The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about television games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 05-12-2015, 09:08 AM
Alixsar's Avatar
Alixsar Alixsar is offline
The Shogun of Harlem
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Harlem
Posts: 23,968
Default By the way, I can ban people now. Apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TE-Ryan View Post
I'll put my money down as soon as it becomes available for a machine I own.
You're using a computer right now! YOU HAVE 15 SECONDS TO COMPLY *readies the ban hammer*
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 05-12-2015, 09:09 AM
WildcatJF's Avatar
WildcatJF WildcatJF is online now
Wisdom's Pissed
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Somewhere Out There
Pronouns: he / his
Posts: 8,292
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSL View Post
By 2017 we'll probably have a replacement for the Wii U.
Maybe. The NX is still a nebulous thing Nintendo won't talk about until 2016, so the Wii U may have legs until then...but I may have a PS4 by March 2017 anyway, so it'll all work out.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 05-12-2015, 10:24 AM
TE-Ryan's Avatar
TE-Ryan TE-Ryan is offline
Not 100% a dick
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Winterpeg
Posts: 4,777
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alixsar View Post
You're using a computer right now! YOU HAVE 15 SECONDS TO COMPLY *readies the ban hammer*
A computer at work. No games will be played here.

And my home PC most likely won't run the game if it's so fancy that it can't run on anything less than an XBone/PS4. I'm not chucking $28 ($34 in Canadabux) at something that I can't be sure I'll be able to use.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 05-12-2015, 02:20 PM
Googleshng's Avatar
Googleshng Googleshng is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 16,245
Default

So... we have something which is obviously cribbing liberally from Castlevania, and setting itself apart by giving the totally-not-vampires-guys this weird stained-glass motif.

Someone else please go watch Kamen Rider Kiva so I'm not alone in laughing my head off about this.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 05-12-2015, 02:31 PM
Diplo's Avatar
Diplo Diplo is offline
Binglebottom
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 520
Default

Sorry, y'all. What's available here has no appeal for me. The character designs are charmless anime fodder and the musical samples are awful. I still don't get how Yamane has progressed from dynamic stuff like her Lament of Innocence score to this, where, composition aside, the instrumentation sounds excruciatingly flat and amateurish.

I think Symphony of the Night was as much a product of its time -- the mid/late 90s, when Konami kinda didn't know what to do with Castlevania, and also when the explorative, non-level-based structure limited to a castle was new for the series -- as it was a product of its team members' skill. People have been clamoring for a Symphony of the Night successor for years with the misguided assumption that the main thing holding the handheld games back was their being handheld. I know that this is extremely assumptive, but I feel like this game is going to come out and it's going to be about as well-remembered as Odin Sphere or something.

Also, as much as I know people have had a hard time figuring out what exactly Igarashi has ever been explicitly responsible for in the games beyond SotN (despite there being an equal or greater determination to make him out to be singularly responsible for their creation, both by supporters and detractors, because that makes praise and hate easier), my impression of him is that he's kinda half-clueless about game design, but has traditionally been supported by a personal enthusiasm and good artists and musicians. He's the sort of game designer and overseer who will obsess over super slick character control and Konami collectibles while the rest of the game suffers (Order of Ecclesia somewhat bucked this trend, but it was too little too late).

So it's weird to see him being revered by the media as a figure of considerable design-based knowledge, and it's also weird to see him say in the Kickstarter video that his games are known for their "depth and complexity." They're not. KCET's exploratory Castlevanias -- some of which I like a lot! -- are pretty shallow games that are remarkable for their wealth of "superfluous" details and, at their best, great visual and audio assets.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 05-12-2015, 02:37 PM
BeeZee's Avatar
BeeZee BeeZee is offline
Horrendous Space Kablooie
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,243
Default

The thing I'm the most curious about is that the IGAvania games usually have really flat, monster-closety level design, but then you have designers who worked on Mega Man 9 working on Bloodstained. Level design has always been the most lacking thing in IGAvanias, but it's something that IntiCreates understands really well. If they can marry good level design with the aesthetics and charm of the open-world Castlevanias, this will be a fantastic game.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 05-12-2015, 02:49 PM
dosboot's Avatar
dosboot dosboot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,380
Default

I would like a concrete definition of monster closets, monster shelves, etc. I know that complaint comes up a lot with the post-SoTN Igavanias and I understand what it refers to in general, but the dividing line is maddeningly vague to me. Given how many significant differences there are between SoTN and the post-SoTN sequels, I'm curious to understand how this particular detail has taken such a large priority for some.

Also, I'm going to mention that the name "Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night" wins my approval for having a subtitle. When the first game in a new IP doesn't have a subtitle, it makes it more difficult to do internet searches and it requires being careful in discussions (like why everyone so often is forced to say "Zelda 1" or "the original Super Mario Bros").
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 05-12-2015, 02:54 PM
Kishi's Avatar
Kishi Kishi is offline
Little Waves
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,261
Default

That two-hour video of him commentating on Symphony convinced me that he at least understands why that game is amazing. I don't think the format was holding back the portable games; it was Konami forcing him to churn them out on absurd schedules and shoestring budgets. I'm not going to set myself up for disappointment by expecting this game to be better than Symphony, but I am hoping it'll be better than those.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 05-12-2015, 02:55 PM
Vaeran's Avatar
Vaeran Vaeran is online now
whatever it takes
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Pronouns: he/him
Posts: 8,033
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dosboot View Post
I would like a concrete definition of monster closets, monster shelves, etc. I know that complaint comes up a lot and understand what it refers to in general, but it is maddeningly vague to me. Given how many significant differences there are between SoTN and the post-SoTN sequels, I'm curious to understand how this particular detail has taken such a large priority for some.
I've always understood "monster closet" to mean anything that generates or inserts (possibly infinite) enemies into the level without any actual geometry for them to have been occupying. Like a part of the background that's shaped like a door but is non-interactive, and zombies pour out of it.

Never heard "monster shelf."
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 05-12-2015, 02:58 PM
dosboot's Avatar
dosboot dosboot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,380
Default

Yeah, that's what monster closet refers to in the context of, say, Doom. I think BeeZee was just rephrasing "monster shelf" which specifically refers to metroidvanias/2D sidescrollers where the monsters aren't placed on interesting terrain or integrated into the level. The intended picture is something like a vertical shaft where you have a featureless platform for each enemy.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 05-12-2015, 02:59 PM
Kishi's Avatar
Kishi Kishi is offline
Little Waves
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,261
Default

In Symphony of the Night, the Amalaric Sniper enemies are placed in the chapel towers, where you have little footing and are forced to recover from a long way down if you don't deftly avoid their arrows. They're integrated into the level design.

In Portrait of Ruin, the same enemies are placed in the chapel area, because theming...but they're just hanging out in flat hallways. That's "monsters on shelves."
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:04 PM
Vaeran's Avatar
Vaeran Vaeran is online now
whatever it takes
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Pronouns: he/him
Posts: 8,033
Default

Got it. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:04 PM
BeeZee's Avatar
BeeZee BeeZee is offline
Horrendous Space Kablooie
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,243
Default

Maybe "monster shelf" is more appropriate.

The IGAvania games don't have very careful level design, basically, at least not on a room-by-room basis. There's not a lot of platforming. There aren't a lot of non-enemy obstacles, and there aren't a lot of gimmicks to interact with. Enemies usually aren't placed very carefully, and they aren't made to work with the environment in any particular way.

I think the Double Fine video explains a lot of this. IGA's definition of level design seems to mostly be about aesthetics and how the different areas fit together. He's very interested in little, small details, but not so much in "level design" as we'd normally define it.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:11 PM
Egarwaen's Avatar
Egarwaen Egarwaen is offline
Inherently Stealthy
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sebastopol, CA
Posts: 15,354
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeZee View Post
I think the Double Fine video explains a lot of this. IGA's definition of level design seems to mostly be about aesthetics and how the different areas fit together. He's very interested in little, small details, but not so much in "level design" as we'd normally define it.
Maybe "aesthetic design"?
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:32 PM
Diplo's Avatar
Diplo Diplo is offline
Binglebottom
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeZee View Post
The thing I'm the most curious about is that the IGAvania games usually have really flat, monster-closety level design, but then you have designers who worked on Mega Man 9 working on Bloodstained. Level design has always been the most lacking thing in IGAvanias, but it's something that IntiCreates understands really well. If they can marry good level design with the aesthetics and charm of the open-world Castlevanias, this will be a fantastic game.
I'm curious about that too. But I think we also should remember that all of the Igavanias had evolving directors and "map artists" (i.e., level designers). So, there was some consistent guiding force there that made the games -- excepting SotN, which I think has a different, better approach to its environments' make-up (planning to turn this into an article soon) -- have a pretty uniform, and uninspiring, approach to level design. Was that consistent guiding force Igarashi? Again, it's hard to say.

Also, in my opinion, aesthetics -- specifically, the environments' look and the music's quality -- have been incredibly, even vitally, crucial to these games' staying power. I simply wouldn't care about Symphony of the Night if its pop-"gothic" fantasy weren't executed with what I find to be some of the most, if not the most, beautiful pixel background art ever done, and if the soundtrack weren't so much fun to hear. So if Bloodstained is going to look like a gaudy anime nightmare complemented by a dried out Yamane and co., I'm just not going to be able to emotionally invest in it, even if it's the most mechanically capable thing with decent-to-good level design.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:37 PM
dosboot's Avatar
dosboot dosboot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,380
Default

So far, this is the part I understand about monster shelves. What is vague to me is how many of the enemy placements in SoTN do or do not qualify as being integrated and what is the dividing line.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:43 PM
Lilfut's Avatar
Lilfut Lilfut is offline
Espurrs are proud.
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,557
Default

I'm cautiously optimistic about this game just because there hasn't been a good indie Metroidvania in years or possibly ever - I don't know if IGA can break the curse.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:44 PM
aturtledoesbite's Avatar
aturtledoesbite aturtledoesbite is offline
earthquake ace
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Pronouns: Any
Posts: 17,175
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilfut View Post
I'm cautiously optimistic about this game just because there hasn't been a good indie Metroidvania in years or possibly ever - I don't know if IGA can break the curse.
Someone hasn't been paying attention to Axiom Verge.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:52 PM
Googleshng's Avatar
Googleshng Googleshng is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 16,245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aturtledoesbite View Post
Someone hasn't been paying attention to Axiom Verge.
Someone has an incredibly broken sarcasm detector.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 05-12-2015, 04:04 PM
Andrew's Avatar
Andrew Andrew is offline
#2 Aero the Acro-Bat Fan
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,160
Default

So within 24 hours we already have complaining about the game that doesn't exist yet. Never change, internet people.

Anyway, how was that Wii U version of Aria of Sorrow, BTW?
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 05-12-2015, 04:05 PM
Lilfut's Avatar
Lilfut Lilfut is offline
Espurrs are proud.
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aturtledoesbite View Post
Someone hasn't been paying attention to Axiom Verge.
I haven't. Given that I hadn't heard of the dev and the screenshots I've seen don't excite me, I don't really want to spend money on such an unknown. the main character literally has simon belmont's face how did they get away with this
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 05-12-2015, 04:07 PM
Mogri's Avatar
Mogri Mogri is offline
Yes, let's feast!
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Pronouns: he
Posts: 16,008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilfut View Post
See also: Cave Story, Guacamelee, lots of games, have you been paying attention
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 05-12-2015, 04:18 PM
Lilfut's Avatar
Lilfut Lilfut is offline
Espurrs are proud.
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogri View Post
See also: Cave Story, Guacamelee, lots of games, have you been paying attention
Cave Story never really felt like a Metroidvania to me. Guacamelee I'll give you, though.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 05-12-2015, 04:22 PM
SpoonyGundam's Avatar
SpoonyGundam SpoonyGundam is online now
The Great
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,491
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TE-Ryan View Post
And my home PC most likely won't run the game if it's so fancy that it can't run on anything less than an XBone/PS4.
It's not that the game can't run on anything else hardware-wise, it's just that XBone/PS4/PC is the easiest to develop for because they're all basically the same thing. Porting to PS3/Vita/Wii U/3DS would take extra work because they aren't just PCs under the hood. This is why Wii U is a stretch goal.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 05-12-2015, 05:01 PM
R.R. Bigman's Avatar
R.R. Bigman R.R. Bigman is offline
Family Man
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Knoxville! Knoxville! Knoxville!
Posts: 9,506
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeZee View Post
Maybe "monster shelf" is more appropriate.

The IGAvania games don't have very careful level design, basically, at least not on a room-by-room basis. There's not a lot of platforming. There aren't a lot of non-enemy obstacles, and there aren't a lot of gimmicks to interact with. Enemies usually aren't placed very carefully, and they aren't made to work with the environment in any particular way.

I think the Double Fine video explains a lot of this. IGA's definition of level design seems to mostly be about aesthetics and how the different areas fit together. He's very interested in little, small details, but not so much in "level design" as we'd normally define it.


I really liked this game, but goddamn!
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 05-12-2015, 05:06 PM
Diplo's Avatar
Diplo Diplo is offline
Binglebottom
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
So within 24 hours we already have complaining about the game that doesn't exist yet. Never change, internet people.
But it's okay to get excited about a game that doesn't exist yet! What a funny double standard. One billion responses everywhere else of "Metroidvanias ftw shut up and take my money" but one deviation that hardly fits into the mold of gamers' rage-tinged entitlement and it's "Never change, internet people." I responded to the available material, and gave some opinions based on precedents I'd observed. If other people are allowed to have positive reactions which inform their financial support or interest, I think I'm allowed to do the same with my more skeptical or negative reactions.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 05-12-2015, 05:08 PM
BeeZee's Avatar
BeeZee BeeZee is offline
Horrendous Space Kablooie
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,243
Default

I honestly kinda like Ruvas Forest, because it has semi-careful enemy placement despite its flatness, especially on Hard mode. But yeah -- total IGAvania layout.

The KickStarter says a Mega Man 9 producer is working on this. Fingers crossed.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 05-12-2015, 05:14 PM
Kairu's Avatar
Kairu Kairu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,088
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.R. Bigman View Post


I really liked this game, but goddamn!
So an improvement would be... limiting the enemies to ones that make sense in a forest? Say wolves, bats... and I'm not sure what else from the existing sprite catalog would have worked though I'm sure there were others.

I would agree it'd certainly improve the level thematically as some of the monsters in that video certainly seem out of place. I do wonder if the suspected budget limitations played a fairly large part in it.

If you are in large part limited to reusing sprites its going to be hard to fit them into new and interesting locations compared to the games from which they were sourced and purpose designed for. Though the DS games certainly suffer from area reuse to some degree as well... but if your setting is always a Gothic castle of some kind (and maybe the surrounding area) I guess you kind of limit yourself to what areas thematically work in the game as a whole.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 05-12-2015, 05:35 PM
conchobhar's Avatar
conchobhar conchobhar is offline
What's Shenmue?
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Snowy climes of Canada
Pronouns: He/Him
Posts: 3,025
Default

Ecclesia is a weird one, I think, because it has both some of the sloppiest, most boxy level design and out-of-place enemies in the series; but also some of the most clever gimmicks and enemy placement... and sometimes even at the same time! I'm thinking about the prison island, specifically, with its big, wide box-rooms with searchlights that require careful manoeuvering to avoid (lest a really strong enemy show up); or the long, box-corridors with high and low paths both patrolled by spear guards (meaning you have to pay attention to both paths, no matter which you take).

To me, it felt like IGA's team was looking to really pay attention to level design, but didn't quite have the time or budget to see that through.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 05-12-2015, 05:43 PM
Mogri's Avatar
Mogri Mogri is offline
Yes, let's feast!
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Pronouns: he
Posts: 16,008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilfut View Post
Cave Story never really felt like a Metroidvania to me.
What an odd thing to say. I suppose there's not much backtracking in Cave Story, but I don't know how else you'd classify it.

For a more straightforward example, La-Mulana. That's a hard one to recommend unreservedly, I'll admit.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bloodroids , bloodsmudged , bloodstainia , castlemania , castleroids , castlestainia , castlevania , castlevania 6-5000 , draculoids , hulkamania , igavania , mega zan , metroidstainia , metroidvania , monster girl fetish fuel , stained glass ceiling , vaniavania , water balloons , wrestlevania

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts İyou, 2007