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  #9661  
Old 09-18-2017, 02:53 PM
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Beverly's Haunted Sex Candle.
hahahha
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  #9662  
Old 09-18-2017, 05:16 PM
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People like to give Kirk a pass because "it was a different time!" but it really wasn't. The Federation is 100 years old at that point.
...
The real answer, is that TOS is a show made in the 60s and its writers weren't thinking about that kind of stuff.
So it was a different time. Just the time in our reality, not the timeline established in the show.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time defending Captain Kirk. He's so ridiculously macho that he borders on self-parody. This has been rightly acknowledged by pop culture on many occasions... just look at Futurama's Zapp Brannigan, who takes Kirk's "shoot first, ask questions never" approach to space exploration and exaggerates it to ridiculous extremes.

But that was a different time. Science-fiction was campier, and not as bound by standards of logic and common sense. Sci-fi in the 1990s was more sophisticated, and there was a higher standard of conduct for its lead characters. When Janeway does something questionable or ridiculous, yes, it is harder for me to accept.

You could more reasonably compare her decisions to those of Picard or Sisko, but I don't think their situations perfectly mirrored hers. I mean, there was never an episode of Next Generation where two of the more irritating crew members merged into one (we'll call him Bar-ley) and Picard pulled him apart against his will. If there had been, yeah, I would have questioned Picard's judgment.

I wouldn't say that either Picard or Sisko's records were spotless. There was an episode of DS9 where Sisko responded to the Maquis' biological attack on a Cardassian colony by poisoning a Maquis colony, forcing the two factions to switch planets. Seems like a pretty long way to go to get revenge on a turncoat officer, who never amounted to more than a minor annoyance anyway.

Yet Janeway's mistakes always struck me as more frequent, and more galling. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, and I know it's not just latent sexism... my mother, a Star Trek fan who favors TNG and DS9, gets just as irritated with Janeway as I do. That's a personal example, I know, but I strongly doubt it's the only one.
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  #9663  
Old 09-18-2017, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Parish View Post
Beverly's Haunted Sex Candle.
Sex Candle? I thought they closed that place down! Was it because it's haunted?

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Genesis is great. FITE ME.
JBear, you seem to be itching for a fight. Is something wrong?
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  #9664  
Old 09-18-2017, 08:21 PM
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Just watched the Enterprise ep "Shuttlepod One". Solid bottle episode between Trip and Malcolm, lots of great lines. And then there's Stinky. Somehow the gag works when being delivered by a brit, otherwise I think I would have died of embarrassment.
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  #9665  
Old 09-18-2017, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
I'm not going to spend a lot of time defending Captain Kirk. He's so ridiculously macho that he borders on self-parody. This has been rightly acknowledged by pop culture on many occasions... just look at Futurama's Zapp Brannigan, who takes Kirk's "shoot first, ask questions never" approach to space exploration and exaggerates it to ridiculous extremes.
When you say shoot are you referring to phasers or ejaculate?
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  #9666  
Old 09-18-2017, 10:34 PM
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"Fusion" was kind of a low-energy episode, and yet another instance of a rapey telepath assaulting a woman. The most interesting thing is the mention that mind melds are forbidden lore in the time of Enterprise, so it makes me wonder how it came back into vogue again later.
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  #9667  
Old 09-19-2017, 04:03 AM
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I don't have much to say about In the Flesh, Species 8472 have created a replica of Starfleet Academy and are using it to prepare for War with the Federation. Decent episode about trust and the stakes of escalation and paranoia. But one throwaway line, written in the more innocent time of the 90s, is kinda haunting now. When Seven and the Doctor are talking about the arms race and how the best defense is a good offense, Seven reminds him that 'in World War III over 600 million human lives were lost to nuclear weapons'.

That's.... way more disturbing now.
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  #9668  
Old 09-19-2017, 06:34 AM
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Sci-fi in the 1990s was more sophisticated, and there was a higher standard of conduct for its lead characters.
Not to harp on you, but I don't think there's a lot of merit to this. You're remembering an idyllic 90s that honestly never existed. Meanwhile, most sci-fi from the 90s was stuff like Stargate/SG1, Demolition Man, The Fifth Element, Starship Troopers, Mars Attacks, Total Recall, The Matrix, Independence Day, Men in Black, X-Files, Quantum Leap, Outer Limits, Sliders, B5, just like an endless sea of scifi that reveled in camp and breathed nonsense on a regular basis. 90s Trek trends towards the more serious side of things, but camp is baked into Trek's DNA and no 90s Trek is free from it. It always has been, and IMO should always in the future. You don't think anything of Picard painting smiley faces into frozen gas clouds or Data singing about life forms because you like that show and those characters. But you've got an axe to grind against Janeway/Voyager so those silly moments or flaws take on a sinister light when other crews in other shows would be excused for doing so.

Meanwhile, it's not like people of the 60s were incapable of rational thought. (The film 2001 is a contemporary of TOS.) TOS is a lot more serious and dramatic than you're giving it credit for. Episodes like A Taste of Armageddon, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield, Balance of Terror, and City on the Edge of Forever are all top episodes for the entire franchise and stand tall against anything made in any era. It's just that in general, IMO, media was a lot more comfortable mixing serious with camp and changing tone. It's only been a relatively recent phenomenon where people have begun to demand tonal flatness/consistency in their media. You could probably blame 9/11. I dunno if it goes back that far. I personally blame whatever monstrosity "prestige TV" relatively recently crawled out from. AMC/HBO I guess?

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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
...and I know it's not just latent sexism... my mother, a Star Trek fan who favors TNG and DS9, gets just as irritated with Janeway as I do. That's a personal example, I know, but I strongly doubt it's the only one.
One thing the last year or so has taught me is that women can be just as sexist against women as anyone else.

I don't think anyone here is actually sexist/misogynist, but I do think that it's something so ingrained into the fabric of society and people's psyches that it manifests subconsciously in ways we don't expect or intend, even among the best of us. And even if you are magically free of such influences, people are also easily swayed by the opinions of others who aren't. If you hear enough people hooting and hollering about how terrible something is, even if you don't think so, it's going to stick in the back of your mind and affect how you view things too. This is all something I know I was personally guilty of for a long-ass time, until I sat down to consciously evaluate whether this stuff had merit or not rather than relying on my feelings and impressions. And it turns out Janeway/Voyager gets a lot of undeserved slack/vitriol. Some of it was franchise fatigue, or "not MY Star Trek" attitude that's always plagued the fandom. And some of it is legitimate gripes too! But the heat that Janeway specifically gets is seriously due to the fact that people have a hard time processing a strong, female leader in a position of absolute power. Just listen to how people describe her elsewhere on the internet - it's laced with coded sexism. Hell, even here. I've read people giving her flack simply for acting like the captain on the ship and being the final authority in the room. It's lunacy! Sisko at one point has a crisis of faith and abandons his post in the middle of a war and nobody gives him flack for being a bad leader for that. If Janeway remotely did anything like that on Voyager we'd never hear the end of how hysterical or unfit for duty she was.

I think it's also a product of people's natural, pathological desire to rank stuff. And if you're raking things, somebody's gotta be the loser.
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  #9669  
Old 09-19-2017, 07:27 AM
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I'm not a huge voyager fan, but what you are saying is absolutely true.

I also think Roddenberry's 80s influence on tng was a lot more deep. He wanted no conflict, he wanted people to be godlike. Picard is paternal, perfect.

Ds9 and Voy are more interested in presenting flawed characters.
Starting points:
Tng: Captain of fed flag ship
Ds9: reluctant commander of trashed station
Voy: Captain of smaller vessel on menial mission

I think there are a lot of issues with how Voyager deals with it's plotlines, but Janeway is a bit over her head in the delta quadrant and this is really the thrust here. She wants to protect her family with out fucking shit up too much. Later we see Capt Ransom and what they did to survive and voyager comes out a lot better in the wash. Irt Tuvix: at least the show made that the crux. I could see TNG having another accident undoing it so no one had to make a decision, or Tuvix volunteering or Tuvix becoming mortally wounded necessitating seperation.

So Mulgrew rules as Janeway and (rank!) 2nd best character on show. 7/9 is god tier.
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  #9670  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:07 PM
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"Dreadnaught": Wow, I loved this episode. Not only does the premise answer one of the "shower thoughts" questions about the show (could other things have been pushed into the Delta Quadrant by the spatial distortion?) it manages to tie to a crew member's past without seeming contrived. Meaningful stakes both global and personal, and lots of great details — I love that the missile uses a Cardassian UI and that its artificial intelligence behaves a lot like the DS9 lockdown security system (demoralizing and beguiling its opponent rather than just killing them straight away). And Janeway is in Very Good Captain form here, making the hard choice to do what's right at great cost. Top stuff.
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  #9671  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
You could more reasonably compare her decisions to those of Picard or Sisko, but I don't think their situations perfectly mirrored hers. I mean, there was never an episode of Next Generation where two of the more irritating crew members merged into one (we'll call him Bar-ley) and Picard pulled him apart against his will. If there had been, yeah, I would have questioned Picard's judgment.
If that had happened, then Beverly would have pleaded with Picard to pull the trigger, and she'd have been right to do it. Frankly, Kes should have done the same.

The real problem with Tuvix was the presentation. Janeway made the best choice for her crew! But the episode ends with a long and very awkward walk to the teleporter bay that does nothing but accentuate that Janeway is killing this glorious creature, too beautiful for this flawed world.

HOT TAKE: Tuvix might have been kind of bad???
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  #9672  
Old 09-19-2017, 04:36 PM
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I don't think Tuvix did anything that was deserving of the death penalty. I guess your rationale was that he wouldn't do the work of his component halves and was dead weight. Could one man be expected to do the work of two? Would he even been able to do either job as well as Neelix or Tuvok had? (Well, Neelix, sure. But we'll get to that.)

If you were gonna make a coldly rational argument that Tuvix had to be split apart because the ship desperately needed the manpower, well, maybe. A science officer (especially one with Tuvok's experience) is important, but Neelix... well, he tends bar. And makes poisonous cheese. He's like two steps above stowaway in overall importance.

I guess the best DS9 analog for Tuvix would be Facets, where Jadzia Dax performs a ritual which temporarily puts the personalities of Dax's past hosts into the bodies of the crew. This has an unexpected effect on Odo's mysterious, plot twist-creating biology, and the shapeshifter and Dax's previous host Curzon merge into one man. Odo and Curzon are quite happy to stay that way, but Dax demands to have those memories back, and Odo reluctantly returns to normal.

Like Tuvix, O-zon was charming, but it didn't bother me quite so much that they were split apart. After all, Curzon already lived for a hundred years, and all that was left of him were memories. The stakes didn't feel quite so high, I suppose. It was petulant and selfish for Dax to demand those memories back, given the fact that she offered them freely and the two personalities were happy together, but it didn't feel like she was committing murder.
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  #9673  
Old 09-19-2017, 11:47 PM
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I wish to bring to this thread's attention the Star Trek newspaper comic.
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  #9674  
Old 09-20-2017, 06:30 AM
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I wish to bring to this thread's attention the Star Trek newspaper comic.
Finally! More Persis Khambatta
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  #9675  
Old 09-20-2017, 07:11 AM
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I can't believe the Lubbock paper carried it and I was too young to notice.
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  #9676  
Old 09-20-2017, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Parish View Post
Beverly's Haunted Sex Candle
the best recap of that episode ever is from Fashion It So, the ST: TNG fashion recap blog

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fashion It So
During this scene, Bev is sleep-raped by a ghost that lives in the candle and was her grandmother’s lover.

I just needed to get that out there and I didn’t know how else to say it.

But it’s what happens! The next morning, she is like “ooh, Troi, girl, I had some DREAMS last night…it felt like someone touching me” and Troi’s ACTUAL RESPONSE is, “like a caress??” No one has ever used the word “caress” in real life, unless they are referring to the reasonably-priced line of soaps and body washes of the same name.

Anyway, Bev is actually kind of into it, so she goes back down to the planet to see if the ghost rapist is down there? Maybe?
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  #9677  
Old 09-20-2017, 09:12 AM
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Half A Life is an episode that feels like it shouldn't have worked. Not because it was a Luxana episode (is that how you spell it? I'm not going to look it up) but because it is an episode type Trek has faltered with so many times in the past. A race's strange and kind of dumb customs get in the way of our heroes mission in some ways and the Enterprise has to deal with it.

In original Trek, Kirk would have basically made everyone change their ways by secretly changing everyone's calendar so it says they all have to kill themselves or change their ways. In a lot of other Next Generation episodes, the crew would hum and haw to an agonizing degree and then break the prime directive and give a kind of bullshitty rationalization about why they didn't.

This episode gets it right and even knows how to use Luxana correctly rather than just being Blanche from the Golden Girls... IN SPACE. By the way, I would watch the fuck out of that show. Here's she's the person who is far less interested in respecting a culture than in saving a life and it shows both the flaws and benefits of her views. It also treats a premise that could have been "Justice"-level of goofy with a surprising amount of gravitas. It takes into account family concerns and societal pressure in a way I buy. In fact, I think the only big mistake was having the Kaelons threaten the enterprise to get that guy back. If anything, it makes more sense to me that they would rather exile him. They already cut off his way to help them out of spite. Otherwise, good episode.

As for Qpid, I wish I loved anything as much as Geordi loves his lute when he first finds out he has a lute. When he first gets it he is WAY into it. Also, he sucks at it, which I love.
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  #9678  
Old 09-20-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
I don't think Tuvix did anything that was deserving of the death penalty.
I don't think Tuvok or Neelix did anything that was deserving of annihilation, either. The easy answer to the dilemma is that trading Tuvix back for Tuvok and Neelix is a net positive provided we don't privilege any of those individuals above the rest. It's a strange take on the trolley problem, as mentioned upthread. The problem is that there's a strong tendency to privilege Tuvix simply because he currently exists whereas Tuvok and Neelix do not.
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  #9679  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:57 PM
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Since people have been comparing Janeway with Kirk recently, I would just like to mention this column on Kirk being misremembered as a reckless, rulebreaking sex-fiend. I think it's been posted here before, but I thought some people recently started doing that misremembering around here once more.
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  #9680  
Old 09-20-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by upupdowndown View Post
the best recap of that episode ever is from Fashion It So, the ST: TNG fashion recap blog
8.5/10 needed more "prince of wales" jokes
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  #9681  
Old 09-20-2017, 03:09 PM
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Yeah Kirk didn't turn into a jumbo dingus until S3 when the writers all died off in an extinction-level event.
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  #9682  
Old 09-20-2017, 03:31 PM
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Since people have been comparing Janeway with Kirk recently, I would just like to mention this column on Kirk being misremembered as a reckless, rulebreaking sex-fiend. I think it's been posted here before, but I thought some people recently started doing that misremembering around here once more.
Oh, I'm not making the comparison in order to slander Kirk. I've written similar things in defense of his characterization, and Flanderization in the public mind in the past. I'm doing it to provide perspective. I don't think any of the captains in Star Trek are bad, or wrong, or have irredeemable character flaws. I pretty much love them all equally. It's just mind boggling to me when people will slander one of them as being bad, but conveniently ignore how the rest of them do the same things and it's OK. It's just easiest to point to Kirk because he was the original template that all later Captains are built upon, and it's a compelling/effective argument to demonstrate this is how things have been all along.
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  #9683  
Old 09-20-2017, 08:59 PM
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"The Thaw"
Now this is some classic TOS Star Trek. The only reason it works so well is because Michael McKean is a great actor, and giving him a role as a mental manifestation of fear is a good choice. As soon as Harry and B'Ellana showed up in a weird carnival place with clowns and such I knew this was either gonna be cringeworthy or pretty good. I'm glad it was the latter.

The next episode is Tuvix, so. Yeah.
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  #9684  
Old 09-22-2017, 06:49 PM
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I'm four episodes out from the end of Voyager season 2, and this show is great. Like, legit. Every character has had a strong showcase episode this season; there have been solid running minor continuity points; and every time it revisits a familiar theme from TNG it approaches it from a fresh and unexpected angle (example: Deadlock). I can't believe I've slept on this series for so long just because I inexplicably thought internet nerd consensus could be trusted.
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  #9685  
Old 09-22-2017, 07:45 PM
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Man, "Threshold" wasn't even in the top 10 for worst Trek episodes. The salamander part was stupid, but it was less than a quarter of the total episode, and it was a sour note in what was otherwise a pretty solid story. I don't know that Trek had ever canonically stated what the deal was with Warp 10 before this, had it?
So there's 3 main problems with Threshold, that work on 3 different levels:

Contradicting canon- The whole "warp 10 is infinite speed" thing is pulled out of nowhere, going against strict series guidelines never to quantify the whole warp thing and just leave it as a loose vague scale of going like 3 if there's no rush and maybe like an 8 if you want to be in a maybe-we-can't-sustain-this-all-day fashion, and there's totally an episode in the original series where they go like, warp 13 to get to the edge of the galaxy due to some sort of shenanigans. Ultimately this is a pretty minor point, so naturally it's the one that most infuriates nerds.

Contradicting science- Star Trek writers just really, really, really don't get evolution, in general. It's kinda notable here though because it's not even the usual issues of accidentally going Lamarckian or "we came from monkeys" but doing the whole... evolution is a preprogrammed thing on rails with so little regard for environmental adaptation that at some point we're destined to just all become poisoned by oxygen and have to move. Like, wow.

Contradicting its own internal logic- So the setup of the episode is, going at infinite speed would let us get home instantly, and while we kinda get into a detour of body horror, the only downside is that this turns humans into giant salamanders. But, in the interest of maintaining the status quo, the doctor whips up a quick and easy cure for turning-into-a-salamander. Which... solves the only problem keeping them from using this to get home instantly. Like, for real, just upgrade the engines, push the button, and give everyone their anti-salamander inoculations. What's the problem?

The actual turning into salamanders bit I don't think anyone really takes issue with, it's just the most memorable part of the episode, so it becomes the shorthand for it.

Oh and you know there's also the part where Paris kidnaps Janeway because his "overwhelming instincts" turn him into some weird baby-crazy sort of rapist and they just sorta... laugh that off, and also put no thought at all into how they abandoned their weird salamander babies in some horrible swamp in the middle of nowhere. That is a weird weird thing to shrug off like they just got drunk and TPed someone's house or something.

All that said though, yeah-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parish View Post
I mean, it's not like I think it was great. In fact, the bizarre devolution swerve at the end means it probably doesn't even average out to "good." But given its reputation, I honestly expected something as odious as TNG stinkers like The Planet of Ignoble Not-African Savages or Beverly's Haunted Sex Candle. It didn't even come close to that level of filth.
Don't forget the one with Joe Piscapo! Or the one with the random Han Solo clone who doesn't actually do anything! How the hell did that show manage to get to a third season again?
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  #9686  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:20 PM
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Don't forget the one with Joe Piscapo! Or the one with the random Han Solo clone who doesn't actually do anything!
That was the same episode...
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  #9687  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:23 PM
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I can't believe I've slept on this series for so long just because I inexplicably thought internet nerd consensus could be trusted.
Better late than never to learn the truth: internet nerd consensus is always wrong.
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  #9688  
Old 09-23-2017, 12:12 AM
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I can't believe I've slept on this series for so long just because I inexplicably thought internet nerd consensus could be trusted.
Never trust a nerd...
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  #9689  
Old 09-23-2017, 08:43 AM
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I'm four episodes out from the end of Voyager season 2, and this show is great. Like, legit. Every character has had a strong showcase episode this season; there have been solid running minor continuity points; and every time it revisits a familiar theme from TNG it approaches it from a fresh and unexpected angle (example: Deadlock). I can't believe I've slept on this series for so long just because I inexplicably thought internet nerd consensus could be trusted.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
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  #9690  
Old 09-23-2017, 11:03 AM
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Back in the day: everyone hated DS9 and loved Voyager!
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anomaly , fascinating , four lights , get the cheese to sickbay , gold-pressed latinum , i'm sensing hostility , it's a faaaake! , khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan , live long and prosper , lt. barclay , no it's real!!! , o'brien's shoulder , octo-good , resistance is futile , reverse the polarity , science fiction , shaka when the walls fell , shut up wesley , star trek , tachyon , temba his arms wide , the punishment zone , there is one bridge! , welshy!!!! , wesley crusher

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