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  #541  
Old 11-24-2017, 09:59 AM
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To its credit, 70s FF has that story where the Frightful Four had auditions in the Baxter Building to try to recruit a fourth member. And a story arc involving Galactus where he wound up dying from indigestion after eating The Impossible Mans homeworld.
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  #542  
Old 11-29-2017, 03:16 PM
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One of Angel's more iconic costumes was retconned into being elaborate trap an elaborate trap by Magneto to drain his energy.



(This is from an Avengers plotline from the dark era (between #66 and Giantsize) when other books were cleaning up lose X-Men plot threads while their own title was in reprints.)

I love the goofy panel in the bottom center. And Magneto's smug face in Angel pajamas during the initial reveal in the image below is also Very Good.



Despite it being a trap, he just . . . kept wearing wearing it on and off for a few decades, even after becoming Archangel.



Trying to imagine psychology here is pretty funny.

"Well, our arch nemesis gave me this as part of a trap to knock me out and mind-control our entire team and also half the Avengers, as part of a roundabout scheme to kill 90% of the population in order to maybe create some more mutants. So, I have to admit that I have some mixed feelings about it. On the other hand, I look great in blue and white with this little halo! He may have been using me as a pawn in a genocidal scheme, but I've got to hand it to him: the man knows fashion."
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  #543  
Old 11-29-2017, 04:58 PM
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Avengers Magneto does not square with X-Men Magneto. It's like trying to do a sincere and nuanced Dr. Doom. Doom needs to be broad strokes and loud proclamations, and Magneto as a general Marvel villain plays the same role. Look at Erik up there, all "I need to have your mutants". Magneto will threaten and intimidate humans all the ding-dong day; but Erik wants his brothers and sisters to join him willingly, for the cause of mutants or at least to validate his own dogma.
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  #544  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:24 PM
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I think it's more the era than whose book he's in. Those samples seem par for the course for Silver Age Magneto.

I'm loving these Silver Age glimpses, by the way! I don't know why, but the repeated instances of Angel being terrible are especially amusing to me. Probably because I've never found him interesting.
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  #545  
Old 11-30-2017, 09:02 PM
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i thought it was cool how in x-men evolution, angel just has a superhero costume he runs flies around in even though he's unaffiliated with the x-men and really doesn't even know other mutants/super powered beings exist

i also thought it was cool how magneto was like "You're special, you can fly!" even though it was season 2 and half the characters already introduced had flying as a secondary power
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  #546  
Old 11-30-2017, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Pajaro Pete View Post
i also thought it was cool how magneto was like "You're special, you can fly!" even though it was season 2 and half the characters already introduced had flying as a secondary power
Well, a similar problem developed over time in the comics, which is why they had to introduce other powers, such as healing blood.
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  #547  
Old 11-30-2017, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Beta Metroid View Post
I think it's more the era than whose book he's in. Those samples seem par for the course for Silver Age Magneto.
Yeah, the difference is mostly between pre-Claremont Magneto and post-Claremont Magneto.

The silver age X-Men was mostly a terrible comic that Lee & Kirby dashed off and abandoned before giving any of the characters personalities, or giving the book any reason to exist. X-Men was mostly offbrand D-List Fantastic Four, and Magneto was their offbrand D-List Doctor Doom. The mutant metaphor as it was later developed didn't really exist, and Claremont's reinvention of Magneto as a sympathetic character is closely tied into his development of that aspect of the series.

Even in the Claremont run, Magneto is still basically just generically evil in his first few appearances, even if he no longer literally monologues about how he's very evil.

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Originally Posted by Pajaro Pete View Post
i thought it was cool how in x-men evolution, angel just has a superhero costume he runs flies around in even though he's unaffiliated with the x-men and really doesn't even know other mutants/super powered beings exist
This is oddly true to the original run, where his origin depicted him as dressing up to do his own personal super-heroing as The Avenging Angel before meeting the X-Men.

Angel was Sailor V, basically.
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  #548  
Old 12-11-2017, 10:46 AM
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Claremont has struggled to give either Colossus or Storm a consistent or memorable personality, even pretty far into his run. I've reached the time Jean dies, and they're still basically blank slates. I am guessing this will start to get better soon. Now that Banshee is gone, Jean is dead, and as a result Cyclops is presumably less central of a character, I feel like they have to get some more attention, just by process of elimination.

I don't think I've ever read the post-Dark Phoenix material before, but the vague impression I have is that Kitty joining is a catalyst to give more characterization to Storm (because they develop a close relationship) and Colossus (because of Kitty's crush on him). We'll see if this actually happens.

Although she is barely characterized, Storm's origin is explicitly politicized and in ways that Comics Time unfortunately complicates. She specifically loses her parents not just in some freak accident or earthquake like I remembered it, but during Israel's 1956 invasion of Egypt! When she wanders the desert as a teenager and uses her powers the first time, it's to save a young T'Challa from a group of Apartheid era South Africans, who want to set him up as the puppet monarch of a new Wakandan colony!

Storm's origin sometimes gets reduced to a mostly or totally naked black teenage girl doing weather magic for stereotypical tribesmen before a white savior brought her to society (and that was how she was introduced in Giant Sized by Len Wein). But Claremont fleshed that out by making her explicitly orphaned by colonialist military ventures, who became a superhero to intervene against the evils of apartheid.

But it's 2017 and obviously no one writes her as being in her 60s, so this doesn't really work. I guess you could theoretically fudge Storm as still having been a chid in 1956 since she was de-aged that one time...
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  #549  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:12 AM
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But it's 2017 and obviously no one writes her as being in her 60s, so this doesn't really work. I guess you could theoretically fudge Storm as still having been a chid in 1956 since she was de-aged that one time...
This cuts to the heart of why I burn so much brainpower trying to sort out the chronology of these comics; they are filled with dates and references to actual events. You could easily fudge the 60's era, and the events after he left, but Claremont's run is a straight line from 1976 to 1990. (It also makes a lot more sense for Kitty Pryde to be college age (or older!) by the time she joins Excalibur. She's be about 50 today)
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  #550  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:26 AM
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It's also really something that's quite unique about Claremont's X-Men. The contemporary Thor and FF titles conspicuously avoid referencing or grounding themselves in the real world; while Thor visits New York, it could practically be Any American City. The FF's New York becomes similarly homogenized, and when either book travels outside of New York, the settings are very generic - "tropical island", "banana republic", "eastern Europe", "out west". Claremont aggressively grounds his adventures in real places, even if they're still broad sketches - "NORAD HQ", "Ireland", "Japan", "Brazil".
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  #551  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:28 AM
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The comics still aren't consistent about how "real" the world is, with writers seemingly doing what they feel like. One book will have real TV channels and social media apps, another will have a bunch of jokey fake ones.
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  #552  
Old 12-11-2017, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
Claremont aggressively grounds his adventures in real places, even if they're still broad sketches - "NORAD HQ", "Ireland", "Japan", "Brazil".
Even if he didn't, you could probably guess where the characters were based on Claremont's equally aggressive forced accents.
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  #553  
Old 12-12-2017, 07:39 AM
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In one of the Marvel anthology type books called Bizarre Adventures, Claremont wrote a story about Jean's sister Sara going to visit Jean's grave, and remembering a day they spent together sailing. In the story, there is the very typical comics situation of a guy aggressively hits on them and won't let up, resolved with super powers. Jean is skeeved out by him, so she telekinetically pushes him off the pier into the water.

Nothing unusual or noteworthy about his set up.

But I couldn't help but laugh at loud at her thought balloon, after a 6 year run of adult baby play, bondage gear, and mental domination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean thinking to herself
His words are charming . . . But his thoughts are something else again. Why must people like this fantasize in such graphic detail? He's so unimaginative, too. And he won't take "no" for an answer.
I like that Jean's mental put down is not just that he doesn't care about consent, but also that he's too vanilla for her anyway.

I'm sure Morrison was unaware of this obscure vignette in an anthology, but its existence gives Scott a consistent through-line of kinkiness in his major relationships.
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  #554  
Old 12-14-2017, 02:14 PM
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Hulu blocks you from taking screenshots, but the latest episode of The Gifted has our heroes kidnapped and dressed in glamorous tron bodysuits and enormous sci-fi choker collars. So it’s faithful to the text.
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  #555  
Old 12-23-2017, 11:05 AM
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Kurt Busiek had an angry nerd letter published in X-Men #144 about how he was quitting X-Men forever because the Claremont/Byrne run made the X-Men "a perversion of what they once were."

Hilarious in retrospect given the run's current status, and extra funny in this exact moment of fan freakouts about The Last Jedi.

Nerds gotta nerd.

(Apparently Busiek also is in part responsible for the Jean Grey retcon, so he held onto this grudge for a long time...)
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  #556  
Old 12-23-2017, 12:36 PM
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It’s amusing to see a famous (“famous”) person in the comments, sure. Jean Grey came back a few years later so it couldn’t have been that long and he wasn’t the most important person involved in that process by far, afaik. (Barely remember!)

This exact moment is every moment until our deaths. There are endless Disney blockbusters with about 93% on Rotten Tomatoes so most people like them but millions still don’t and their reddit post histories are easily accessible if you wanna gorge on disagreeable takes. Terrible!

Have u all seen this good content? Looking forward to Red, still refuse to buy a Wolverine comic. I think it’s great that Daken seems to keep losing arms like Professor X is paralyzed... because it’s a status quo to return to.
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  #557  
Old 12-23-2017, 01:52 PM
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I think everyone involved agrees the specifics were Busiek's idea. He didn't write the story, but he spent years stewing over how Claremont and Byrne ruined Jean, coming up with a theory about how this wasn't the real Jean before she even died. And then when the opportunity came along he was able to convince the people writing and editing the story to do it.
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  #558  
Old 12-23-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by estragon View Post
(Apparently Busiek also is in part responsible for the Jean Grey retcon, so he held onto this grudge for a long time...)

My first reaction was motherfucker but you know what? Jean Grey's death was some bullshit. And while the fallout of her return ruins many characters and causes irreparable harm to the continuity, the retcon itslef is mostly clever. Ya' tried, Kurt.
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  #559  
Old 12-23-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Excitemike View Post
Ya' tried, Kurt.
Oh yeah, I'm not mad at him about it.

I just thought it was a funny sequence of events.

The best part of his "I'm quitting X-Men forever" letter is that it mentions two previous times that he quit reading X-Men forever, which is just pitch perfect.
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  #560  
Old 12-23-2017, 03:02 PM
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Oh yikes, not only do I remember this, I think it was discussed on TT at some point.

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  #561  
Old 12-23-2017, 03:03 PM
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Just re-read the letter and response. Love that CC predicted that one day children’s - indeed, everyone’s - entertainment would be produced by robots.
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  #562  
Old 01-02-2018, 05:55 AM
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Is the retcon that the Jean Grey who became the Dark Phoenix was a clone or something? My early X-Men history is patchy.
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  #563  
Old 01-02-2018, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
Is the retcon that the Jean Grey who became the Dark Phoenix was a clone or something? My early X-Men history is patchy.
Pretty much the gist of it is that Phoenix just made a Jean form and waltzed around from Phoenix's first introduction until Jean's rebirth (found in the bay by the Fantastic Four in some capsule). At some point (post-Inferno?) you end up with regular Jean absorbing both Phoenix and Madelyn Pryor's memories to kind of sort of undo the retcon at least character progression wise.
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  #564  
Old 01-02-2018, 08:12 AM
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In the original run it's also pretty clear that Jean Grey + Solar Radiation = Phoenix, a pretty standard superhero trope of going through a radioactive accident and getting powered up instead of dying. She just gets too powered up and struggles to maintain her humanity.

The idea of the Phoenix Force slowly develops over time, years after the original story.
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  #565  
Old 01-02-2018, 09:37 AM
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The original Phoenix Saga did have an off-hand mention of The Phoenix being a god worshipped by the Shi’ar. So it didn’t come completely out of nowhere. Just mostly out of nowhere, and pretty clearly unintentionally on Claremonts part
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  #566  
Old 01-02-2018, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
The original Phoenix Saga did have an off-hand mention of The Phoenix being a god worshipped by the Shi’ar. So it didn’t come completely out of nowhere. Just mostly out of nowhere, and pretty clearly unintentionally on Claremonts part
This also comes up in a recent arc of Thor.
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  #567  
Old 01-02-2018, 09:43 AM
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I've been thinking about reading a bunch of old X-Men, maybe starting with Claremont, but also, I've been thinking about not doing that
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  #568  
Old 01-02-2018, 09:52 AM
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Growing up watching the X-men cartoon, Phoenix through Dark Phoenix really felt like the strongest story there was to tell. Everything after that paled in comparative grandeur. Given that the cartoon story arcs were like X-men greatest hits, it's so funny to see it received that way. I just recently read the comic arc, and it holds up.
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  #569  
Old 01-02-2018, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
The original Phoenix Saga did have an off-hand mention of The Phoenix being a god worshipped by the Shi’ar. So
I just re-read these and I don't recall that happening? I could be forgetting some offhand line, but the impression I got was that when the Shi'ar talked about Phoenix they were pretty consistently just talking about one human woman (Jean Grey + Solar Radiation).

I remember one point where they talk about it in terms of their legends, but it's not that they worshipped Phoenix but a more generic thing about how this one human woman is doing the kind of thing that their legends say The Chaos Bringer: Destroyer of Worlds will do.

So I got the impression that it was more like an, "Our space wizards foretold this very bad space catastrophe" kind of thing, basically.

(I'm not saying this didn't happen, just that if it did it left no impression on me. But Claremont and Byrne were obviously fighting all the time and working at cross purposes by this point so there are a lot of stories that just seem a bit confused...)
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  #570  
Old 01-02-2018, 11:21 AM
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I may be misremembering, as it’s been a hot minute since I read the original Phoenix Saga, but as I recall, after Jean manifests her full power for the first time someone (I want to say Lilandra) says something to the effect of “Its... The Phoenix! Said to be Second in power only to the Creator himself!”.

Like I said, not much in terms of exposition, but juuuuuust enough to grease the ol’ narrative wheels.
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