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  #25981  
Old 06-13-2017, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
None of them are good, but all of them seem like they should be.

3 is heart-breaking
It's funny you use that phrase.

When I was a Wee Goggle Bob, I had saved up my meager $2 a month allowance, and accumulated a whole ten bucks. I went to my local video rental store (8 Days a Week Video), and decided I would buy one of the used videogames valued at ten dollars. I had a choice between Mega Man 4 and Wizards and Warriors 3. I had already played and beaten Mega Man 4 on a rental, so I decided to buy W&W3, a game I had never played and looked interesting with its new "play as a wizard, nobleman, or thief" gameplay. So I spent five months allowance on Wizards and Warriors 3.

I got home, and I played W&W3 for the first time. After about an hour of playing the game, I ran upstairs to my mother weeping, because I had bought the wrong game.
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  #25982  
Old 06-13-2017, 05:54 PM
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Two dollars a MONTH? Yikes, thems some tight purse strings on your parents.
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  #25983  
Old 06-13-2017, 09:57 PM
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So what happened after that?
Did you get to return W&W3?
Did you ever get a copy of Mega Man 4??
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  #25984  
Old 06-14-2017, 04:51 AM
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The happy ending: He learned how to change into a thief from W&W3, and was then able to steal the used copy of MM4!

W&W is a series that feels like it really was made for emulators, like taosterman said. They're fun when you don't have to worry about a game over.
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  #25985  
Old 06-14-2017, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Two dollars a MONTH? Yikes, thems some tight purse strings on your parents.
An allowance? Free money, just for being a child? Such luxury! Are there no lawns to mow? No lemonades to stand? And the union workhouses, are they still in operation?
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  #25986  
Old 06-14-2017, 07:06 AM
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I was just trying to note exactly how bad W&W3 is! But to answer various questions:

1. Yes, $2 was a small amount, but I was also granted a "free" videogame rental every two weeks, and I got a new toy if I so much as sneezed in the direction of my grandmother. Also, my grandfather would routinely stand behind me at the arcade and grant me enough quarters to beat Shredder in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, so it's not like I needed much more than that. I suppose the point of the allowance was not so much the amount itself, but that I could learn how to save up for something "big".

2. There was no happy ending. While I did eventually learn to play (and beat!) W&W3 out of sheer inertia, I was stuck with W&W3 for the rest of my days. My mother refused to let me return the game, because it was a valuable lesson about not spending your hard earned money on an unknown.

3. I did eventually buy a copy of Mega Man 4 weeeeell after. Maybe thanks to childhood trauma, I want to say it was the last NES Mega Man game I "collected" (or maybe because I always remembered it as being good, but not great).

4. Coda! Not terribly long ago, my mother and I were randomly talking about child rearing and various things you can do as a parent. She casually said, "Remember that time you cried about buying the wrong videogame?" as if this was something I could ever forget. I responded with an offhand, "Yes." She continued, and pointed out that that was a valuable lesson for wee Goggle Bob to learn... and the main reason it happened was she didn't feel like driving the five minutes back to the video store on a potentially high-traffic weekend for a return. "Parenting is like that sometimes, you make a moral out of being lazy," she commented.

They f%&@ you up, your mum and dad.
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  #25987  
Old 06-20-2017, 01:16 AM
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I just beat Ys I, the turbo CD version. There is so much I love about this game, but... how did anyone beat it without emulators/save states/etc? The bosses are insanely hard and require a precision the controls just don't give you, the normal enemies are manageable until THEY'RE NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, and some of the backtracking is completely obtuse.

I loved the sights and the sounds, and even warmed up to the "walk into enemies" to kill them in relatively short order, but the moments when it doesn't work really shine forth.

Still, I'm glad I played through it, and I'm hoping that Book II will be slightly better - at the very least, I hope the bosses are a little more designed.

Also: hey! The gripe thread was on page 5 of the forums!

Look at us, being positive and such.
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  #25988  
Old 06-20-2017, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoggleBob View Post
I was just trying to note exactly how bad W&W3 is! But to answer various questions:

1. Yes, $2 was a small amount, but I was also granted a "free" videogame rental every two weeks, and I got a new toy if I so much as sneezed in the direction of my grandmother. Also, my grandfather would routinely stand behind me at the arcade and grant me enough quarters to beat Shredder in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, so it's not like I needed much more than that. I suppose the point of the allowance was not so much the amount itself, but that I could learn how to save up for something "big".

2. There was no happy ending. While I did eventually learn to play (and beat!) W&W3 out of sheer inertia, I was stuck with W&W3 for the rest of my days. My mother refused to let me return the game, because it was a valuable lesson about not spending your hard earned money on an unknown.

3. I did eventually buy a copy of Mega Man 4 weeeeell after. Maybe thanks to childhood trauma, I want to say it was the last NES Mega Man game I "collected" (or maybe because I always remembered it as being good, but not great).

4. Coda! Not terribly long ago, my mother and I were randomly talking about child rearing and various things you can do as a parent. She casually said, "Remember that time you cried about buying the wrong videogame?" as if this was something I could ever forget. I responded with an offhand, "Yes." She continued, and pointed out that that was a valuable lesson for wee Goggle Bob to learn... and the main reason it happened was she didn't feel like driving the five minutes back to the video store on a potentially high-traffic weekend for a return. "Parenting is like that sometimes, you make a moral out of being lazy," she commented.

They f%&@ you up, your mum and dad.
So I take it Wizards & Warriors III should make for a fun episode when the Random R.O.B. Rotation summons it out of the ether in a week or two to spite you, right? =3
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  #25989  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCar View Post
I just beat Ys I, the turbo CD version. There is so much I love about this game, but... how did anyone beat it without emulators/save states/etc? The bosses are insanely hard and require a precision the controls just don't give you, the normal enemies are manageable until THEY'RE NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, and some of the backtracking is completely obtuse.

I loved the sights and the sounds, and even warmed up to the "walk into enemies" to kill them in relatively short order, but the moments when it doesn't work really shine forth.

Still, I'm glad I played through it, and I'm hoping that Book II will be slightly better - at the very least, I hope the bosses are a little more designed.

Also: hey! The gripe thread was on page 5 of the forums!

Look at us, being positive and such.
I just beat I/II last month, same versions. Original hardware. You don't need save states because you can save anywhere. The only battle I remember having trouble with in I was the guy that splits up into bats - the rest had pretty easy patterns.

In my experience, when enemies become unmanageable, it's the game trying to tell you that you're either in the wrong place or you're not quite ready for that area yet. Leveling up for a few minutes, or making strategic use of the rings, usually solved the problem.

II may give you some grief for backtracking, especially in Solomon Shrine, but you do eventually get a teleport spell that should help with that.

The bosses in II are completely different since you are expected to fight nearly all of them with the fire spell. Most of them are pretty OK, but there is one where the best strategy is "grind for an hour, then stand in front of it and hold button I with turbo on."
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  #25990  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
None of them are good, but all of them seem like they should be.

3 is heart-breaking
I like part 1 a lot. Sword can hit stuff, graphics and music cool, plus you get a sweet little throwing knife. I am bummed it's not on rare replay.
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  #25991  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:51 AM
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It's also the only game in the series with infinite continues, if I recall. After that, Rare decided, "nope, that won't do at all!" and limited players to as few as two continues in their later games. (Buttheads.)

Wizards and Warriors had a lot of hidden goodies in the game. One example? The Boots of Force. You may not have even known how to use them back in the 1980s, and if you did, you probably didn't know you could use them to kick the everloving crap out of bosses. Fights with that stupid rust red skeleton that would normally take minutes could be shaved down to ten seconds or less with the boots.
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  #25992  
Old 06-20-2017, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
I just beat I/II last month, same versions. Original hardware. You don't need save states because you can save anywhere. The only battle I remember having trouble with in I was the guy that splits up into bats - the rest had pretty easy patterns.

In my experience, when enemies become unmanageable, it's the game trying to tell you that you're either in the wrong place or you're not quite ready for that area yet. Leveling up for a few minutes, or making strategic use of the rings, usually solved the problem.

II may give you some grief for backtracking, especially in Solomon Shrine, but you do eventually get a teleport spell that should help with that.

The bosses in II are completely different since you are expected to fight nearly all of them with the fire spell. Most of them are pretty OK, but there is one where the best strategy is "grind for an hour, then stand in front of it and hold button I with turbo on."
It might be that I was tackling them too early, but nearly all of the bosses gave me trouble (with the exception of the last one, which was laughably easy). The floating demon heads in particular were excruciating.

I suppose use of those save states might have screwed me - because I had a tool for getting through the difficult sections, I might have found myself in over my head a few times. But when that happens, especially in Darm Tower, there are few tools for getting out of it; once the enemies are too strong, they're all too strong, meaning there's really nowhere to grind to get up to snuff.

Is that complaining because the designers didn't foresee the cheaters of the future? Maybe.

For all that, I wish there was more clear feedback on what was going wrong when you take damage. Like, if I knew FOR SURE that "shields generate knockback, so if your enemy isn't backing off when you hit them you need a better shield" or something to that effect I would feel much better about the game. As stands, I'm only MOST of the way in love.
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  #25993  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
It's also the only game in the series with infinite continues, if I recall. After that, Rare decided, "nope, that won't do at all!" and limited players to as few as two continues in their later games. (Buttheads.)
Wizards & Warriors I was an asshole, but manageable since you could keep bashing your head against that wall until you burst through it. Ironsword: Wizards & Warriors II limited the continues, but added a password system so it still wasn't too bad.

With Wizards & Warriors III, in addition to eliminating continues entirely it also featured a much bigger, mazelike, vertically inclined open world. And on top of that it added a job system, where you could only enter some areas and shop at stores if you were the right job.
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  #25994  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
It's also the only game in the series with infinite continues, if I recall. After that, Rare decided, "nope, that won't do at all!" and limited players to as few as two continues in their later games. (Buttheads.)

Wizards and Warriors had a lot of hidden goodies in the game. One example? The Boots of Force. You may not have even known how to use them back in the 1980s, and if you did, you probably didn't know you could use them to kick the everloving crap out of bosses. Fights with that stupid rust red skeleton that would normally take minutes could be shaved down to ten seconds or less with the boots.
Yes, but it also has the boots of lava walk, which if I remember correctly merely learn the damage you take from lava that appears in one level. It also has the cloak of invisibility, which makes the hero invisible to the player but not the enemies.

I love the first Wizards and Warriors, but it has problems.
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  #25995  
Old 06-20-2017, 03:10 PM
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Yeah, all the games had problems, particularly with the emphasis on lots of large mazey spaces with tiny platforms and Kuros swinging his sword like he's trying to shoo away a bee circling around his head. It's just that 1 & 2 are level-based and have the safety nets of infinite continues and passwords respectively while 3 has a big connected world and doesn't give the player jack shit.
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  #25996  
Old 06-20-2017, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MetManMas View Post
Yeah, all the games had problems, particularly [...] Kuros swinging his sword like he's trying to shoo away a bee circling around his head
I'm not gonna lie, this is, like, my favorite thing in the original game.
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  #25997  
Old 06-20-2017, 04:02 PM
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It's kind of ugly too, isn't it? There was a certain touch of whimsy to the graphics in the first two games, but with the third, you get a lot of tiling. You spend much of your time in ramshackle towns, and the trials are generally inky black voids with wooden platforms hanging over a sea of spikes. Rare typically adds a lot of style to their NES games, but here it seems limited to a few clever animations.



Also, when I see Kuros falling through a time portal into the distant future, I can't help but shout "turn back! This is where Rare gets sold to Microsoft and they start to suuuuck!"
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  #25998  
Old 06-20-2017, 04:18 PM
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Hey man, the Viva Piñata sim games were pretty great and Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts had an awesome vehicle-building mechanic.

Kameo was alright.
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  #25999  
Old 06-20-2017, 05:45 PM
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PS4 Skyrim, if your Quicsave feature is in a menu, it is, at best, a Reasonable Pacesave. All you needed to do was map Quicksave to a button instead of PoV.
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  #26000  
Old 06-21-2017, 05:39 PM
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Got to the final dungeon in Elliot Quest on 3DS, and apparently this port of the game has a glitch that makes the game crash and restart when you get the last dungeon item, which you need to beat the game. So, until there's an update, I can't play it any further.

Good. Great. Loving that.
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  #26001  
Old 06-21-2017, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCar View Post
I just beat Ys I, the turbo CD version. There is so much I love about this game, but... how did anyone beat it without emulators/save states/etc? The bosses are insanely hard and require a precision the controls just don't give you, the normal enemies are manageable until THEY'RE NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, and some of the backtracking is completely obtuse.

I loved the sights and the sounds, and even warmed up to the "walk into enemies" to kill them in relatively short order, but the moments when it doesn't work really shine forth.

Still, I'm glad I played through it, and I'm hoping that Book II will be slightly better - at the very least, I hope the bosses are a little more designed.

Also: hey! The gripe thread was on page 5 of the forums!

Look at us, being positive and such.
I played through the Ys Book I and II versions. I'm not sure how different they are, but it seemed like the answer was always to level grind, and just a single jump in level could make a huge difference.
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  #26002  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:06 PM
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The Ys Eternal-derived games (including the versions currently on Steam) only have 10 experience levels in the first game. Two levels make the difference between getting stomped by a boss and doing the stomping.
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  #26003  
Old 06-21-2017, 09:25 PM
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Heh, you hit the cap so early in those versions of Book 1 that you never really get to do any stomping yourself.
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  #26004  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:21 PM
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I remember getting utterly rekt against the first boss in Solomon Shrine. I got like one level, maybe two, and steamrolled him.

I love pretty much the entire series, but Ys I is weird.
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  #26005  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:38 PM
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I haven't played the whole series, but Ys II, III, IV, and Origin are like that, too.
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  #26006  
Old 06-22-2017, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MetManMas View Post
Wizards & Warriors I was an asshole, but manageable since you could keep bashing your head against that wall until you burst through it. Ironsword: Wizards & Warriors II limited the continues, but added a password system so it still wasn't too bad.
2 has the worst password system I can think of in any game. First off, passwords are ridiculously long. Second, the game will automatically unpause from the password screen after awhile. You basically need to either screenshot your passwords (or take a polaroid, if you were playing it when it was current or only slightly retro) or dictate them to someone.
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  #26007  
Old 06-22-2017, 06:55 AM
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The dramatic jumps in stats are an interesting quirk of the Ys series in general. But in addition to that, Ys I (again, just speaking of the Ys Eternal version here) also has a low level cap which you're practically guaranteed to hit way before the end, and it features only three dungeons, the last of which takes up literally almost the last half if the game. It really threw off my sense for progress the first time I played it.

That's why it feels to me like such an oddball game.
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  #26008  
Old 06-22-2017, 05:32 PM
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Yep, the bosses in the final dungeon are all gated by gear instead of level, so any seemingly hidden treasures aren't really optional. They also start relying on level design that uses super narrow halls and doorways to force you to fight because otherwise there's absolutely no reason not to just run past every enemy you can. I have a feeling the weird half-baked structure of Ys I is a big reason it has always been packaged together with Ys II.
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  #26009  
Old 06-22-2017, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bunk Moreland View Post
2 has the worst password system I can think of in any game. First off, passwords are ridiculously long. Second, the game will automatically unpause from the password screen after awhile. You basically need to either screenshot your passwords (or take a polaroid, if you were playing it when it was current or only slightly retro) or dictate them to someone.
Huh, forgot about that. Well I'm not saying they're great, I'm just saying they're there, and even if you have to be a quick draw with a pen, passwords and a couple of continues is still better than the nothing that 3 gives you.

Like, even back in the Stone Age of gaming you could find a gaming mag (or later on a code book) that would give you any passwords you needed.
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  #26010  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:26 AM
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I've tried to get into W&W 3 many times but the verticality just kills me. It's the series' gimmick and worked fine when things were separated into levels, but it just breaks my brain when it's applied to an open world. I mean, just look at this: http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/Wiza...wnOfPeidup.png

This town is madness. These people don't deserve saving.

Last edited by Tato; 06-23-2017 at 02:49 AM.
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