The Return of Talking Time

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  #2671  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:44 PM
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Not too many empires are good, to be fair.

Kingdoms, sure, but “Empire” is usually shorthand for “bad guys”
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  #2672  
Old 02-11-2019, 09:56 PM
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Oh MAN.

MAN YOU GUYS.

MAN!!
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  #2673  
Old 02-11-2019, 09:57 PM
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I thought you guys were talking about the general asthenic/setting of AOT which is pretty obviously a totalitarian hellstate.

BUT OH FUCKING MAN I JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT THE *TWIST* AND OH MY GOD I AM IN A STATE OF SHOCK.
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  #2674  
Old 02-11-2019, 09:59 PM
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So DAMN.

That's where they went with it huh?

I mean.

Fuck man.

That shit crossed over with goddam spider Man for fucks sake.

AND THEN THEY DID THAT.
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  #2675  
Old 02-11-2019, 10:07 PM
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turns out it was weapons grade antisemitism in the basement all along!
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  #2676  
Old 02-11-2019, 11:31 PM
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Which twist? There's a bunch of 'em.
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  #2677  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:20 AM
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The one where they said HITLER WAS RIGHT.
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  #2678  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:35 AM
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I'm going to need more specifics?
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  #2679  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:38 AM
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It said HITLER WAS RIGHT more than once?!?!
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  #2680  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:39 AM
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Potentially!
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  #2681  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:42 AM
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Seems like the sort of thing you'd only need to say once.
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  #2682  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:50 AM
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I'd say a more charitable reading of AoT is not that, "Hitler was right," but rather, "Everyone is Hitler, and everyone is wrong."

But AoT does a really lousy job of asserting that idea and expects its audience to be able to read between the lines. And that's probably a bad idea when your typical anime fan operates like this:



Now imagine I put Hitler's face on that Gundam, the gun is spraying "facism is bad", and the anime fan is saying "wow, cool uniforms!"
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  #2683  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:56 AM
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Gogglebob just showed me the armbands and I gotta say I'm not feeling "charitable".
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  #2684  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:58 AM
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Nazi analogies in media are a dicey proposition to begin with, but not making your stand-in for the Jewish people "the actual thing that ends the world" is usually a pretty good starting point.
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  #2685  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:34 AM
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You'll get no disagreement from me.

You'd really get a kick out of what's going on in the comic. And by kick, I mean likely to kick your computer out the nearest window.

The entire series' primary antagonist is a Nazi, self-loathing Jew who is trying to enact a forced sterilization of all the Jews because everyone would be happier if no more Jews were born. He is, of course, unequivocally in the wrong, and the comic delights in graphically torturing/mutilating him for being wrong (which is a whole different can of worms) but the comic also goes to great lengths to get you to sympathize with him and see how he got to where we are now, because it just really gets off on being tragedy-porn.
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  #2686  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:45 AM
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I knew the comic wasn't for me when I picked up the first volume in a barnes and noble Aisle and read the first chapter or so and it went like this.

*SOLDIERS RETURN FROM BATTLE*

*MOTHER STEPS FORWARD FROM CROWD*

MOTHER: My son! Has he not returned with you!

COMMANDER: YOUR SON IS FUCKING DEAD!

MOTHER: Oh no! I am sad and grieving, and take only the slightest comfort in the fact that he died defending his family!

COMMANDER: HE DIED LIKE A BITCH

MOTHER: What the fuck.

COMMANDER: EVERYONE WHO DIED TODAY DIED LIKE A BITCH.

MOTHER: Jesus dude.

COMMANDER: THIS COMIC IS EDGY.
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  #2687  
Old 02-12-2019, 07:10 AM
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Suddenly I feel much better about bouncing off a show that's so popular.
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  #2688  
Old 02-12-2019, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
I'd say a more charitable reading of AoT is not that, "Hitler was right," but rather, "Everyone is Hitler, and everyone is wrong."

But AoT does a really lousy job of asserting that idea and expects its audience to be able to read between the lines. And that's probably a bad idea when your typical anime fan operates like this:



Now imagine I put Hitler's face on that Gundam, the gun is spraying "facism is bad", and the anime fan is saying "wow, cool uniforms!"
I don't think the "typical anime fan" is at fault here, neither in the illustration nor in the current topic. The creators of these shows very deliberately market the imagery and trappings of the authoritarian, military, often fascist power structures that protagonists belong to, with the full knowledge that teens and disaffected adults will be drawn to elements like uniforms, or cool tech, or the sense of comradeship and teamwork, or the "nobility" of self-sacrifice for a greater good (as defined by the show's morality, natch). Creators can cry all day long about "fans not getting it" but they're also the ones who benefit most from "fans not getting it," and they can, and often do, exploit this to surreptitiously convey their own ideologies under the guise of "I'm just presenting it fairly so you naturally draw your own conclusions."

If you want to say "War is bad" you don't sell model kits of Space Nazis, is what I'm saying.

(And it should go without saying that, if you want to criticize your Feudal Spiderman Nazis, you absolutely do not appropriate anti-Semitic cartoons as character designs.)
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  #2689  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post

(And it should go without saying that, if you want to criticize your Feudal Spiderman Nazis, you absolutely do not appropriate anti-Semitic cartoons as character designs.)
Is AoT doing that too? I don't watch it directly, I just keep tabs on what I hear. Are there really stereotype-design characters like that in the show/manga?
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  #2690  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendrick View Post
Is AoT doing that too? I don't watch it directly, I just keep tabs on what I hear. Are there really stereotype-design characters like that in the show/manga?
it's not subtle
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  #2691  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:54 AM
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what japan fascist impossible
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  #2692  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendrick View Post
Is AoT doing that too? I don't watch it directly, I just keep tabs on what I hear. Are there really stereotype-design characters like that in the show/manga?
Well going by my conversation with Gogglebob from earlier today...



COMPUTER! ZOOM! ENHANCE!



Aw man, that's not okay.

But to answer your question, while I have no idea if there are any MAIN characters have that kind of design, putting shit like that in the backgrounds isn't exactly something you do by accident.
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  #2693  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:21 AM
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The twitter thread that came up in recent days eventually shared comparison images of those infamous propaganda cartoons (you know which ones) against artwork of "Titans" (known to the audience, and portrayed as, hideously malformed humans) annnnnnnnnnd it was pretty gross. Honestly, not inclined to go searching for them again.

Like I said: the author and his fans can claim all day long that "war is bad" and "we don't agree with these ideas, we're just presenting them to show you how bad they are", but it's all bunk if you still use their imagery uncontested.
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  #2694  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:12 PM
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Basically.

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  #2695  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Can we blame Hetalia and its fandom for opening the gate to pro-fascism, ultra-nationalistic authors and mangaka
No.

Authoritarian leanings and subtext is a long-standing (arguably even inherent) issue with fantasy fiction— and is in no way exclusive to Japanese fiction, for that matter.
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  #2696  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:54 PM
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For example: The Iron Dream
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  #2697  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post
I don't think the "typical anime fan" is at fault here, neither in the illustration nor in the current topic. The creators of these shows very deliberately market the imagery and trappings of the authoritarian, military, often fascist power structures that protagonists belong to, with the full knowledge that teens and disaffected adults will be drawn to elements like uniforms, or cool tech, or the sense of comradeship and teamwork, or the "nobility" of self-sacrifice for a greater good (as defined by the show's morality, natch). Creators can cry all day long about "fans not getting it" but they're also the ones who benefit most from "fans not getting it," and they can, and often do, exploit this to surreptitiously convey their own ideologies under the guise of "I'm just presenting it fairly so you naturally draw your own conclusions."
I understand where this is coming from, and I think there's more than enough blame to spread around. But I don't quite feel right about completely absolving the consumer of blame here.

I also don't feel great about placing the blame for this phenomenon at the feet of a nebulous "creators" when the reality is a fair bit more complicated in many circumstances. Especially in the case of Gundam (at least pre-Bandai buyout).
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  #2698  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
I understand where this is coming from, and I think there's more than enough blame to spread around. But I don't quite feel right about completely absolving the consumer of blame here.

I also don't feel great about placing the blame for this phenomenon at the feet of a nebulous "creators" when the reality is a fair bit more complicated in many circumstances. Especially in the case of Gundam (at least pre-Bandai buyout).
Also it's dramatically oversimplifying matters; there's plenty of segments of Gundam fandom (as an example, since it's the giant robot in the picture) that get the antifascist message. It's not precisely a subtle element of the original work. They just tend to be lower-status market segments (less straight, male, and possessed of extensive disposable income) so they're not as emphasized by the business side of things.

It's also important to distinguish "neutral or antifascist work that gets misinterpreted" from "no, that's literally regurgitating blood libel".
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  #2699  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:02 PM
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Sure, I can definitely correct/amend my statement to reassign some blame back to the consumers of media (by which I mean consuming the message or consuming the merchandise). But I still feel it's an unequal relationship, since it's the product which came first, and presented its materials for said consumption, in the pre-existing context where all the aforementioned factors are known. Consumers aren't brainless fish that inevitably bite the hook, they make a conscious choice as to what to consume, but creators are the ones that initiate the relationship with carefully-crafted, or at least deliberate, messaging.

And by "nebulous creators" I mean everyone directlly responsible for conveying those consumer-oriented messages, from the actual artists and authors, to the publishers, to the marketing teams, to the franchise owners who demand profit from the property. I'm not sure whether Tomino ever complained to Bandai about glamorizing the Principality of Zeon with all the Gundam toys, but the history of the franchise doesn't suggest he had much of a problem with it.
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  #2700  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:14 PM
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As influential to the UC setting and Gundam 'lore' as a whole as Tomino is, I would be willing to bet that he had less than nothing to do with Bandai proper outside of whoever his contacts at Sunrise were.
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