The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about TV and film

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-20-2017, 02:08 PM
SpoonyBardOL's Avatar
SpoonyBardOL SpoonyBardOL is offline
I. Love. It.
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Newfie Land
Posts: 15,126
Default Saving Archie for Season 2, Let's talk about The Punisher!

Am I the only one who is hoping that Netflix and Marvel somehow, somehow, manages to have a Punisher/Riverdale crossover so it can bring this to life? Ya'll have to want that too, right?

No?

Anyway, The Punisher, Marvel's latest Netflix series (we get 3 his year!) recently hit the service and we should talk about it! There's already been some talk in the Marvel movie thread, but unlike Iron Fist this series actually deserves its own thread.

I think it's pretty ok???

I dunno, I've seen a lot of pre-emptive, and post-emptive (is that a thing?) grumbling about the series, and I guess this past year has not as kind to the Marvel/Netflix series with the almost-good Defenders and not-at-all-good Iron Fist we previously sat through. But I'm three episodes in with The Punisher and I mostly like it. The good outweighs the bad so far, I think!

The Good: They got Castle's big revenge spree that he was building up to at the end of DD S2 out of the way in an opening montage and the series properly opens with him just trying to get through every day, working at a job where he can take out his aggression on some featureless concrete walls (a fixation Fisk might appreciate... a Fiskation....), eventually stuff happens and some peoples need some Punishment so the Punisher has to do some Punishering again. But thus far, aside from the opening montage, most of the violence so far has been non-gun related (most of it) and is mostly Frank just being an overall badass, either physically (construction site brawl) or with his cunning (stringing Micro along).

The Bad: There's a few too many flashbacks to SMILING ANGELIC DEAD WIFE and the morning she and his kids were killed. Seriously, the same damn flashback. I can't even remember what her name is, but it hardly matters because all we need to know is that she's SMILING ANGELIC DEAD WIFE and Frank was really fond of her because she was angelic and smiled a lot I guess. And she's dead now. Aaaaaaaaaangst!

The... OK?: Showing the fallout of PTSD on soldiers after coming home and how they're often discarded is mostly good stuff, but it's hit or miss sometimes. The moment when Lewis nearly shot his father was short but intense, but on the other hand NRA douchebag is like a blatant parody of paranoid right-wingers and I don't think he adds much to the series, yet anyway.

But mostly, overall, I like it, I think it's alright. What I've seen so far is at least as good as the good half of DD S2, which possibly not-coincidentally was the half that featured Frank, so we'll see!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-20-2017, 02:23 PM
Vaeran's Avatar
Vaeran Vaeran is online now
whatever it takes
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,937
Default

I'm also three episodes deep and while it's not bad so far, the pattern of these Netflix Marvel shows fills me with a certainty that I'll be positively writhing with impatience by episode 9 while the show is still endlessly spinning its wheels to make it to 13. The slow burn makes each episode feel like a much bigger time commitment than it actually is. While Jon Bernthal is great in the role and the Punisher was one of the best parts of Daredevil S2, I'm still not convinced there's enough to him to carry his own series. I'm starting to get a little tired of hearing about his dead family all the time, and that's a bad sign. The supporting cast is pretty good, though, and I like Micro a lot, so we'll see.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:11 PM
Dracula's Avatar
Dracula Dracula is online now
Video Monster
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: If you go in the direction of the arrow.
Posts: 2,892
Default

The only context I have for the Punisher is this:



and I'm guessing this netflix show does not live up to that experience
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:25 PM
YangusKhan's Avatar
YangusKhan YangusKhan is offline
does the Underpants Dance
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,837
Default

I made fun of this line from episode 1:

Quote:
Now the only person you're punishing is yourself.
but nothing this stupid has been uttered since then, so that's nice.

I'm liking the show. I'm worried that Lewis is going to become some kind of Comic Book Thing instead of just this troubled veteran kid that gets in to some shit.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:35 PM
Deptford's Avatar
Deptford Deptford is offline
Fifth Business
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,727
Default

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:48 PM
The Raider Dr. Jones's Avatar
The Raider Dr. Jones The Raider Dr. Jones is offline
Oily Butt Thing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Bull City
Posts: 10,569
Default

in re: Castle's war buddy turned Blackwater dude, he already has HEEL TURN IN WAITING tattooed on his forehead more or less, but really, why did they have to call him Billy Russo and make it that much more obvious?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:52 PM
Wendell's Avatar
Wendell Wendell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,085
Default

I've only seen the first episode, but I liked it. It did a good job of making me want to see those jerks get punished.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:39 PM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

I've shotgunned the first 3 episodes.

I don't MIND the slow burn per say, but OH MY GOD IT IS SUCH A SLOW BURN.

Like

The first episode had a whole plot with a beginning and end about punisher working a job he hates and saving a punk kid who has no idea which pocket he's supposed to keep his wallet in! That was a story we could focus on that moved the BIG PLOT along a little and had a beginning middle and end!

But then episodes 2 and three were just the BIG PLOT getting moved along a little.

It's like.

You don't have to move the BIG PLOT just a little! You could move it a lot! OR you could give us a LITTLE PLOT for us to watch and enjoy that moves the big plot a little!

But JUST moving the big plot a little?

It's like UUUGGGH HURRY THE FUCK UP OMG
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-20-2017, 07:14 PM
Wendell's Avatar
Wendell Wendell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,085
Default

Every single one of these Marvel shows has felt like they were forced to have 13 episodes when they only actually had a plan for around 8. In Jessica Jones they repeat plot events, in Daredevil (and Punisher it sounds like!) things slow to a crawl, in Luke Cage they kill their absolutely fantastic antagonist and replace him with one of the worst of all time.

They gotta rethink this!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:02 PM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

HOO BOY.
AND HERE I WAS THINKING LUKE CAGE WAS THE HIGH POINT IN MARVEL NETFLIX MUDDLED MESSAGES.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:04 PM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY MARVEL?

WHADAFUQ ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?!?!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:27 PM
Deptford's Avatar
Deptford Deptford is offline
Fifth Business
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,727
Default

Y'got me curious, but curious enough to watch Netflix's Marvel's The Punisher?

I just don't know.

I might continue to post arbitrary other Punisher stuff in the meantime, regardless.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-21-2017, 12:24 AM
YangusKhan's Avatar
YangusKhan YangusKhan is offline
does the Underpants Dance
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,837
Default

I don't have any frame of reference for what makes a good Punisher story arc because all the movies were inconsequential dumb fun. But it hasn't shit the bed yet and I'm halfway through the show.

I think some of its strength is that it's not dealing with any comic book bullshit at all. There are no ninjas or ancient cabal organizations or magic drugs or dude with a glowing fist. But compared to other spy/military thrillers? I dunno, those aren't really my genre. Micro and Frank have some pretty good chemistry and it feels like a unique relationship in this Marvelverse because they're not all...quippy at each other. Like, it's really just two guys who get on each other's nerves easily.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-21-2017, 05:21 AM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

They're not quippy because they're not happy.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:15 AM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

Okay so the entire PTSD VETRAN ARC is just, arrrgh.

So ONE LEGGED MAN who's friends with Frank runs a vetrans support group has two distinct guys in it. ASSHOLE GUN NUT and SHELLSHOCKED KID. Literally everybody else in the group is just background.

ASSHOLE always goes to the meetings to talk about how tough I had it in nam and how ppl spit on mee when I got back and how I'm a silver star and how you all are pussies who forgot what it means to be MEN and how the government wants to take your guns away and how much he enjoys being openly racist. KID is just meek and tired and freaked out all the time. ONE LEGGED MAN just sort of rolls with it all.

KID starts getting more shell-shocked than usual! ASSHOLE capitalizes on this and drags KID off to protest for more guns in front of city hall. This results in an absolutely mind-blowingly backwards case of POLICE CORRUPTION that absofuckinglutely deserves it's own post I'll write later but the takeaway is that ASSHOLE bails on KID the second shit gets real and kid goes to jail. ONE LEGGED MAN bails KID out, and tells him that ASSHOLE is an asshole.

...AN ASSHOLE THAT WAS LYING ABOUT HIS MILITARY SERVICE OMG!

So KID confronts ASSHOLE like "hey you didn't even get deployed you just did basic training and then the war ended" and ASSHOLE is like that sounds like a JEW LIE also check out my cool knife HI-YAH! and they fight and then KID wins and stabs the shit out of ASSHOLE the end.

None of that had Any impact on any of the main characters at all.

Nothing! Nada! None! The punisher doesn't even know these people exist! Punisher's one friend who's probably a bad guy met one of them briefly! Punisher's other friend talked to kid once or twice and was running the group these guys were in but it doesn't matter because one of them's going to jail and the other one's dead! THIS DID NOT AFFECT THE ACTUAL PLOT OF THE SERIES AT ALL.

That would not be something to complain if any part of it was compelling or interesting on it's own, but it's just not! The whole thing was just awful and distracting, and serves no purpose that to make ONE LEGGED GUY seem really bad at his job! Like, you run a Veterans Support Circle, where the most disruptive, openly sneering, racist, hateful member is a guy that you KNOW never actually served! SO WHY ARE YOU ALLOWING HIM TO BE HERE? He does nothing but disrupt your group and keep people who DO fulfill the criteria for being a part of your Veterans support group from getting the attention they need! This guy's not a veteran! He's just some asshole who lies about being a Veteran! AND YOU KNOW THIS! SO WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU LETTING HIM COME TO YOUR SUPPORT GROUP EVERY EVENING WHERE HE DOES NOTHING BUT MOCK ACTUAL VETERANS WHO CAME FOR ACTUAL SUPPORT?!

And then the PROTEST scene, just. Mother of fucker what were they THINKING.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:21 AM
Dracula's Avatar
Dracula Dracula is online now
Video Monster
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: If you go in the direction of the arrow.
Posts: 2,892
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YangusKhan View Post
I think some of its strength is that it's not dealing with any comic book bullshit at all. There are no ninjas or ancient cabal organizations or magic drugs or dude with a glowing fist.
...gotta say, these two sentences are doing a great job of deterring me from ever watching NETFLIX's The Punisher
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:45 AM
The Raider Dr. Jones's Avatar
The Raider Dr. Jones The Raider Dr. Jones is offline
Oily Butt Thing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Bull City
Posts: 10,569
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY MARVEL?

WHADAFUQ ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?!?!
yeah, I dunno. like I was saying in the other thread the point of the punisher comics is that violence is not a solution, and frank's crusade is really a personal obsession that has left him trapped in a hell of his own creation. (garth ennis took the character to his logical conclusion in punisher: the end, where frank kills the last remaining representatives of the human race.) maybe the show will go somewhere I don't expect but the first third or so seems to suggest that no, we will reach a solution once frank does the right violence.

meanwhile I just realized that evil homeland security boss is fuckin C. Thomas Howell, dude has aged pretty well since the '80s.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:22 AM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
HOO BOY.
AND HERE I WAS THINKING LUKE CAGE WAS THE HIGH POINT IN MARVEL NETFLIX MUDDLED MESSAGES.
So okay then. THAT ONE FUCKING SCENE. I'm not going to bother with spoilerpops or spoilertext on this one because 1.) it lasts all of two minutes and has literally no impact on the plot proper, and 2.) this bit was so broke-brained and wrong-headed, I could see citing it as a reason to skip the show altogether. You don't wanna read this? Mousewheel and look away.

Okay.

Do you remember that one bit in Luke Cage? You know the one. The one where EVIL NIGHTCLUB LADY cited Black Lives Matter as a REASON to give the cops SUPER MACHINE GUNS FROM SPACE? And it was the dumbest moment in the entire MCU just for how completely and totally it managed to drop the ball on working REAL WORLD TOPICAL ISSUES into the plot? And you were like "Woah, I thought The sudden racist against people who got super-scienced in Jessica Jones was bad, but Marvel will definitely never top this for ham-handed wrong-headededness."

Hoo boy.

So as anyone who's not lived under a rock for the entirety of 2017 knows, people are pretty mad at police who fucking suck lately. "Isn't it odd" they reasonably ask, "how the police all stand in an orderly line to protect a bunch of racist Sociopaths screaming that the government is trying to take their guns away and talking about how much they want all the Jews to die? And then when people who disagree with Nazis show up to say that they disagree, they are treated as much more of a threat? Also boy there have been a lot of instances of Body cam footage CLEARLY showing those cops inventing reasons to arrest those protesters under false pretenses!" And having made those observations, the people of 2017 collectively agreed that corrupt police unfairly targeting and arresting protesters was something they cared about.

"WE HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR, PEOPLE OF 2017!" said the writers of Marvel's the Punisher only on Netflix. "WE WILL MAKE OUR SHOW TOPICAL AND CURRENT BY INCLUDING CORRUPT COPS UNFAIRLY TARGETING PROTESTERS!" And so they had the cops accuse a protester of reaching for his gun! And then arrested him under false pretenses!

A protester... that was arguing for more guns, who was claiming that Jews were the reason everything sucked. A protester who was basically the show's stand-in for someone at risk for becoming a neo-Nazi. The fucking guys handing out pamphlets with the URL for Info Wars Dot Com and shouting that the TRUE most oppressed group in America today was the White Christian Male. THAT was the guy that the show decided would be the victim of police corruption.

It's just like.

Why is this even IN your show about a bargain bin John Wick? All it does it move forward the dumb subplot I went over in my spoilery post, a subplot that could have been moved forward to it's utterly pointless conclusion in any number of ways that DIDN'T needlessly twist a topical issue facing America today into an unrecognizable mess of muddled message! You could cut that entire subplot and the show would lose absolutely nothing.

What the fuck were you trying to say, Marvel?

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Last edited by BEAT; 11-21-2017 at 11:29 PM. Reason: BARGAIN BIN NOT BARGAIN BASEMENT OMG BEAT LEARN HOW TO ENGLISH.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:33 AM
SpoonyBardOL's Avatar
SpoonyBardOL SpoonyBardOL is offline
I. Love. It.
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Newfie Land
Posts: 15,126
Default

I haven't gotten that far yet, but yeah, all this sounds very.... not good.

Like, I don't even know how they drop the ball so hard on what should be so simple. But I suppose after that one scene from Luke Cage we shouldn't be surprised anymore, and every Marvel Netflix show will possibly feature its own 'that one scene'.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:40 AM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

It's literally 2 minutes long and you could argue that it makes sense in context. I mean, Asshole cop's gonna asshole cop. Asshole cop doesn't care.

But it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:46 AM
Vaeran's Avatar
Vaeran Vaeran is online now
whatever it takes
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,937
Default

It's times like this that make you remember that the guy in charge of Marvel's TV division (but not the movies, fortunately) is a pro-Trump creep.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:48 AM
YangusKhan's Avatar
YangusKhan YangusKhan is offline
does the Underpants Dance
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,837
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
They're not quippy because they're not happy.
Daredevil and Jessica Jones aren't exactly on the happy end either. My point is just that every one of these shows has the same feel to its main character dynamics (like the movies do too), but that is different in this show.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:00 AM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeran View Post
It's times like this that make you remember that the guy in charge of Marvel's TV division (but not the movies, fortunately) is a pro-Trump creep.
It wasn't really a TRUMP ROOLZ moment tho? I mean, right wing asshole is consistently portrayed as an asshole and a coward and a liar and anybody watching would have to agree that he's just the worst.

It was just... weird.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:02 AM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

Also why is everybody so mean to the guy who looks kinda like Charlie Day if you squint?



Every single character is like "Man FUCK that guy" and giving him Charlie Work and his new boss who's supposed to be working with him on their sting doesn't help him at all until he's presenting the plan to everyone else at which point she "helps" him by humiliating him publicly.

And I'm just like.

Hey quit being mean to Charlie.

Last edited by BEAT; 11-21-2017 at 09:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:18 AM
YangusKhan's Avatar
YangusKhan YangusKhan is offline
does the Underpants Dance
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,837
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
...gotta say, these two sentences are doing a great job of deterring me from ever watching NETFLIX's The Punisher
I meaaaaan, these shows don't have the best track record at making the Comic Book Stuff actually entertaining. Ninjas and The Hand were some of the worst parts of this entire endeavor, the super magic guns in Luke Cage were inoffensive I guess, Danny's Iron Fist was horribly underutilized...
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:20 AM
The Raider Dr. Jones's Avatar
The Raider Dr. Jones The Raider Dr. Jones is offline
Oily Butt Thing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Bull City
Posts: 10,569
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
Hey quit being mean to Charlie.
What I think is going on there: the two cops are adaptations of joke characters in a Punisher comic story from a while back, where Hapless Loser Guy Cop and Super Hotshot Lady Cop are given the job of catching the Punisher. The TV show has taken that basic template and tried to make it halfway serious, but without giving up entirely on the notion that dude cop is there to get dumped on for comic relief.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:23 AM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

Yeah, like, you get the idea that he's supposed to be the dude who lightens the mood, but instead he's just a modestly competent (but not AMAZINGLY BRILLIANT) guy who's doing all the work for none of the credit and has all the very reasonable objections to all the bullshit HOTSHOT COP wants to do that would never work out for her if she wasn't in a TV show.

And it's just like...

YA KNOW?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:25 PM
YangusKhan's Avatar
YangusKhan YangusKhan is offline
does the Underpants Dance
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,837
Default

Finished episode 8 now. So far the show hasn't really been spinning its wheels the same way all the other shows did? I was legit pretty tense at the end of episode 7 and wanted to see what would happen next. I suppose this is about the time when the others shows started to lose steam though, so I'm watching out for that. It's got 1 subplot that doesn't have anything to do with Frank (yet???), but that's basically it, and that subplot is definitely serving as some kind of foil/parallel/commentary to Frank's story anyway so I am invested in it for that reason. I mean shit, it has a scene with that kid putting a gun in his mouth right after he has a really shitty day of killing that MAGA dude and a devastatingly sad conversation with his dad. That was some pretty emotional shit!

My take on the BEAT-RAGE scene:

They really could have done something different to get that kid arrested and have the loser MAGA asshole still demonstrate his cowardice, but if BEAT hadn't pointed out the problematic trappings of having a corrupt cop arrest the formative neo-Nazi kid, I doubt I would have even thought about it at all.

Also BEAT, the MAGA veteran still served in the army, he just lied about going to Vietnam and is making up a lot of his faux-outrage because of that. By the time Curtis discovered the truth about this loser, Lewis was already on the path to kill him in his rage fit, so we don't really know if Curtis would've let the guy come to future meetings.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-22-2017, 03:44 AM
Olli T's Avatar
Olli T Olli T is offline
concentrate
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 8,364
Default


sauce: https://twitter.com/gokunaruto67/sta...96780248682496
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-22-2017, 08:03 AM
BEAT's Avatar
BEAT BEAT is offline
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SKELETON HELL.
Posts: 22,020
Default

GokuNaruto67 is one of the most underrated twitters.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gait detection software , marvel , marvel cinematic universe , netflix , smiling angelic dead wife , the punisher , welcome back frank

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts İyou, 2007