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  #1  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:40 PM
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Arrow Legend of Zelda Discussion: the Zelda thread is your...

Hey, we now have a general Zelda discussion thread! Somehow we managed to avoid having one all this time.

Thread guidelines: If you want to talk about any Zelda game you may post it here, linking or quoting your post from another thread if you like.

We have lots of game specific threads (and by all means we can continue to create them) but to me at least they seem better suited for discussion leading up to and surrounding new releases. This thread, on the other hand, you don't ever have to feel uncomfortable bumping. We can also use this thread as a thread hub if you want to create/spin off more Zelda threads outside this one.

~~~



List of our other Zelda threads:
Ongoing list... If you ever wanted to read more about Zelda then here you go:

Game centric threads:
Your Breath of the Wild Adventure (spoilers)
Cool things are in Breath of the Wild (spoilers)
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (spoiler free)
It is time to replay every Zelda game.
Dawn of The Final Day...in 3D: Majora's Mask 3DS is real!
Hyrule Warriors! Big battle brawler!
Link to the Past 2 (3DS)
Ten Years of Bitching About Graphics: Wind Waker HD
E3 2010 Zelda Thread of Skyward Swords and 3D Ocarinas
No Longer a Secret - Zelda: Spirit Tracks!
Phantom Hourglass is out today
My (Pieces of) Heart Will Go On - Twilight Princess Forever Thread
LTTP: The Legend of Zelda - LTTP! (GBA) + Minish Cap
LttP: Minish Cap

Fun Clubs:
Piece of Heart: A Link To The Past
Piece of Heart: Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
Piece of Heart: Phantom Hourglass
Piece of Heart: Twilight Princess
Piece of Heart: The Minish Cap
Piece of Heart: Oracle of Ages/Seasons
Piece of Heart: The Wind Waker
Piece of Heart: Link's Awakening
Piece of Heart: Majora's Mask
Piece of Heart: NES Legend of Zelda
Piece of Heart: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

More Threads:
"Survival Mode sounds boring": discuss thoughts on Zelda hard modes
Zelda Editorial: Uncovering Your Quest (analysis of Zelda 1's map design)
What is the best Legend of Zelda
Zelda Year 25: Where were you when OoT came out?
"The Last Traditional Zelda..." So then what?
Zelda needs to learn from GTA
Zelda Doesn't Always Work
Jesus Christ at the Stealth shoehorning in Zelda games.
Week of discoveries continues: Link's Awakening connection.
Zelda II a poorly worded rebuttal.
The Truth about Auto-Jump in Zelda

More Discussions:
The "Not worth its own thread" thread starts with post #37465 by Chu (but it really gets going 3 pages later) about storytelling in Twilight Princess, and whether the Twilight was ever an impending threat. Transitions into the topic of tradition and bloat in modern Zelda.



~~~

Wondering about the thread title? Kishi and Brickroad explain!

Last edited by dosboot; 03-18-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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  #2  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:57 PM
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Cool Concept Art for The Legend of Zelda. It seems appropriate for this thread as well!
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:22 PM
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I didn't feel the series reached its full potential until it went 3D. The sense of adventure is more fully realized when you can look in all directions and see the monsters towering above you. I've why I liked Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker the best. I mean, what would you rather have... a teeny little sprite holding a new item over his head or a character in three dimensions rummaging through a shining treasure chest and triumphantly holding an item, with the camera at a dynamic angle? It makes a huge difference.

I'll admit, Powerpuff Girls Link didn't do much for me when I first played Wind Waker, but he grew on me. The only serious issues with the game were the stealth sequence at the beginning (GAHHH!!!), the monotonous sailing in the middle, and having to raise a king's ransom in gold for Tingle to show you the location of the REAL Triforce pieces near the end. It was pretty obvious that Nintendo was trying to artificially lengthen the game at that point. Everything else was terrific, though.

Also, I really enjoyed Link's Crossbow Training. There, I said it. The graphics were arguably better than in Twilight Princess and I loved the arcade-style shoot 'em up action. There's nothing wrong with a little brain stem gaming from time to time, and LCT is among the best you'll find on the Wii.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:41 PM
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I'm with the people who feel the series has stagnated. Wind Waker with the claw rope and hook shot and missing dungeons and lack-luster dungeons pushed the limit, and Twilight Princess was the last straw. Didn't bother with Spirit Princess and have no desire to.

That said, I thought Spirit Tracks was pretty good! I understand the complaints with the train parts, but they didn't bother me, and the dungeons were the best the series has seen in a long time.

I hope the bird parts of Spirit Princess weren't the realization of Biplane Zelda because god-damn I want to see Biplane Zelda!
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
I mean, what would you rather have... a teeny little sprite holding a new item over his head or a character in three dimensions rummaging through a shining treasure chest and triumphantly holding an item, with the camera at a dynamic angle?
Uh... the sprite?

I have admittedly not clocked too much time on 3D Zeldas, but I really think the combat suffers in 3D.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:50 PM
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I see the stagnation argument, but my real beef with modern Zelda is it simply no longer does the things that it used to do that I enjoyed. I like exploring spooky dungeons and figuring stuff out, not waving my arms around and fumbling my way through "deep, immersive combat".

This isn't a 2d vs. 3d argument. Ocarina was everything great about oldschool Zelda, plus polygons. It was Wind Waker that started changing things in the wrong direction, and then Twilight Princess which cinched it: the series just isn't my bag no more.

That said? I'm one of the proud few who solved the original Legend of Zelda without a guide or walkthrough. Finished that bitch with nothin' but elbow grease and schoolyard wisdom. Booya.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:55 PM
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I'm assuming by now everyone has seen this, the most comprehensive and stunningly beautiful piece of fan art around? Just looking at it, taking it all in and slowly scrolling down, makes me want to play some Zelda.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:01 PM
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After giving it some thought, I'm probably more of a fan of Wind Waker for its general atmosphere than its specific gameplay. I also suppose it clicked more strongly for me than some because my first image of Link was of him on a boat.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:11 PM
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While I can appreciate not wanting to deal with motion controlled sword fighting to an extent, Skyward Sword has some of the best puzzle and dungeon design of the series.

I'd argue that the sword fights can also be thought of as puzzles as well, but that argument goes out the window in the late game when there are room full of sword based enemies thrown at you.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:21 PM
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For me, I felt that WW was 3/4 of a pretty good Zelda game, Twilight Princess was the last great one (immediately = vast minority), the DS games ate dodongos and Skyward Sword is a colossal screw up of epic proportions.

I'm also like the only guy who adores Okami-Den.
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  #11  
Old 07-23-2012, 08:26 PM
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You don't get the option to play Skyward Sword with a classic controller, do you? At least Twilight Princess on the Cube let you use a joypad...

Sorry, but I think 3D brings a sense of wonder to the series that it was missing in its previous installments. Having said that, I never played the Super NES game or its GameBoy cousin, so they might have found a way to dwarf the player with sprawling playfields without polygons.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
You don't get the option to play Skyward Sword with a classic controller, do you? At least Twilight Princess on the Cube let you use a joypad...

Sorry, but I think 3D brings a sense of wonder to the series that it was missing in its previous installments. Having said that, I never played the Super NES game or its GameBoy cousin, so they might have found a way to dwarf the player with sprawling playfields without polygons.
Yes. Yes they did.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Sorry, but I think 3D brings a sense of wonder to the series that it was missing in its previous installments. Having said that, I never played the Super NES game or its GameBoy cousin, so they might have found a way to dwarf the player with sprawling playfields without polygons.
I don't know about "dwarfing the player" (especially not the GB game), but they managed to create some truly imaginative spaces and design some really perplexing exploration puzzles. You're right, though, that they never actually create the sense of place that the 3d games do. Ocarina was the first console game to truly do that.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:40 PM
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I loved Skyward Sword and had a great time with Twilight Princess! The only two "recent" Zelda games I didn't enjoy were Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:43 PM
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Oh boy, an argument over which Zelda is the worst one! Those are always fun!


Wind Waker feels unfinished, but I still think it's my favourite of the games. There's so much polish put into what is there that I can't help but feel a little guilty for harshing on what isn't. I'd much rather have three quarters of an excellent game than a complete "pretty good game" like Twilight Princess or a mediocre game stretched well beyond its limit like Skyward Sword.









also, because I guess nobody else is going to mention it

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Spirit Princess

loki, what the hell
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teg View Post
loki, what the hell
Loki gets a free pass to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants Skyward Sword to Spirit Princess now it'll be Spirit Princess.

Ok, seriously, that really did baffle me.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:49 PM
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The locations were much more tangible in the 3D games, especially in the dungeons. You look around you and you feel in awe of your surroundings... pillars stretch up to the sky and passageways are partially concealed by shadow, leaving you nervous about what might lurk inside them. Then there are the bosses, which are so large you have to look upward to see them in their full terrifying glory. It makes a difference. The 2D games (the ones I've played, anyway) just seem so static by comparison.

Now I'm normally not an advocate of 3D gaming, because it tends to make platforming a chore, but this is Zelda. Platforming is a rarity- if it happens at all- with exploration and puzzle solving pushed to the forefront. If you're going to be scouring the countryside for trinkets, the game had better go to great lengths to make you feel like you're there, or the urgency of the quest is lost, reduced to so much pixel hunting. I think that's what separates new Zelda from the early games on the NES... immersion.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:50 PM
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There is no Zelda game I hate. In the end they are still quality products with a lot to offer, despite their flaws!

Re: 3D Zeldas

Ocarina of Time is my favorite, with Majora's Mask a close second.

Wind Waker is artificially stretched out too long and the missing dungeons are a huge disappointment, but it's a beautiful-looking game. Still wish there were more developed islands, though. I'd have liked to see more towns like Dragon Roost and Windfall. It also takes too long to get between islands. The dungeons aren't bad, but I also don't remember them being as fun as the other games'. Could just be me? Beautiful, beautiful game, though!

Despite what I've said in "not worth its own thread", I still enjoy Twilight Princess. There are a lot of things I like about it, but in the end, I feel like it needed more polish. Or at least an editor! What the hell, story?

Skyward Sword is FULL of braindead flaws (too repetitive, Fi, that horrible glitch, Fi) but I was one of those people who learned how the swordplay worked quickly and had a blast. The fourth dungeon and its boss are perfect. I also think the art design hit a sweet spot between Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, and ended up with something perfect for Zelda. It looks the most like a 3D version of A Link to the Past to me. Lastly, <3 Mogmas
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:51 PM
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I loved the NES games even if I have yet to actually beat Zelda II.

My brother actually played Zelda 1 for the first time last month. I laughed every time he came to look up a guide on GameFAQs. Then I asked him what level he was on.

"Level Six."

"Oh man... oh fuck. Skip that crap and go beat Level Seven instead. You'll thank me."

Two days later, my mom was visiting. "Hey mom, Cody's playing the worst dungeon in Zelda 1."

Without missing a beat: "Those damn wizards, right?"

My mom totally beat Zelda 1 before I did. She even drew her own maps.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:51 PM
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The thing about Zelda is each one is intended to be played by people who've never played any of the others. There are callbacks to previous games but even the most conspicuous ones are gravy and satisfactorily explained by context.

Therefore, in order to derive maximum enjoyment out of a Zelda game, you've got to get in the mindset of not trying to compare it to any of the others. If you start up a new Zelda hoping for a palate cleanser from all the little things that bugged you about the last one, then you're headed for disappointment; your own expectations will betray you.

This is general advice that is applicable to all media, but is most useful in the case of a long-running series with deliberate attempts at maintaining design continuity.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:56 PM
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The only Zelda game I've finished is Twilight Princess, and I absolutely love that damn game.

I've tried to play The Wind Waker on numerous occasions and I find it insufferably boring in spite of finding it visually charming.

The DS titles are borderline unplayable, at least to me. As was Skyward Sword. Can't handle that much Waggle or Tap.

I got to play a friend's copy of Ocarina of Time last year, and it seemed absolutely awesome! It's hard to believe that it's as old as it is when it contains small, amazing details like cutting a wooden sign in half vertically, and then being able to cut the remaining half again horizontally. The pieces of wood even float in the water! O_O Definitely the first 3DS game I'll be picking up when I get the XL next month!

I really, really hope Nintendo announces a Majora's Mask 3D soon, because I really want to play that as well.

Also, I need to get A Link to the Past for my GBA. Can you tell I'm basically a Zelda virgin?
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:01 PM
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I just don't get the magic hold Zelda I has on players. It just seemed off-puttingly cryptic to me, with some really weird requirements for finding hidden items and the entrance to dungeons. Maybe I was missing the clues left for me, but I found myself doing a lot of wandering and not making a lot of progress. On top of that... what kind of fucking clue is "GRUMBLE GRUMBLE?"
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:04 PM
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For me, 3D Zelda was an acquired taste. As immersive as a polygonal game can be, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were very rough around the edges. For me, that sense of wonder was more often than not replaced by a sense of frustration from overlooking a switch or vital treasure chest off in some easily missed corner or hole, and everything looks all slow and blurry.

I do adore the wonderfully whacked out NPC designs in the Nintendo 64 games, though. Some of the people you meet can be spookier than any Redead is.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
I just don't get the magic hold Zelda I has on players. It just seemed off-puttingly cryptic to me, with some really weird requirements for finding hidden items and the entrance to dungeons. Maybe I was missing the clues left for me, but I found myself doing a lot of wandering and not making a lot of progress. On top of that... what kind of fucking clue is "GRUMBLE GRUMBLE?"
The Legend of Zelda came out in an era where you were expected to 1) experiment a lot, 2) draw your own maps and 3) read the instruction manual. No modern gamer could possibly complete it without a guide.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:14 PM
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I thoroughly enjoyed WW myself.

What missing dungeons?
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
The Legend of Zelda came out in an era where you were expected to 1) experiment a lot, 2) draw your own maps and 3) read the instruction manual. No modern gamer could possibly complete it without a guide.
I know I wouldn't attempt it, but I'm an arcade gamer at heart. I get impatient with puzzles pretty quickly, especially if I haven't been told about them in advance.

On the other hand, I know someone who's attempting to beat the similarly perplexing La Mulana with NO hints whatsoever, going so far as to get very upset if anyone tries to help her. She's made surprising progress and seems to be enjoying herself, but I would never, never put myself through that kind of hell.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:19 PM
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God. Redeads.

I don't know whether it was deliberate or whether it was the happy side-effect of the N64's natural limitations, but the OoT versions of those damn things were the stuff of nightmares. The later versions are still alarming and deadly, but they lack that certain je ne sais quoi.

The Floormasters, though? They just get freakier and freakier, even though they seem to have been toned down a lot over the years.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
The Legend of Zelda came out in an era where you were expected to 1) experiment a lot, 2) draw your own maps and 3) read the instruction manual. No modern gamer could possibly complete it without a guide.
Well, the auto-map is pretty good for the dungeons, and the overworld isn't so convoluted you'd need a map, though it helps.

I brought that damn manual to school and read it during recess, though.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:22 PM
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Actually, that reminds me: Am I the only one who absolutely hates Floormasters? They're terrible enemies who add nothing but tedium to the series.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:28 PM
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Doesn't La Mulana literally have a level called Hell?

Another thing to consider is that you weren't meant to discover everything in LoZ. The average player will find a few cool things, and share what he learns with other players. Knowledge of the game builds up through a bunch of players working at it together.

And in the first quest at least, quest-important stuff doesn't tend to be that obscure. People like to harp on, say, the Level 8 entrance... but come on. It's under a weird tree that is blocking a path. It's practically begging to be burned. Spectacle Rock is a little tougher, but it's mentioned by name, and again, located in a spot that you're pretty likely to try bombing.

The game is pretty inscrutable, to be sure, but for any individual puzzle or secret I can see the idea behind how a player might discover it. Very little of the game is hidden behind "literally try burning every tree".

The blue candle is still bullshit, though. We knew that even as kids.
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