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  #31  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Umbaglo View Post
Overall, I really, REALLY liked 4e as a core product, though I will admit that 3e sure had it beat with addon materials. I like what I've seen about 5e so far, but am sad about some of the things they removed or changed during the playtesting. One of the first packages had TWF be much more of a trade-off, where it gave you full to-hit and damage bonuses, but your damage was always halved per weapon. This allowed for an interesting dynamic between TWF and 2H, in the sense that both could potentially deal the same damage, but TWF was more consistent damage, even if each hit was weaker.
That's only really true if all of your epic weapons come in pairs. No one wants to wield a +3 keen flaming longsword with a regular sword in the other hand.
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  #32  
Old 07-23-2014, 11:23 AM
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That's only really true if all of your epic weapons come in pairs. No one wants to wield a +3 keen flaming longsword with a regular sword in the other hand.
Sure, but if nothing else your offhand will be a hand-me-down. By the time you have a +3 Keen Flaming, you probably also have a +2 already.
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2014, 11:27 AM
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As long as no one else on the team needs that +2, I guess. It seems needlessly resource-intensive for the benefit it provides, especially if you're paying for weapons out-of-pocket.
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Umbaglo View Post
I am also sad about the loss of the "action dice" mechanic for the melee characters, even if it mechanically didn't seem like it was working out. Though some of the actions WotC gave were... less and less useful as time went on, leaving only the generic +damage to attack one as being useful. The one to at least let you get some damage on a miss kept getting nerfed into uselessness; there was one playtest package where the way it was redesigned meant there were literally no monsters in the package you could use it on.
From what I remember from the last playtest, there might be a Fighter subclass that still uses these dice.

Edit: Also:

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Originally Posted by Umbaglo View Post
I like what I've seen about 5e so far, but am sad about some of the things they removed or changed during the playtesting. One of the first packages had TWF be much more of a trade-off, where it gave you full to-hit and damage bonuses, but your damage was always halved per weapon. This allowed for an interesting dynamic between TWF and 2H, in the sense that both could potentially deal the same damage, but TWF was more consistent damage, even if each hit was weaker.
Attacking with an off-hand weapon is a Bonus Attack, of which you only get one per round.
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2014, 03:37 PM
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Attacking with an off-hand weapon is a Bonus Attack, of which you only get one per round.
Right, I've been setting up a twf fighter in Lucas's game, and my conclusion is that the "nerf" is that you can't use a bonus action from another source, since you already use the bonus action for the second weapon.

The problem is, there are painfully few sources of bonus actions (the rogue innate, I think?), so Fighters (who have the ability to use full damage with the second weapon) don't even get nerfed because they wouldn't have a bonus action to use otherwise.
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2014, 03:49 PM
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From what I remember from the last playtest, there might be a Fighter subclass that still uses these dice.
Yeah from the secret playtest/alpha rulebook that stuff has been leaked from (I have links to some of the images, but I don't know if it's kosher to post here), the Battle Master three dice to use, that replenish with a short rest.

The big problem with that build however, is that all Fighter Maneuvers come from the same pool, which means as you level, you're getting the abilities you're less excited about (for example, if Wizards only got to pick from the Level 1 spell list, you pick the ones that you really like first, and then as it goes, pick the least worst option). Also DC for saves for some of the maneuvers have the potential to be worse at lower levels (it's 8+double your proficiency vs. the Wizard's/Cleric's 8+Int/Wis mod+Proficiency) depending on how stats are generated.

Since it's from an alpha version, hopefully they at least fix the progression somehow so you have stuff to be more exciting about gaining.
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by aturtledoesbite View Post
Right, I've been setting up a twf fighter in Lucas's game, and my conclusion is that the "nerf" is that you can't use a bonus action from another source, since you already use the bonus action for the second weapon.

The problem is, there are painfully few sources of bonus actions (the rogue innate, I think?), so Fighters (who have the ability to use full damage with the second weapon) don't even get nerfed because they wouldn't have a bonus action to use otherwise.
Yes, but importantly, it means that as the Fighter gains more attacks, they don't get more swings with their secondary weapon... I think.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:11 PM
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So I saw that version 5 is going to be like 12 bucks. That's p fucking brill. Even dudes who don't play will be like heck I got 12 bucks.
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:40 PM
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I guess? I mean, you've been able to get 3E and all its decedents online for free for 14 years now.
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:40 PM
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It's brilliant from a marketing standpoint, not a "get more people into D&D" standpoint.
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  #41  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:44 PM
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For like fringe people like me it's super smart. I'm "interested" in D&D but not dedicated. If I see a $25 monster manual in the bookshop I'm not going to plop that down on a whim. I ain't got no crew to play with and the investment is too high to jump in.

But 12 bucks is much more of an impulse or "I really should own a starter set even if I'm never going to play" price.
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  #42  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
Attacking with an off-hand weapon is a Bonus Attack, of which you only get one per round.
That's not really what I was talking about, though. The 5e implementation of TWF is basically identical to 3e, but I liked the interesting tradeoff they had in the playtests. That it now takes up your Minor Action for the turn is also a tradeoff, but not one I find all that interesting.

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Yes, but importantly, it means that as the Fighter gains more attacks, they don't get more swings with their secondary weapon... I think.
The Fighter bonus attacks ability says you get the bonus swings each time you use an action to Attack. A bonus action is still an action, and you still choose to Attack with it using your off-hand, so you still get bonus attacks on it.

TWF seems to have received an undeniable upgrade over 3e, since the bonus action triggering isn't dependant on anything other then having a Light weapon in both hands, and the only penalty is a loss of +damage (which Fighters can recover). This means you can full move and still flurry with both weapons. Though to be fair, this is also basically how 4e handled TWF.

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So I saw that version 5 is going to be like 12 bucks. That's p fucking brill. Even dudes who don't play will be like heck I got 12 bucks.
I'm hoping they release the PHB and DMG in PDF this time. I want to pick them up while I'm out of town, and there's no game stores anywhere near where I am.


Also, heh. Looking back over the Basic rules, I'm amused to see them use some novel characters as examples, like Tika Waylan.

Last edited by Umbaglo; 07-23-2014 at 10:59 PM.
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  #43  
Old 07-23-2014, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Umbaglo View Post
TWF seems to have received an undeniable upgrade over 3e, since the bonus action triggering isn't dependant on anything other then having a Light weapon in both hands, and the only penalty is a loss of +damage (which Fighters can recover). This means you can full move and still flurry with both weapons. Though to be fair, this is also basically how 4e handled TWF.
The full attack rules in 3E are a god damn abomination of game design. It's because you "need to spend the entire turn attacking." No really. You can full attack from horseback while moving with a ranged weapon (and in no other circumstance) without any special training. Otherwise hope you like where you're at, because it takes the same six seconds to attack once each with a weapon in each hand as it does to attack four times with a single weapon. And both take more time than throwing out four scorching rays.
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  #44  
Old 07-23-2014, 11:37 PM
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Yeah, there's a lot of things I shake my head at in 3e, and all the stuff that comes up as a result of turns being 6 seconds long is one of the biggest.

Also I think you can full attack from horseback with any weapon while moving, because YOU didn't take the move action, the HORSE did. At least, I seem to recall that's how my friend handles things in his games, and he's kind of a stickler for being close to the rules, except for when the rules are broken and/or nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
From what I remember from the last playtest, there might be a Fighter subclass that still uses these dice.
So, the last playtest package had the action dice as a core mechanic, and the "sub specs" of Fighter used them in different ways. The implementation of Fighter in Basic has one of the sub specs, but not the action dice mechanic that spec had.

Maybe the PHB will add it in, but since Basic is meant to be a set of final rules, even if they're shortened for ease of play, that leads me to believe that the mechanic was removed. But maybe it would come back as a specific mechanic of one of the sub specs.

Last edited by Umbaglo; 07-24-2014 at 05:28 AM.
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  #45  
Old 07-25-2014, 11:32 AM
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The Fighter bonus attacks ability says you get the bonus swings each time you use an action to Attack. A bonus action is still an action, and you still choose to Attack with it using your off-hand, so you still get bonus attacks on it.
Uh. It's possible they've updated the Basic PDF, but my copy says nothing of the sort.

The Fighter's Extra Attack feature on pg 25 of Basic says that "you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." The Action Surge feature says "On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action." Neither of these says you get additional bonus actions.

Bonus Actions, on pg 69 of Basic, says "You can only take one bonus action on your turn." Two-weapon Fighting, on pg 74, says "When you take the Attack action with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."

Note the difference in wording between "take the Attack action" and "use a bonus action to attack". Note also that the wording in Two-weapon Fighting, on pg 74, is the same as the wording under Opportunity Attack, above. If Two-weapon Fighting procs a full suite of Fighter Extra Attacks, Opportunity Attack clearly does as well.

Has this actually been officially clarified somewhere?

Last edited by Egarwaen; 07-25-2014 at 11:53 AM.
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  #46  
Old 07-25-2014, 12:24 PM
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Right above the part you quoted on page 69 has:

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On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action.
And

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Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action.
As such, the rules define a bonus action as an action, with all that pertains to it. The designation of "bonus" exists simply as a function to limit your ability to get additional actions.
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  #47  
Old 07-25-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Umbaglo View Post
Right above the part you quoted on page 69 has:

And

As such, the rules define a bonus action as an action, with all that pertains to it. The designation of "bonus" exists simply as a function to limit your ability to get additional actions.
Sure. Except that the bonus action you're taking is "Two-weapon Fighting", not "Attack". "Attack" is a specific action type, listed under Actions in Combat on pg 71, which allows you to make an attack - note the capitalization, which matches up with the capitalization under the Fighter's Extra Attacks feature. Two-weapon Fighting is a bonus action type that allows you to make an attack - again, note capitalization - which is not, itself, an Attack action.

Note also that Reactions, on pg 70, says "Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction." If I take your interpretation, I see no reason why a reaction is not an action, with all that pertains to it, with the designation of Reaction simply existing as a function to permit you to take one per turn out of order. Thus, a Fighter who takes the Reaction "Opportunity Attack" gets to make an Attack action, and gets his full complement of Extra Attacks again, potentially allowing a 5th-level Two-Weapon Fighter to swing six times in a turn.

I think this is pretty clearly much too good, far better than any of the other offensive Fighting Style options, which hash out to about a +2 or +3 to damage; if I've got a 50% chance of hitting and a +3 ability modifier, six swings gives me an effective +9 to my damage output. Even if I don't get any Reactions and only get four swings, that's a +6 to my damage output.
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  #48  
Old 07-25-2014, 01:26 PM
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As you quote yourself, TWF states that you use a bonus action to attack with the off-hand weapon.

I don't know, really. If their specific intent was "If you make an Attack action while holding a light weapon in both hands, you attack with both but only one swing benefits from effects", there is literally no need to specify that you're given an action to attack with the off-hand weapon. The fact that they are making it a bonus action instead of making it part of the normal attack action means they intend for TWF (and opportunity attack) to interact with abilities that trigger on attack actions for these bonus swings. This not only includes Fighter flurry, but probably later special abilities or weapon effects that just aren't in Basic.


As for overpowered, that's debatable. Even if we assume that the DM gives the Fighter an opportunity attack each turn (and ignore all stat and item damage bonuses for ease of comparison), the L5 Fighter is going to be dealing 6d6 a turn. The Rogue would be doing 1d8+3d6 or 2d6+3d6 each turn depending on whether it's TWFing or not. The Wizard has 2 casts of Fireball (8d6 to up to 4 targets or more, if you're not using grids), or Lightning Bolt (8d6 to up to 20 targets or more), though does have a less impressive at-will, being only 2d10, or 2d8 with a debuff.

If the Fighter isn't getting an OE every turn, that still puts it at less pure throughput then the Rogue gets. If a Fighter only gets flurry on the main hand weapon, then it definitely is inferior to a Rogue in terms of dealing damage, even if we do include flurrying with a greatsword or maul (4d6). Heck, when you think about flurrying with a greatsword, TWF HAS to flurry on each hand in order for it to be considered on par with the 2H weapons!
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  #49  
Old 07-25-2014, 01:33 PM
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As for overpowered, that's debatable. Even if we assume that the DM gives the Fighter an opportunity attack each turn (and ignore all stat and item damage bonuses for ease of comparison), the L5 Fighter is going to be dealing 6d6 a turn. The Rogue would be doing 1d8+3d6 or 2d6+3d6 each turn depending on whether it's TWFing or not. The Wizard has 2 casts of Fireball (8d6 to up to 4 targets or more, if you're not using grids), or Lightning Bolt (8d6 to up to 20 targets or more), though does have a less impressive at-will, being only 2d10, or 2d8 with a debuff.
Don't those Rogue numbers assume Sneak Attack? Shouldn't you expect a Rogue Sneak Attack to outdamage a fighter?

Wizard comparisons are apples and oranges at best.
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  #50  
Old 07-25-2014, 01:40 PM
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It does seem a bit ambiguous, but I think the wording implies that you only get the one bonus attack. Last I heard, that was how it worked in the playtest too - fighter w/ 2 attacks + 2wf = 3 attacks.
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  #51  
Old 07-25-2014, 01:49 PM
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Don't those Rogue numbers assume Sneak Attack? Shouldn't you expect a Rogue Sneak Attack to outdamage a fighter?
Not if I expect Fighter to be an equal damage dealing class. The WAY it gets it's damage should be different, but if both are expected to perform as damage dealers, then they should be roughly similar in terms of at-will output.

That said, a friend tells me that WotC has clarified elsewhere that bonus actions are not actions, though he doesn't have the reference at hand. This means that 2H is better, though it only gets pronounced at higher levels. Average difference at L5 is about 2 damage, factoring in the goofy not-quite-Brutal great weapon spec gives.
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  #52  
Old 07-25-2014, 02:00 PM
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Not if I expect Fighter to be an equal damage dealing class.
That assumes sneak attacks are 100% reliable, and that the other differences in capabilities between fighters and rogues are a wash.
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  #53  
Old 07-25-2014, 02:25 PM
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That assumes sneak attacks are 100% reliable, and that the other differences in capabilities between fighters and rogues are a wash.
That's what I was talking about, though. A skilled player of either class would arrange themselves to take advantages of these, and as a result should deal similar damage. It's not that dissimilar from how your typical MMO will have classes that deal damage in different ways (DoTs, slow but powerful swings, fast but weak swings, special attacks, etc), but over time and if played well, deal roughly the same damage.

Of course, I assume that Fighter is meant to be a primary damage dealer, what with mostly having damage-focused specs. Yes it does have a tank option.


Also, the current incarnation of Sneak Attack is a lot more lenient then earlier playtests. I mean, you can Sneak Attack any time you have Advantage on an attack, or any time you're attacking any enemy that has one of your allies next to it, even if that ally isn't fighting that enemy. Which isn't going to be hard to pull off in a party encounter.
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  #54  
Old 07-25-2014, 02:55 PM
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As you quote yourself, TWF states that you use a bonus action to attack with the off-hand weapon.
Correct; there's a distinction between the Attack Action and making an attack. The Attack Action allows you to make an attack; when a Fighter takes the Attack Action, they can make multiple attacks. Two-weapon Fighting, as written, does not allow you to take an Attack Action, it allows you to make an attack, just like an Opportunity Attack does.

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I don't know, really. If their specific intent was "If you make an Attack action while holding a light weapon in both hands, you attack with both but only one swing benefits from effects", there is literally no need to specify that you're given an action to attack with the off-hand weapon.
That's not at all what I'm saying their intent was. I'm saying that if you make an Attack action while holding a lot weapon in both hands, you may make an attack using the TWF action as your bonus action. But the Fighter Extra Attack feature specifically triggers off the Attack action, not making an attack.

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The fact that they are making it a bonus action instead of making it part of the normal attack action means they intend for TWF (and opportunity attack) to interact with abilities that trigger on attack actions for these bonus swings. This not only includes Fighter flurry, but probably later special abilities or weapon effects that just aren't in Basic.
I disagree; the fact that they are making it a bonus action means only that you can't do it if you're taking any other bonus actions, and that you can only make an attack with your off-hand once per round. This also does not, in any way, restrict the potential later addition of abilities that trigger off of making an attack, or of further abilities that trigger off taking an Attack action. In fact, the distinction allows considerably more design flexibility without worrying about interactions with TWF causing efficiency explosions. (See, for example, chance-on-attack trinket procs in WoW prior to rate normalization)

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If the Fighter isn't getting an OE every turn, that still puts it at less pure throughput then the Rogue gets. If a Fighter only gets flurry on the main hand weapon, then it definitely is inferior to a Rogue in terms of dealing damage, even if we do include flurrying with a greatsword or maul (4d6). Heck, when you think about flurrying with a greatsword, TWF HAS to flurry on each hand in order for it to be considered on par with the 2H weapons!
To start with, you're discounting the benefits from the Fighter archetype - the increased crit range is a significant source of extra damage.

A Rogue at level 20 deals 10d6 extra damage on one attack in a round. Call it 40 expected extra damage.

A Dueling Fighter at level 20 with a +5 attribute (inferior to GWF but easier to analyze) using a 1d8 weapon makes three extra attacks, for 3d8 + 6 + 15 or 36 expected extra damage.

A TWF Fighter using a 1d6 weapon with a +5 attribute under my interpretation makes four extra attacks, for 4d6 + 20 or 36 expected extra damage.

A TWF Fighter using a 1d6 weapon with a +5 attribute under your interpretation makes seven extra attacks, for 7d6 + 35 or 63 expected extra damage.

Note that I'm not including to-hit chance in this calculation, since I'm pretty sure it's a wash, or crits, which further increase the fighter's damage.
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  #55  
Old 07-25-2014, 03:08 PM
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The average result of 1d6 is 3.5, 1d8 is 4.5. Quit rounding up and use the proper values you.
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  #56  
Old 07-25-2014, 03:13 PM
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The average result of 1d6 is 3.5, 1d8 is 4.5. Quit rounding up and use the proper values you.
I am chastised! That changes the expected damage numbers to:

Rogue: 35
Dueling Fighter: 34.5
TWF: 34
TWF (Double Extra Attack): 59.5

With the fighters actually being a little higher due to their 18-20 crit range, and their damage being completely unconditional and able to be as spread out or focused as they need it to be.

EDIT: Now, admittedly, this is very rough. The fighter's rarely going to hit with all of his attacks, but can usually expect to hit with some of them. The Rogue is sometimes just going to completely whiff. More of the fighter's damage (in all cases) comes from fixed bonuses, while the Rogue's 10d6 has a much, much wider range. (Somewhere between 24 and 42, probably) The Fighter can always Extra Attack and TWF unless she wants to do something else; the Rogue needs either a reliable source of Advantage or an ally to Sneak Attack.

So... There's probably some advantage one way or the other, but they seem close enough. Except for the Double Extra Attack TWF fighter, who's so obviously better than everything else that why would you even bother?

Last edited by Egarwaen; 07-25-2014 at 04:17 PM.
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  #57  
Old 07-26-2014, 12:53 AM
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So... There's probably some advantage one way or the other, but they seem close enough. Except for the Double Extra Attack TWF fighter, who's so obviously better than everything else that why would you even bother?
My friend crunched the numbers and says that GWF's trait makes the average on a 1d6 3.75, which means that greatswords deal 7.5 average damage. That means that a L20 Great Weapon Fighter does 50 average damage per attack action using your figures ((7.5+5)*4).

Dueling Fighter does (4.5+5+2)*4 or 46 damage. TWF Fighter does (3.5+5)*5 or 42.5 damage. Rogue does (3.5+5)x2+35 or 52 if it's TWFing, or (4.5+5)+35 or 44.5 if it's one-handing.

Comparing the bonus damage doesn't tell the whole story, because the base attack itself still matters when adding the damage up.


Heck, let's just add in stat bonuses, since it does make for a difference when TWFing (or flurrying). Since we're only assuming basic magic weapon, let's just say that at L20 you only have 20 in your damage stat (since you can't increase it above 20 via level up). That makes another +5. Then we have:

Duel Fighter: (4.5+5+5+2)*4 = 66
TWF Fighter: (3.5+5+5)*5 = 67.5
GW Fighter: (7.5+5+5)*4 = 70
Duel Rogue: (4.5+5+5)+35 = 49.5
TWF Rogue: (3.5+5+5)+(3.5+5)+35 = 56.5


What this tells me is that my first blush impression was off, but I was also underestimating the effect of certain bonuses (as I, admittedly, have tended to do when it comes to combining dice for ease of discussion). Fighters definitely scale better then Rogues do, due to the multiplicative nature of their attack action.
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  #58  
Old 07-28-2014, 11:32 PM
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gahitsu gahitsu is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nilbog
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Y'all ready for a steaming hot plate of Grade A Grognard Shit? Check out this super sweet photo collection of a 4e book burning. Read the comments for a glimpse into the "cathartic" effect it had on these totally-not-spoiled-manchildren as they look forward to "the return of D&D". Glimpse into the face of the people who continue to fan the flames of the frothing rage edition wars, ye mighty, and despair.

I mean, god forbid you donate hundreds of dollars worth of books to a library, or give them to friends, or do the super practical thing and sell them on eBay. Oh, no, the wounds must be healed.

I swear to god.
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  #59  
Old 07-28-2014, 11:44 PM
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Umbaglo Umbaglo is offline
Objection!
 
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Edition warriors make me sad and depressed. Especially since I liked 4e and am not a fan of 3e. But I will admit that my problems with 3e are more a result of how broad and... kind of incompatable d20 as a hole ended up being, making trying to play with a community that's pretty good at min/maxing kind of a depressing thing.

I understand the complaints that people had about the way 4e decided to design itself. But I LIKED many of those, and some of the other problems (in my own playing experience) tended to arise from people not following Rule #0: The GM can change the rules to suit the game and players.

A friend was running a 4e game for another community I'm a part of, and was using one of the few adventure campaigns as the basis. The encounters and events of the campaign were... not very well written, so there were a lot of complaints from players regarding how 4e handled things like skill checks or monster stats, when all of those things were actually part of the campaign, and not how 4e handles things as a general rule.

When my friend deviated from what was laid out in the adventure, everyone had a much more enjoyable time, which just accentuated the point.
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  #60  
Old 07-29-2014, 12:15 AM
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kaisel kaisel is offline
Dick Gumshoe Demon
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fairbanks, AK
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God that's depressing. And it looks like one of the communications guys for an RPG company I like defended it in the comments which is just adds to my whole frustration with the whole thing.
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concentration , dungeons and dragons , edition wars , gith racism , penalty for being bard , tasha's hideous slaughter

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