha now you have to go through the dungeon again sucker!!!"
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:47 PM
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I got your back Turnip. Wall/Floormasters are the most annoying thing. Their inclusion in Link to the Past is a blemish on an otherwise great game, but at least they're only in one (maybe two?) dungeon.
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:49 PM
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I like floormasters and likelikes because they add danger.
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu View Post
And if this game takes place in the Zelda timeline after Link returns to the past in Ocarina of Time, and foils Ganondorf's plans to usurp the throne by warning the Royal Family of his betrayal, then how come the Triforce is still split up in this game? How does Ganondorf have the Triforce of Power if he apparently never got into the Sacred Realm/past the Door of Time in the first place??
The person narrating the big Ganondorf backstory scene says something like, "Hey, when you're chosen by the gods, you're chosen by the gods." Which is another way of saying there is no explanation.
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Daikaiju View Post
I thoroughly enjoyed WW myself.

What missing dungeons?
In case that was a serious question, here goes.

This image I did a while back (and still haven't updated for SS) lays out the big picture of dungeon progression in the console Zeldas. LttP and OoT together established the basic formula of:

intro -> 3 "tutorial" dungeons -> transition -> main dungeons -> resolution

WW sets up to have 3 starter dungeons, correspond to the forest/fire/water trio that was established in OoT, but then when you get to where the water dungeon should be, you just get handed the relevant MacGuffin in a cutscene. That is the most obvious "missing" dungeon.

After the transition, WW only has two "main" dungeons - the fewest of any Zelda built on this template. It is harder to say that there is really a "missing" dungeon there, but the Triumph Forks give the impression that things were rushed. My guess is that there were intended to be three starter and three main dungeons.

To be clear, I don't think that having fewer dungeons is a bad thing - MM is my favorite Zelda, after all. Furthermore, the intro and transition steps in WW are far meatier dungeons than in some is the other games.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnip View Post
Wizrobes and LikeLikes are annoying, but their raison d'etre isn't "Haha now you have to go through the dungeon again sucker!!!"
Oh, you poor baby. You have to walk through a dungeon again.

After getting my shield eaten and then getting magiced to death because I can't block, I have to walk through a dungeon again, too. Only starting with 3 hearts and possibly having to go out and grind up the rupies to buy a replacement shield.

Zelda 1 has short dungeons, so it's not that big a deal. And the dungeon they show up in LttP has several entrances, so it never throws you that far back. They are annoying in OoT, but I'm pretty sure there's at least one in the Forest Temple that's basically there as a shortcut back to the boss at the end.
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tangent Vector View Post
After the transition, WW only has two "main" dungeons - the fewest of any Zelda built on this template. It is harder to say that there is really a "missing" dungeon there, but the Triumph Forks give the impression that things were rushed. My guess is that there were intended to be three starter and three main dungeons.
I'm guessing your two main dungeons are the Earth and Wind Temples, in which case you're forgetting the Tower of the Gods. There's also the Forbidden Fortress and Ganon's Tower.

But the "blown up island" is a good example of a missing dungeon, as well as the Ghost Ship. There's a lot of build up to the Ghost Ship, only to find that... it's completely generic and boring inside! What the hey?
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu View Post
I'm guessing your two main dungeons are the Earth and Wind Temples, in which case you're forgetting the Tower of the Gods. There's also the Forbidden Fortress and Ganon's Tower.
In my schema the Forbidden Fortress, Tower of the Gods, and Ganon's Tower are the intro/call to action, transition, and resolution respectively. They correspond to Hyrule Castle, Hyrule Castle Tower, and Ganon's Tower in LttP.

Like I said, the WW versions of all these are "meatier" than their equivalents in some of the other games, but from a structural standpoint they aren't part of the main dungeon cycle.
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  #41  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:53 PM
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I'm sorry, I failed to check your chart before replying.

But still, Ghost Shiiiiiip! Can you imagine how cool that could have been? Actually, maybe that's why they made a point to include one in Phantom Hourglass.
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  #42  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:53 PM
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The volcanic island where you get the Power Bracelets and the icy island where you get the Iron Boots were also meant to be full-fledged dungeons.
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  #43  
Old 07-23-2012, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Loki
Spirit Princess
Uh??? Typing on like four hours of sleep. Don't know where this came from, but I meant Skyword Sword.

She took all the horses!!
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  #44  
Old 07-23-2012, 11:50 PM
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When Twilight Princess was still the newest Zelda game, I would say that there needed to be a Zelda with a train in it. I neglected to consider that trains mean something different to the Japanese than to Americans.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Spirit Tracks could've been good overall instead of just having good dungeons, and it's my fault.
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  #45  
Old 07-24-2012, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
When Twilight Princess was still the newest Zelda game, I would say that there needed to be a Zelda with a train in it. I neglected to consider that trains mean something different to the Japanese than to Americans.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Spirit Tracks could've been good overall instead of just having good dungeons, and it's my fault.
Hey, at least the game gave us an alternate definition for "rail shooter."

Really, it's a sad state of affairs when a train in a Zelda game ends up being a more linear boat prone to constant enemy assaults and cheap deaths from kamikaze trains pincering you like ghosts cornering Pac-Man in a maze. My game ended at the first part of the final area 'cuz of those damn trains.

Oh yeah, and the whole Ganon train and train spirits and train tower thing was pretty ridiculous too, I guess. Grrrrr blowing tools...
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  #46  
Old 07-24-2012, 01:48 AM
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I still love the original Zelda the most. Even with all its obvious flaws, it hits a sweet spot for freeform adventuring. You can walk up to Death Mountain from the start of the game, get the power bracelet, and warp all over the place before you beat a single dungeon. Or head to level six and grab the magic wand. Or hunt down the skeleton key and laugh every time you open a door. I wish the series had evolved to be about that stuff and less about completing one rote puzzle after another.

On most days I'd say that Link to the Past is the best one. Although I imagine Ocarina of Time on a 3DS XL has a chance to surpass it. I spent a little time with the game on a friend's 3DS and it's awesome to behold without the N64's ugliness and low frame rate.
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  #47  
Old 07-24-2012, 02:35 AM
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The Legend of Zelda's great for how open it is, but in retrospect I found its toolset very lacking. For most of the game, your full health sword beam is a better projectile weapon than the bow. The rod is crappier than both, and it gets an upgrade that makes it worse. The bait and raft are the ancestors of fascinating little to no utility tools of future Zeldas like the Spinner and Dominion Rod. The blue candle is a piece of shit but you buy it anyway because the magic variant's under a pond for most of the game.

Link to the Past has a lot of bloat in its toolset, but aside from the Magic Pearl's passive "not turning you into a bunny in the Dark World as long as you don't get hit by glowy rings" function, I can't really name any tool offhand that's as bad as or worse than the NES Zelda's worst. Even as MP-munching as they are, the medallions still have their use as screen burning/freezing/shaking into bags of crap attacks.

Two magic-leeching invincibility tools are kinda overkill, though. Do we really need the Cane of Byrna and the Magic Cape?
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  #48  
Old 07-24-2012, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MetManMas View Post
For most of the game, your full health sword beam is a better projectile weapon than the bow.
Ah, but how often does the average player actually have all his hearts?

Spot on about the wand and blue candle, though.
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  #49  
Old 07-24-2012, 04:07 AM
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From the "Not Worth Its Own Thread" thread:

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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
In a discussion of future hypothetical Zelda titles for the WiiU, Aonuma mentioned that they would almost certainly have Skyward Sword-style motion controls because it had been done once and thus needed to be in all future Zelda games. This seems, to me, very representative of the series' problems. The developers refuse to remove anything from the formula, so every installment gets more and more bloated... And less and less interesting. Why did Skyward Sword have a musical instrument? A boat segment? An ending where every minor character dies in an attempt to be "tragic" and "deep"? Because these things had been done once before, and thus had to be in the new game, no matter how annoying, out-of-place, or poorly-executed.
I was just glad SS didn't go with the old "get three MacGuffins, get the Master Sword, find x more MacGuffins, finish game" trope. I mean, they sort of did, but somehow the way it did it felt different, like the flow was better. No "now this is where the REAL game begins" type of feeling.

Quote:
The Zelda team needs to start killing sacred cows.
Yeah! Like when they made Zelda II!

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Originally Posted by Tangent Vector View Post
Cue the inevitable (and valid) point that the fans of any long-running series don't actually want change, no matter how much they say they do.
...which is actually probably why they don't kill those cows any more. And it wasn't even a long-running series yet. Heck, at two games, I'm not even sure if that's technically a series...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Twilight Princess served its purpose, in letting me hack my Wii to play everything else. I wouldn't recommend it as a GAME, however.
That and Skyward are my favorite 3D Zelda games.

And from here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
I still love the original Zelda the most. Even with all its obvious flaws, it hits a sweet spot for freeform adventuring. You can walk up to Death Mountain from the start of the game, get the power bracelet, and warp all over the place before you beat a single dungeon. Or head to level six and grab the magic wand. Or hunt down the skeleton key and laugh every time you open a door. I wish the series had evolved to be about that stuff and less about completing one rote puzzle after another.
This. So much this. I like some puzzles, but I feel like they're overdoing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetManMas View Post
The rod is crappier than both, and it gets an upgrade that makes it worse.
...or you can just not get the book.

But really, does any Zelda game have a 100% perfect item set?
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  #50  
Old 07-24-2012, 04:22 AM
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I just had a perfect run of Zelda II ruined by Medusa Heads those chicken head things. It's great when they spawn in mid-jump over a pit. EURGH
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  #51  
Old 07-24-2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by LBD_Nytetrayn View Post
Yeah! Like when they made Zelda II!
Come now.
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  #52  
Old 07-24-2012, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
When Twilight Princess was still the newest Zelda game, I would say that there needed to be a Zelda with a train in it. I neglected to consider that trains mean something different to the Japanese than to Americans.
Well if to the Japanese trains mean how you get from one place to another, then what exactly do they mean to us?
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  #53  
Old 07-24-2012, 07:04 AM
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The spirit of Objectivism.
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  #54  
Old 07-24-2012, 07:40 AM
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The two "official" missing dungeons in Wind Waker are Ice Island and Fire Island, I think. That still doesn't excuse not having a dungeon for the blue Pearl though.

When I first got to the Triforce Pieces segment in that game, I remember thinking "Awesome, this is where the game really gets going now!" Imagine my surprise when it turned out to be a very expensive treasure hunt where instead of getting the actual Triforce pieces, you get a chart that leads you to a random spot in the ocean. A chart. Which means the shards of the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ARTIFACT IN ZELDA HISTORY are essentially scattered across the overworld in spots where any lucky schmoe might be able to pick one up.

I also felt cheated when the visit to Old Hyrule turned out to be a jolly stroll down the street from the Castle to Ganon's Tower. That amazing skybox with the spire-like mountains and the wonderful green fields are nothing more than filler.
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  #55  
Old 07-24-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dart Zaidyer View Post
I also felt cheated when the visit to Old Hyrule turned out to be a jolly stroll down the street from the Castle to Ganon's Tower. That amazing skybox with the spire-like mountains and the wonderful green fields are nothing more than filler.
That part really bothered me. Like a lot.
The fight with Ganondorf saved it from being a game that i just outright hated though.
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  #56  
Old 07-24-2012, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
Another thing to consider is that you weren't meant to discover everything in LoZ. The average player will find a few cool things, and share what he learns with other players. Knowledge of the game builds up through a bunch of players working at it together.
So the original LoZ was the first Demon's Souls?

Disclaimer for what is about to be said: I haven't played the Game Boy, GBC, GBA, or whatever other platforms Zelda games exist on. I will also say something totally ridiculous in this post.

I really dig the original LoZ. Yeah, in retrospect, it's classic Nintendo "this shit is too hard for the modern gamer", at least in the sense that some of the puzzles are very cryptic. But the game is still playable! It's a great game.

A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time: it may be a tie between these two as my favorite Zelda game. I probably lean towards Ocarina. But holy hell, whoever said they haven't played A Link to the Past yet, please do yourself a favor and change that immediately.

Those are really the only three Zelda games I like. WW was far too easy, the sailing, while a great concept had fucking terrible execution, and Twilight Princess is so damn boring that after one time through the game you never need to look at it again. I didn't even bother with Skyward Sword (Spirit Princess?) I just plain didn't enjoy Majora's Mask. Neat concept, frustrating as hell to play.

Zelda II does not make the "good" list on account of how fucking hard the game is. I don't mind the total style change! It's neat! But giving you lives and then booting you back to the beginning of the game when you lose your lives!? Come on!! And whoever is about to tell me Zelda II is easy, scram. I don't want to hear that. Zelda II is not easy. You're a space alien.

Other than that, the 3DO Zelda games are top competitors for best in the series.
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  #57  
Old 07-24-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetManMas View Post
The Legend of Zelda's great for how open it is, but in retrospect I found its toolset very lacking. For most of the game, your full health sword beam is a better projectile weapon than the bow. The rod is crappier than both, and it gets an upgrade that makes it worse. The bait and raft are the ancestors of fascinating little to no utility tools of future Zeldas like the Spinner and Dominion Rod. The blue candle is a piece of shit but you buy it anyway because the magic variant's under a pond for most of the game.

Link to the Past has a lot of bloat in its toolset, but aside from the Magic Pearl's passive "not turning you into a bunny in the Dark World as long as you don't get hit by glowy rings" function, I can't really name any tool offhand that's as bad as or worse than the NES Zelda's worst. Even as MP-munching as they are, the medallions still have their use as screen burning/freezing/shaking into bags of crap attacks.

Two magic-leeching invincibility tools are kinda overkill, though. Do we really need the Cane of Byrna and the Magic Cape?
I like LttP's toolset! I appreciated that there were a lot of items in there that were essentially just fun toys rather than "this is the item you use to solve this dungeon and beat its boss." The magic powder can turn some enemies into silly things, the ice rod can freeze things and the magic cape makes you invisible. The bombos spell has no purpose other than to just kill everything on screen. These things have no practical application, they're just there to be cool.

The Cane of Somaria is the awesome kind of "think outside the box" item that every Zelda game should have. You can use it to solve all kinds of puzzles that would be a pain otherwise if you're clever about how you use it. I always grab it before the Ice Palace to avoid having to do that one puzzle (You know the one.)

I really liked that the world was your oyster in LttP. The light world kind of has you on rails since its teaching you the game but there's still a lot of places off the beaten path you can check out and pick up cool things like the ice rod or a magic bee if you feel like it. In the Dark World you're completely off the rails and you're only limited by what you as a player can discover and accomplish. I love doing dungeons 3 and 4 before 2 just to feel like I'm getting away with something. And the game lets you do this! You don't need the hookshot from Dungeon 2 to clear either one! But when you get to Dungeon 6, you can't get out of the first room without it, because you need the hookshot inside. The game is nice about warning you about what items you need to clear the dungeon before you get too far in.

In the modern games you'd never find the Cane of Somaria before doing dungeon 5, because dungeon 6 wouldn't even be open to you until watching the appropriate cutscene that's only available after dungeon 5, etc.

Last edited by Solitayre; 07-24-2012 at 11:41 AM.
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  #58  
Old 07-24-2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Sir Sly Ry View Post
Other than that, the 3DO Zelda games are top competitors for best in the series.
(cough) CD-i (cough)

Someone made the argument that the first Legend of Zelda was an early social game, and I'd like to hear other opinions on this. Seems like people were leaning a lot harder on the Nintendo game counselors than their friends for hints and strategies.
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  #59  
Old 07-24-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
(cough) CD-i (cough)
Well there you go, my ridiculous thing in my post is now twice as ridiculous.

Seriously dude, play A Link to the Past. Don't wait, try today!
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  #60  
Old 07-24-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solitayre View Post
I like LttP's toolset! I appreciated that there were a lot of items in there that were essentially just fun toys rather than "this is the item you use to solve this dungeon and beat its boss." The magic powder can turn some enemies into silly things, the ice rod can freeze things and the magic cape makes you invisible. The bombos spell has no purpose other than to just kill everything on screen. These things have no practical application, they're just there to be cool.
I totally agree -- I love that there are multiple ways to play LttP. When you take into account how quick the game's pace is, it has such great replay value.
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