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  #61  
Old 06-16-2008, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul le Fou View Post
I didn't like the movie.
Cool, I won't make you watch it again.
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  #62  
Old 06-16-2008, 05:15 PM
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DERAILED!

I love Spider-Man 2. That series is what the current comic book movie is all about, for me. And I don't really get why everyone was so down on 3 - it felt like a goofy 70's Spider-Man comic arc. The only thing I can see having a legitimate problem with is the way the meteor landed, but other than that it was great.
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  #63  
Old 06-16-2008, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
DERAILED!

I love Spider-Man 2. That series is what the current comic book movie is all about, for me. And I don't really get why everyone was so down on 3 - it felt like a goofy 70's Spider-Man comic arc. The only thing I can see having a legitimate problem with is the way the meteor landed, but other than that it was great.
Had they taken everything Venom-related out of Spider-Man 3, leaving behind only Eddie Brock's setup to be Venom in a sequel, then yeah, I'd love Spider-Man 3.
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  #64  
Old 06-16-2008, 05:24 PM
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It was clear Raimi loved Sandman more than Venom. He actually made Venom boring, what with Topher Grace being his whiny, self-absorbed host. One thing about the Sandman that bothered me:

"I'm not a bad guy. I'm just a guy who's experienced a lot of bad things." (paraphrase -- after sneaking into his home to cuddle with his daughter.)

Thanks Sandman, but that's our job to see that!

Anyways, I'm going to see The Incredible Hulk again tonight! That movie is such a masterpiece. Hahaha.
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  #65  
Old 06-16-2008, 06:19 PM
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As I kind of expected, I didn't like it as much as most because while there was SOME depth to it - Norton playing the lead guaranteed that - I never cared for the Hulk TV series or any non-Peter-David Hulk comics, which this was leaning heavily on. No fault of the movie, I guess, but I have the feeling that comic-movie-as-drama-first is going to be the sole realm of the Bale / Nolan Batman movies, as the downside of Marvel self-financing means they're going to have to keep everything as broad as possible. \

Quote:
It was clear Raimi loved Sandman more than Venom.
It's obvious Rami grew up on 70s Spidey, and late 80s (exact date dependent on who you listen to in the great "I created Venom" debate) stuff like Venom with disdain. Good for him - much like most stuff by the Image founders, Venom's a great visual and little else.

(Although, if you're on Michelene's side in the debat, McFarlane shouldn't even get credit for the design)
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  #66  
Old 06-16-2008, 06:21 PM
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I think the problems in SM3 were blown wayyy out of porportion. But that might be indicative of a generally lower opinion of the original movie than most people. They are all very nice looking movies with writing that make me want to eat my own brain.

I say this as a big Spider-Man fan, who is literally shaking with anticipation for a DVD release of the new cartoon (which is like a hojillion times better than all the movies put together, seriously)

The second one was awesome except for the stupid sun machine thing, though
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  #67  
Old 06-16-2008, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
much like most stuff by the Image founders, Venom's a great visual and little else.
Yeah, which is why I wasn't too put off by the shoehorning of that plot, instead enjoying the visuals. Anyway, it kind of added to the feel that the movie was more like the literal adaptation and filming of a comic story arc rather than as a standalone entry in a film series. I can see some people being put off by it a bit but it added to the authentic comic feeling for me.
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  #68  
Old 06-16-2008, 07:11 PM
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Good for him - much like most stuff by the Image founders, Venom's a great visual and little else.
Well, I'd argue that Venom had a good origin - it was a great way to do an "evil twin" version of the main character. But yeah, he wasn't much beyond that.
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  #69  
Old 06-16-2008, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
The problem is we would go see a cool comic book movie together (like, say, Hellboy, or Spider-Man, or what-the-fuck-ever) and I would really like it, and he would be all "well i guess it was okay BUT" and then nine hours of fucking lecturing about how every single nuance an throwaway plot point from decades of comics should have been included.
See, I'm just like that with my friends, only on the other end of the spectrum. I usually go, "That bit where X does stuff is a nod to the comics! Super!", and they get bored as hell. You can't win as a comic book geek.




As for TIH, I thought it was okay, but it felt joyless. Not once did I feel thrilled by the action scenes, and that is unacceptable in a blockbuster. My friends thought it was cool, though.
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  #70  
Old 06-16-2008, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cortbassist89 View Post
Had they taken everything Venom-related out of Spider-Man 3, leaving behind only Eddie Brock's setup to be Venom in a sequel, then yeah, I'd love Spider-Man 3.
That'd definitely have improved it, and it seems like the best way to go since the movie was obviously supposed to be about Sandman before Raimi had to shoehorn Venom in there, but I think I'd like it to have been the other way around. Not that I'm a huge Venom freak or anything, but doesn't an evil twin sort of villain seem a better finale for a trilogy? Besides, I never liked the whole Flint Marco killing Uncle Ben subplot; it removes a lot of Peter's responsibility for his death, and that's just not cool. That part of Spider-man is sacred.

Not only that, but I kind of liked the few things Raimi did manage to do with Eddie Brock. He was much more awesome as a smartass douchebag version of Peter than he ever was as an eloquent, brooding thug. Given more than like ten minutes of screentime, better visual effects (you can tell they didn't pay as much attention to him as Sandman) and a spooky voice, and he would have made that movie.
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  #71  
Old 06-16-2008, 11:27 PM
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You guys are all talking like Venom won't be back in the next movie.
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  #72  
Old 06-16-2008, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
I never liked the whole Flint Marco killing Uncle Ben subplot; it removes a lot of Peter's responsibility for his death, and that's just not cool. That part of Spider-man is sacred.
True, but they didn't really change that. Messing with the mind of the audience is the name of the game. That, and rubbing some salt in Peter's guilt wound.

"Oh, so it wasn't my fault? Now I'll get my righteous revenge! Wait, it turns out it really was my fault? Balls."
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  #73  
Old 06-17-2008, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Not only that, but I kind of liked the few things Raimi did manage to do with Eddie Brock. He was much more awesome as a smartass douchebag version of Peter than he ever was as an eloquent, brooding thug. Given more than like ten minutes of screentime, better visual effects (you can tell they didn't pay as much attention to him as Sandman) and a spooky voice, and he would have made that movie.
I definitely agree with your sentiments.

The fact that the Sandman was largely explained away at the end of the movie just made the ending feel sort of empty. Raimi would indeed have been better off focusing on one character and deriving one central theme around which the film can revolve.

The Hulk has always been about addiction/substance abuse to me. His origin essentially starts when he ODs on radiation and decks the woman he loves. He can no longer face her and runs off to try and control himself. Ultimately though, Betty Ross becomes akin to a battered wife as she seems to simply fawn over Bruce and look past the beast inside of him.

Blonsky was a posterchild for performance-enhancing drugs and the constant urge to younger, faster, and stronger than you are now. He and Sterns both chased after the power of the Hulk and have become warped as a result. For me, the Prometheus symbolism that Dizzy mentioned actually makes a lot of sense in that context.
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  #74  
Old 06-17-2008, 12:22 PM
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I give Raimi points for not playing Kansas's Dust in the Wind as The Sandman drifted away at the end of SM3. I know I wouldn't be able to resist that temptation.

But yeah, a third movie about Venom would have been better, had it been built entirely around him from the ground up rather than around the lame-ass Sandman.

Who else is pissed they didn't even TEASE us with The Lizard?
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  #75  
Old 06-17-2008, 12:49 PM
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I usually go, "That bit where X does stuff is a nod to the comics! Super!", and they get bored as hell. You can't win as a comic book geek.
True, but when you're adapting good stories - specifically, X-Men 3 is the biggest guilty party here - straying from the source material has to be dealt with VERY warily, as the reason the stories are legendary in the first place is because they were pretty good to begin with.

I mean, X-Men 3's issues were more the logic gaps you could drive a train through - EG, "hey, Jean's turned into the most powerful mutant in the universe, it's too bad we don't have eight-hundred mutant-killing guns and a kid whose whole raison d'etre is to stop mutants around to do anything about that - let's just wait for Wolverine to save us", killing off Cyclops ten minutes in, etc. - but you'd think that just adapting the Phoenix Saga while replacing the Hellfire Club with the Brotherhod would have worked fine.

Movie writers generally overthink stuff, and it hurts. The reason Batman Begins worked so well in the first place is because, well, it was written by a comic writer.
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  #76  
Old 06-17-2008, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven View Post
killing off Cyclops ten minutes in
This is what hurt me the most.
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  #77  
Old 06-17-2008, 01:08 PM
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The atrocious screenplay and directing hurt me the most. It was like a bad soap opera. Also Halle Berry's presence. And Professor X getting killed off. And so on and so on.

Everything about that movie was bad. D:
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  #78  
Old 06-17-2008, 01:13 PM
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I liked X3, and then a bunch of comic book readers told me I wasn't allowed to like it, and this was a big part of my decision to stop seeing comic book movies with them.
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  #79  
Old 06-17-2008, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
I liked X3, and then a bunch of comic book readers told me I wasn't allowed to like it, and this was a big part of my decision to stop seeing comic book movies with them.
Well, in this case, they're right.
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  #80  
Old 06-17-2008, 01:26 PM
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Why falling into discussion of other superhero movies I'll get back to the Incredible Hulk.

Uh, it was ok. He smashed stuff. It was decently shot, featured good CG work, and was a lean and quickly paced movie. In the end I just don't find the Hulk that compelling of a character, especially in his dumb-as-a-rock persona.

I'm wary of this Avengers movie, but will give it a shot. It is too bad about the Marvel film schedule as there are no '09 movies coming out. All that we have until '10 is the new Punisher: War Zone movie which, from the trailer, may be the best Punisher movie but that isn't really a compliment.
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  #81  
Old 06-17-2008, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sraymonds View Post
This is what hurt me the most.
Ditto, because, when I was in ninth grade and still read Marvel, Cyclops was my favoritest X-character in the whole wide world... and I all but hated Wolverine for showing up everywhere.

Then the movies came out, and GUESS WHAT Wolverine is the main character and Cyclops gets offed. Nice.
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  #82  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Brickroad View Post
I liked X3
I think we've found the problem, gentlemen. A textbook case of Tragically Bad Taste in Movies.


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Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Then the movies came out, and GUESS WHAT Wolverine is the main character and Cyclops gets offed. Nice.
Even without him getting killed off ignominiously, when he was alive he was kind of a wiener/primadonna prettyboy. I'm not sure which one was worse.
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  #83  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:37 PM
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It's really disconcerting that Brickroad likes X3. It makes me wonder if I can trust him as a human being.
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  #84  
Old 06-17-2008, 06:33 PM
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Even without him getting killed off ignominiously, when he was alive he was kind of a wiener/primadonna prettyboy. I'm not sure which one was worse.
Yeah, that was like a Friends plotline, when they wrote the "rival" as someone so repellent that you wonder how, say, Ross would possibly choose girlfriend of the week #1425 when Jennifer Anniston was sitting right there.

I guess it didn't help that Morrison hadn't grabbed hold of X-Men yet, so Cyclops was in a really bad place, marketability-wise, when they made the first movie, and that informed Singer's decision to paint him that way.

Back to Hulk: the whole Stark cameo didn't really do anything for me. I mean, yay shared universe, yay continuity, but Iron Man didn't need the shock cameo and was only made better for it. Hulk, on the other hand, needed to go out on a really high note (because, let's face it, the problem with Hulk is always an inability to top the previous one), and the deleted cameo could've provided that, even if it didn't necessarily fit in with the end credits.
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  #85  
Old 06-17-2008, 06:39 PM
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Not to be that guy, because I hated X3, but at least it had a nice version of Beast going for it. Everything else was indeed sucky.
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  #86  
Old 06-17-2008, 06:45 PM
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I think the Spider-Man trilogy is very accurate if you compare it to the comic book's history. It had a more than decent start in the 60's, then it went up sky high in the 70's and part of the 80's and finally it collapsed to the ground in the 90s. And that's where we are right now.
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  #87  
Old 06-17-2008, 06:48 PM
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I guess it didn't help that Morrison hadn't grabbed hold of X-Men yet, so Cyclops was in a really bad place, marketability-wise, when they made the first movie, and that informed Singer's decision to paint him that way.
Was Morrison involved in any way with Ultimate Marvel? I seem to remember leafing through a couple of issues and seeing Cyclops depicted in a much more hardened manner than his previous versions. He also didn't come off as such a self-righteous leadership freak, but tempestuous.

What did Morrison do good with Cyclops?

Also, this connection between Marvel movies is just preparation for the Avengers flick on the horizon. The entire project sounds stupid as hell, but Marvel and Hollywood must know people will pay money for it.
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  #88  
Old 06-17-2008, 07:27 PM
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What did Morrison do good with Cyclops?
Elevated him to being a focal point of the team again - towards the end of the 90s, the X-Men had sank into an abyss of horrible new characters (Marrow, Maggot, etc.) and plot points. Morrison, in his Morrisonian way, came along, said "fuck it, I'm writing the team I want to" and elevated Cyke not only into the leadership role, but to headmaster of Xavier's. He also actually went somewhere with the Cyclops / Jean / Logan love triangle, as Cyclops finally responded to the years of his wife trying to hook up with Wolverine by... well, having an affair with Emma Frost. He actually wrote Cyclops as competent for the first time in YEARS, as he'd been designated as the appointed whipping boy for the X-Men for various reasons (... for fear of slander, I won't go into, say, Chris Claremont's).

Ultimate X-Men was post-Morrison, but the characterisation's close.
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  #89  
Old 06-17-2008, 07:52 PM
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Interesting perspective on Ang Lee's Hulk:

Quote:
Lee understands that the quality of effects have little to do with their photorealism. How "real" the Hulk looks is irrelevant—the reality is instead contingent on the conveyance of feeling. This affective connection is not necessarily achieved by top-line effects (a notion that echoes a traditionalist application of digital filmmaking). Instead, Lee illustrates that with the appropriate sensibility and aesthetic unity, such pure moments can be constructed traditionally (analogically), digitally, or with a perfect melding of the two. Hulk essentially embodies a new kind of cinematic connection that is both subtle and profound. The digital components are physically married to the composition and emotionally embedded in the narrative.
Sometimes I notice people write far more excitingly about a film than the film itself.
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  #90  
Old 06-17-2008, 08:01 PM
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Berardinelli''s review of Hulk sums up why it was good a lot more concisely than that one.
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