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  #121  
Old 09-16-2017, 01:49 PM
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I hope they send me the survey at some point.
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  #122  
Old 09-16-2017, 06:58 PM
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This game is so so so so good.

Beaten all of the optional stuff and it's a nice challenge that rewards creative strategies over brute force, like any good SaGa game. It's nice to see that this game has proper explanations for people who aren't SaGa fans though.

This is the kind of game I've dearly missed. I'm really happy about this!

I wonder if the demo will carry over at all to the final game?
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  #123  
Old 09-17-2017, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tungwene View Post
About Primrose's story:

For me the cliche doesn't bother me as much because Primrose has her own agency separate from being abused and raped. The worst parts are insinuated not shown. And it's something she's chosen to undergo of her own free will because she's got a more important goal in mind and using her beauty and dancing are the best tools she's got for accomplishing. It would be gross if the rapes were used to explain her motivations for becoming a fighting badass. She gets close to her rapist because he suspects he's got a connection to her real target and gets her revenge on her rapist but I feel like if he hadn't gotten in her way between her completing her objective she wouldn't have bothered to kill him. She even says he did not make her who she is and she's always danced to her own tune so to speak.

Rape as a lazy backstory for female characters is bad because boys get to pull mystical swords out of stones or secret ninjitsu training in mountain villages for their backstories. Girls don't get noble or inspiring backstories. They get sexually degrading, exploitative, humiliating bullshit until one day they snap and kill the one oppressing them. If that kind of backstory for female characters happened once in awhile that would be one thing but it's infuriating when it's the excuse trotted out again and again especially compared to the breadthe of different backstories found in male characters. At least what's in the demo frames the cliche in a way that suggests Primrose had some say in destiny and not someone who was poor helpless and useless girl before those events transpired.
This was one of the most unpleasant 45 minutes of game I've ever played. The only purpose behind all of the abuse, insult, and murder of sex workers was to make the villain evil? And it's literally all we know about Primrose. It's her whole story as far as we were seen fit to give - go from child to being talked up, instantly.

It turns out, she was a badass the whole time, I guess? Which raises a question as to why she _ever_ endured it? How she didn't gain the desire to actually fight back until ANOTHER victim was killed?

Rape and murder
are usually either 1) lazy story devices to make a temporary villain evil (see SVU, where the stories are about Good Cops, not about the victims); or 2) motivators for the ACTUAL hero, where aforementioned Bad Shit happens to push someone into action.

This is both. One character is fodder for the other, she's treated as worthless by both the villain and the writers. The other, the hero, her bad shit happens to make the bad guy bad.

At best, it's one lazy misogynistic anti-SW victim story and one survivor story. But you know? Given that they'll treat one as fodder, I doubt our writers will give dignity to the other. Chances are good Primrose will just be the Noble Seductive Prostitute til the end.

That is my other issue. "Allure" is her SIGNATURE SKILL. It is the way she interacts with everyone in the world, and that's the way society perceives both sex workers and abuse victims to behave - you're believed to have seduced your abuser and everyone else.

And that's why her skill is some bullshit IN CONJUCTION WITH her backstory. Because it is per se how she interacts with everyone.

This is Ch. 2 of Bravely Default with training wheels off and I couldn't think of a worse introduction to a potentially good game.

Prediction: One of the other women is someone's virgin perfect child, the other's a mom looking for her own child.

(my take doesn't have to be anyone else's but it's very definitely mine. I don't see any subversion; Primrose is just Joss Whedon's Black Widow.)
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  #124  
Old 09-17-2017, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylie View Post
Prediction: One of the other women is someone's virgin perfect child, the other's a mom looking for her own child.
Does Virginal White Mage Who Is Also The Mom Friend count? Because this other character has long white robes, a staff and a basket of apples she's passing out as snacks.
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  #125  
Old 09-17-2017, 05:48 PM
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Sounds like a good thing to mention in the survey.
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  #126  
Old 09-17-2017, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajaro Pete View Post
It Ain't Called The Madonna-Whore Dichotomy For Nothing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
Sounds like a good thing to mention in the survey.
I suspect it's a little late to affect the character design or original script but I guess you never know. Maybe they'll take her vagina bones out.
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  #127  
Old 09-17-2017, 07:25 PM
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Honestly, after seeing Kylie's post I kind of want to download the demo just for the purpose of submitting that feedback, but I don't have a Switch.
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  #128  
Old 09-17-2017, 09:13 PM
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In addition to abused sex worker and presumed saintly white robe cleric-type, the other two women characters based on character designs appear to be plucky young girl and some kind of ranger with animal companion, so maybe the the ranger will be cool?

I'm not sure what they can do to make Primrose less cringe-inducing other than ground up redesign, which as Kylie said it's probably too late for. Abused sex worker is pretty much a narrative field of land mines in that regard. Also, I get the impression they want to go for a JRPG meets Game of Thrones vibe to some extent, so they may not be interested in changing it.
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  #129  
Old 09-17-2017, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juno View Post
Honestly, after seeing Kylie's post I kind of want to download the demo just for the purpose of submitting that feedback, but I don't have a Switch.
At the very least, you should corroborate it before submitting it.
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  #130  
Old 09-17-2017, 09:53 PM
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Judging by the fact that her dancing outfit is her official character art and Allure is her official character skill, they are probably committed to keeping the "LET'S GET BIZZAY 4 GIL" aesthetic. But! They could still considerably tone down the language the non-slave-owner characters use at and around her, which would help matters a lot while still keeping the basic framework that they almost certainly can't change at this point.

I would love it if she got a much more sensible revenge seeking outfit and then kept the Allure skill simply because it's a powerful people-handling skill that she happens to have learned, rather than because it's all she knows. I was kind of thinking that since every NPC has a 100% Allure rate, they might incorporate the Dancer outfit as the "strongest" Allure-equipment, but it could simply have been 100% across the board because they didn't want people to get stuck in the middle of the demo, or because they haven't incorporated the penalty for (any Path Skill) failure into gameplay yet.
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  #131  
Old 09-17-2017, 10:03 PM
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Yeah, the premise of the character is unlikely to change. In terms of the final theme, however, small details can make a big difference, and text is the easiest part of a video game to change. So it's worth mentioning.
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  #132  
Old 09-18-2017, 07:57 AM
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Yea I was uncomfortable with just about every moment of primrose's story.
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  #133  
Old 09-18-2017, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylie View Post
This is Ch. 2 of Bravely Default with training wheels off
Yeah this is sort of where I'm at from just hearing about the plot existing. My impression of BD (never bothered to play it, not much for non-Pokemon RPGs these days) is that it doesn't possess a particularly forward-thinking narrative.
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  #134  
Old 09-18-2017, 11:33 AM
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Bravely Default was written by the same person as the similarly fucked up and misogynistic Steins;Gate. I don't know if they worked on Octopath but the spirit seems to linger on, whatever the case.
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  #135  
Old 09-18-2017, 12:47 PM
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Survey says: "Look, just play to your strengths and replace each female character's personality/backstory with 'Mrgrgr'"
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  #136  
Old 09-18-2017, 12:58 PM
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To be fair, that did put Edea head and shoulders above every other lady in the cast.
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  #137  
Old 09-18-2017, 02:14 PM
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I brought up the super uncomfortable aspects of Prim's path on the survey. And I wish the "allure" ability was less "we can totally fuck, wink wink" and more either a charm spell or just persuasion.

I would still probably play the full game unchanged, because the combat is super fun and it's not like I haven't played problematic games before, but I would put a major caveat on recommending it to people as-is.
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  #138  
Old 09-18-2017, 03:15 PM
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Yeah, I wish nothing but the best to folks who are still interested in the game, because I've played and loved games that I know had issues before and we all got different stuff that acts as dealbreakers, but Primrose's...everything completely unsold me on the game. To the point where even if they did tone it down in the final version I'm still just completely uninterested in experiencing any stories written by the folks who wrote Primrose's current one. Whatever they've got to say as storytellers, I don't wanna hear it.

Bravely Default's weirdly ugly mean-spiritedness was already one of the things that turned me off of it, but this really does crank that up to downright stupid levels. It feels like the lowest dregs of post-Watchmen comics where lesser writers could tell sexual violence was MATURE, but they didn't really know what the hell to do with that information except trying way too hard and being really, really unpleasant. And seeing it done with SNES-style sprites just makes it feel almost like some 'this is in poor taste' edgy Newgrounds animated parody or something.

Handling this kinda material takes either a light touch or heartbreaking sincerity, and instead this is just broad and tacky as hell. And the fact that Primrose is technically CHOOSING to let this be done to her is...maybe even worse? I dunno. At least, not much better. I mean, yeah, she has power and self-determination in SOME sense, but even her whole agenda isn't for HERSELF, but just out of blind obsessive devotion to the previous male authority figure in her life, a father who died seemingly more than half her life ago. "Look at me, dad! LOOK AT ME FROM HEAVEN, AS I SPEND YEARS LETTING MYSELF BE SUBJECTED TO MONSTROUS ABUSE WHILE BENEFITING AND FURTHER ENABLING THE GUY WHO IS DOING IT TO ME! AND TO OTHER WOMEN, TOO! Because it's not like there's any life but one dedicated to avenging you! Or like a powerful fighter and charismatic individual like myself has any other means of gathering information or avenging you besides putting myself through this for literally years and helping people profit from my silent, stoic, submissive suffering! IT'S ALL FOR YOU, HEAVEN-DAD!"

And heaven-dad's probably all like "HOLY SHIT, PRIMROSE, WHAT" and frantically asking every angel he can find up in heaven if he can, like, send her a letter telling her to please stop, or something.

It's super-gross!
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  #139  
Old 09-18-2017, 03:51 PM
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This. ^

Upon further thought, future plot could MAYBE salvage some grossness (Yusufa's fate is unsalvageable) but... we need to understand Primrose's nigh-obsessive passivity.

I mean, seduction is how she protects herself. That's fair enough. But why is that her technique? What does she go through, and what WILL she go through, that galvanize her as a human being this way? She's strong as hell! Why's she strong? Why does she choose not to use that strength? What injury makes someone live like that, and will she heal?

There's ways it could get better but the thing is they require the subject to be tackled again and I'm not sure I'm down with that. It was the worst content to provide as a demo since it's necessarily unfinished. And maybe some of that was localization choice.

I'm angry because I like the framing but also because I like stories of survival and Primrose could have been that but doesn't seem like she will be.
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  #140  
Old 09-18-2017, 04:05 PM
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It's possible they threw in that scenario for the demo precisely because it's the one they were least confident in, and hoped to use feedback to guide them. I think that this is extremely unlikely, however, as it involves a video game company willingly courting controversy.
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  #141  
Old 09-18-2017, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
It's possible they threw in that scenario for the demo precisely because it's the one they were least confident in, and hoped to use feedback to guide them. I think that this is extremely unlikely, however, as it involves a video game company willingly courting controversy.
Given they called this a demo and not a beta, I wouldn't count on it even with the survey.
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  #142  
Old 09-18-2017, 05:19 PM
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The studio's demonstrated an ability to incorporate feedback in the past. But, alas, it appears another of my faves is problematic.
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  #143  
Old 09-18-2017, 08:04 PM
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Wow, reading these have made whatever interest I had in the game just flutter away in the breeze. When I get a Switch I may try the demo just to better understand these issues in-game, but what a disappointment.
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  #144  
Old 09-18-2017, 08:36 PM
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This does bring to mind Bravely Default's embarrassing problems with tone, what with chemical weapon attacks and turning ladies into perfume one minute, than funny catch phrases and horny old sages the next. Ugh.
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  #145  
Old 09-19-2017, 09:20 AM
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I'm filling out the survey. I want to address everyone's concerns regarding Primrose. But I tend to be very slow in formulating a proper response. Could I request a copy/paste answer for the following?

3. What were you dissatisfied with?

4. From the above, what were you most dissatisfied with? (50 character limit)
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