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  #1291  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:30 PM
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Also, riffing on "law and order" isn't just a swing at conservative rhetoric generally, it's a direct shot at President Nixon.
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  #1292  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:58 PM
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I love that. I think I just generally love when I see ornery characters like JJJ stand up for something.
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  #1293  
Old 12-04-2017, 03:01 PM
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Also, riffing on "law and order" isn't just a swing at conservative rhetoric generally, it's a direct shot at President Nixon.
Marvel sure had some rage for Nixon. Steve Englehart had a thinly-veiled Nixon-alog attempt a coup to seize absolute power and commit suicide when thwarted by Cap.
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  #1294  
Old 12-04-2017, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
I love that. I think I just generally love when I see ornery characters like JJJ stand up for something.
I think this is a retcon, but it's been mentioned that JJJ was a strong supporter of the civil rights movement and used the Bugle to advocate for it. Similarly, his hatred of Spider-Man was once explained as a lingering hostility towards masked men after experiences with the KKK.
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  #1295  
Old 12-04-2017, 04:48 PM
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I wanna say Aunt May had a rap sheet for resisting arrest during antiwar protests, but that might be the Ultimate version I'm thinking of.
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  #1296  
Old 12-04-2017, 04:50 PM
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I definitely remember some early issues of Spider-Man that engaged with civil rights.
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  #1297  
Old 12-04-2017, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by conchobhar View Post
I think this is a retcon, but it's been mentioned that JJJ was a strong supporter of the civil rights movement and used the Bugle to advocate for it. Similarly, his hatred of Spider-Man was once explained as a lingering hostility towards masked men after experiences with the KKK.
JJJ has frequently been depicted as a stand-up guy when it comes to anything other than Spider-Man, his one blind spot. I remember the (generally terrible) 90s X-Men storyline "Operation Zero Tolerance" using him as the newspaperman doing diligent work to expose the anti-mutant government programs.
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  #1298  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:21 PM
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And there's that moment in the Spider-Man movie when the Goblin tries to make him reveal who takes the pictures of Spider-Man and JJJ lies to protect Peter without missing a beat.
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  #1299  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:04 PM
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I get the impression that JJJ is very big on the system working, but that it only works if the people it serves make it work. Accountability, rule of law, community, all that jazz. But since Spider-Man is an outlaw in that he literally operates outside the law (however much good he does to the community), JJJ won't sacrifice even one bit of his principles to allow him, hence, "He's a menace!"

It doesn't help that Spidey also mocks him every chance he gets.

I doubt he feels the same way about other MCU'ers with public identities, private jobs (like Iron Man being Tony's "bodyguard" for decades), or deputized positions acknowledged by the government.
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  #1300  
Old 12-05-2017, 02:07 PM
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I get the impression that JJJ is very big on the system working, but that it only works if the people it serves make it work. Accountability, rule of law, community, all that jazz.
There's a terrific page in Daredevil: Born Again where JJJ talks to Ben Urich about how much he hates the Kingpin.
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  #1301  
Old 12-05-2017, 06:06 PM
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This amazing sequence is from in the second ever issue of Captain America, from 1941:





Thank you, Jack Kirby. (Also, it's insane to think that Jack Kirby created Captain America, then fought in WWII.)
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  #1302  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:08 PM
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I want to believe Bucky never, ever, ever, even with all the Winter Soldier conditioning, forgot that Cap made him wear that suit.
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  #1303  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:39 PM
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I knew all about the Daredevil connection in the TMNT origins, but I didn't realize Baxter Stockman destroyed the FF's headquarters too. I guess it makes more sense why his name is Baxter now though.
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  #1304  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:26 AM
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I knew all about the Daredevil connection in the TMNT origins, but I didn't realize Baxter Stockman destroyed the FF's headquarters too. I guess it makes more sense why his name is Baxter now though.
Now where will Deer Sdrahcir live?
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  #1305  
Old 12-12-2017, 02:35 PM
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  #1306  
Old 12-12-2017, 07:26 PM
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I was thinking of this thread when we went off on a goofy Marvel canon tangent during today's Retronauts East recording session.
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  #1307  
Old 12-17-2017, 07:02 AM
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Started reading the second volume of Essential Thor. Which marks roughly the point where Stan ceases caring about the book and it becomes progressively Kirbier.

Noteably in the first few issues, Thor interrupts the ongoing storyline about him trying to find some mystic stones that prove that Loki cheater when he beat him in the Trial of the Gods (which was a foot race that they use in place of litigation) and decides to hop over to Vietnam and fight for Our Boys over there.

This also brings up the idea that, while Thor is an ageless, all-powerful immortal, he isn’t actually bullet-proof.

Immediately after this, he is confronted by an animal poacher who wants to go after the biggest game of all and decides to bag himself a GOD!

In conclusion; I <3 Jack Kirby
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  #1308  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:40 PM
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Corrallary; in the middle of the introduction of THE DESTROYER (part-and-parcel with that poacher who decided to bag himself a deity) and a storyline involving The Absorbing Man running roughshod over Asgard, we have the introduction of The Demon.

And as noted before, 60s Marvel has a fairly problematic problem with Yellow Peril style villains, and he is one of those.

He is also a Vietnamese witch doctor (?!?!) who found a mystic Norn Stone and was this made Very Tall and Also Bad, and he decided to become a modern Genghis Khan.

So... at least the horrifying racism zigzagged a lot so you didn’t know which part to be more offended by?

And apparently Jack thought so too since Thor beat him off-panel after a solid issue spent wondering whether or not this was something he even wanted to be associated with.
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  #1309  
Old 12-19-2017, 03:57 AM
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Triple Post!!!

Following all that, Odin takes away some of Thor’s Power because the Allfather literally has nothing better to do with his time than complain about the women his son is dating, but he can’t bring himself to do the deed himself so he grants The OdinPower to Seidring The Merciless to punish his son on his behalf. Who then doesn’t give the OdinPower back because his name is Seidring the Merciless, so a weakened Thor has to deal with all that.

Meanwhile, Hercules signs a movie deal with a mysterious director named Pluto, who he does not recognize as his uncle because he’s wearing sunglasses, and he signs a contract that forces him to rule in Hell forever because he’s super dumb like that.

And, like that, Jack wins me back
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  #1310  
Old 12-19-2017, 08:43 AM
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Meanwhile, Hercules signs a movie deal with a mysterious director named Pluto, who he does not recognize as his uncle because he’s wearing sunglasses, and he signs a contract that forces him to rule in Hell forever because he’s super dumb like that.
This was the oldest Thor story available on Marvel Unlimited when I decided I wanted to read some Old Thor, and it is also possibly the best Thor story and the best Herc story.
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  #1311  
Old 12-19-2017, 09:36 AM
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Herc pretty much introduces himself as The Fun-Thor right out of the gate, and every time he and Thor see each other they immediately get into a fight so intense it requires divine intervention to stop.

The book doesn’t start getting worth paying attention to until TLes of Asgard starts (not that it’s a particularly great backup feature at first, but it’s still the beard-growing moment) but it doesn’t become great until Hercules debuts.
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  #1312  
Old 12-23-2017, 09:47 AM
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I had always been told, but I had never realized how much Kirby’s work on The Fourth World is owed to his run on Thor. Point in fact, calling it the Lee/Kirby run feels disingenuous at this point, there’s so little of the former and so much of the latter on the page. If anything, it feels like Kirby making fun of Stan’s favorite go-to plot devices, like everyone dismissing world-shaking events as “a nutty publicity stunt” (aliens conquer the earth and imprison the entire human race, and literally not a single person notices or cares), or his habit of dismissing powerful women because they aren’t dudes (every time Sif wants to do anything, everyone’s quick to tell her “Nay, thine beautiful flower of Asgard must nay’nt Come to harm, so spaketh Thor”, and she points out that she’s an immortal Asgardian War Goddess whose day job is to punch giant monsters to death. And then she punches a hole into something’s sternum.). At another point Thor needs to take a cab, and the cab driver looks exactly like Jack Kirby, and he proclaims him his very favorite superhero, so that was a bit less subtle.

And a number of the characters Kirby introduces once he takes over seem like direct analogs to 4th World Characters, really drives home the fact that he was doing his best to tell his own stories divorces of the context of working within a greater universe.

Also, during the arc that introduced Ego: The Living Planet, Thor does, in fact, punch an entire planet so hard it explodes. And, man, you’re kidding yourself if you think a sight like that is going to get a dismissive “tsk tsk” from me.
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  #1313  
Old 12-24-2017, 04:13 AM
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The middle of a storyline that shows Thor being stripped of most of his power by an (apparently?) possessed Odin, and Loki being freed from Limbo and abandoning all pretext and just opting to punch his brother to death while he’s defenseless, and Asgard helpless to intercede by Orin’s increasingly harsh pronouncements.

Yes, that’s the perfect time to take a break for a three issue story about the Circus of Crime.

There are, in theory at least, books where the Circus of Crime make perfectly suitable foes. They are not a good match up against Thor.
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  #1314  
Old 12-24-2017, 07:00 AM
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I don’t mean to keep multi-posting in this thread, but this book is transformative; just reached the introduction of The Wrecker. The villain whose superpower is “owns a crowbar”. And whose skill with that crowbar makes him “as dangerous as a man with a bazooka”, so says a police officer.

And then he accidentally gets actual super powers by accidentally stealing Loki’s power, but he still doesn’t seem inclined to do anything but rob people by threatening the with a crowbar.
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  #1315  
Old 12-24-2017, 08:26 AM
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That run on Thor is magical.

Do you intend to keep going after Kirby leaves the book?
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  #1316  
Old 12-24-2017, 08:34 AM
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I only have the first three Essential volumes, but assuming the next few aren’t expensive, I fully intend to.
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  #1317  
Old 12-24-2017, 09:14 AM
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I will be interested to see your impressions of the writing post-Kirby
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  #1318  
Old 12-24-2017, 09:30 AM
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Assuming it holds up to the early Thor, before Kirby knocked everyone aside and said “MINE!”, or the post Lee/Kirby FF... I am not too eager to hop right into that.

...might skip right ahead to rereading the Simonson run, if anything. Dudes Kirby-2

And looking at the prices of the next few on Amazon, I am calling it a day as soon as I’m done volume 3, it seems. They get pricey on the secondary market.
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  #1319  
Old 12-24-2017, 09:34 AM
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I remember a Roy Thomas (?) arc where he introduces accurate to the myths Norse Gods, but I don't remember how that turned out and I could never figure out why anyone would want that story.
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  #1320  
Old 12-24-2017, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Rascally Badger View Post
I remember a Roy Thomas (?) arc where he introduces accurate to the myths Norse Gods, but I don't remember how that turned out and I could never figure out why anyone would want that story.
Looking at his Wikipedia page, that would be late ‘70s, upper-200s issue numbering?

Yeah there’s a bunch of really strange stories in that range. I’m guessing you’re thinking of the run where Odin’s given one eye, and a bunch of accurate-to-myth goddesses we’d never seen before “return” to Asgard? Though in that same stretch there’s also:

- a retelling of the Ring Cycle, and how Thor went from being a mortal to wielding a hammer made from cursed gold.
- a story about how the gods of Asgard, including Thor, were born from the survivors of a prior mythic cycle

And I think a couple more along those lines? It really felt like Marvel was trying to simultaneously rescue Thor from the bad monster-of-the-month stories Lee had run for most of the ‘70s, fix the hideous sexism that had crept in, return to stories from Kirby’s time on the book, give it a Deep Continuity, and tie it more deeply into their emerging shared world.

And then issue #300 hits and the book blows up everything while resolving the Celestials storyline from the formerly-not-in-continuity-also-cancelled Eternals
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