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  #1  
Old 06-07-2017, 12:29 AM
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Default LTTLTTPRP: Zelda 3 Randomizer

(Late to the Link to the Past Randomizer Party. Forgive me.)

Hi I'm krelbel and I've been playing a lot of lttp rando lately! This is a thread for that since I have a lot to say about it and don't want to drown out other randomizer stuff in the other randomizer thread.

ALttP Randomizer is a romhack that shuffles chest/big chest contents and boss rewards (including pendants/crystals) by a randomized algorithm written to ensure the game is still completable. It's not as hard as it sounds!

The site for it is here: http://vt.alttp.run/randomizer

I race it with other folks on speedrunslive.com almost every night (I'm approaching about 70 runs now... yikes), and stream/commentate/hum/get distracted by dogs during all of these races here: https://www.twitch.tv/krelbel

The discord is the best resource if you're interested in tips or development or getting into racing or just talking about your first playthrough or whatever, and that's here: https://discord.gg/BkqShu3

Okay let's all have fun playing lots of lttp rando!!
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  #2  
Old 06-07-2017, 11:03 AM
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Hi I'm Mogri and I've been watching a lot of lttp rando lately! I am not familiar enough with the game to race it, but I enjoy watching the skilled players do their thing. Here is one such video, curated as one of the best of the bunch that I've watched.



I watch them at 2x, which keeps the pace enjoyable after you've seen enough of them to have a good idea what's what.
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:29 AM
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I watch them at 2x
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Goddammit, my poor heart can only handle so many mind-blowing revelations in one day.
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mogri View Post
I watch them at 2x, which keeps the pace enjoyable after you've seen enough of them to have a good idea what's what.
I watch and listen to everything at 2x. I mean I got places to go and people to see!
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:48 PM
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Most things I watch at 1.5x. The audio can get choppy at 2x (at least on YouTube).
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mogri View Post
Hi I'm Mogri and I've been watching a lot of lttp rando lately! I am not familiar enough with the game to race it, but I enjoy watching the skilled players do their thing. Here is one such video, curated as one of the best of the bunch that I've watched.
Oh hell yes, both Andy (well known to anyone who's watched almost any lttp run at almost any GDQ in the last few years) and mikethev (currently #9 in SRL ranks for this game, above Andy's #10, and my #58 lol) are fantastic runners, and I've been meaning to watch that particular matchup in the ongoing tourney, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I used to watch a lot more races; what finally inspired me to start racing myself was an early race in the tourney where a relatively new and Goddamned determined racer learned dark Mire, dark PoD, ice palace bomb jump, and silverless ganon:

- In the same run
- Having never done any of those tricks before
- Coming extremely close to death several times, with several extremely clutch recoveries
- In front of an audience of a thousand people (who were all being really supportive!)

He finished something like 2 hours after his opponent, and it was the most inspiring race I'd ever seen. Watching his run (and the audience's enthusiasm throughout) was what finally brought it down from "that's way too hard for me" to "hey maybe this is something I could actually do!"
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Old 06-07-2017, 06:45 PM
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This one here is one of my recent favourites.



It's like a modern Aesop's Fable.
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Old 06-08-2017, 01:05 AM
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You know how link turns into a bunny whenever you enter the dark world without the moon pearl?

TheOkayGuy made an entire spritesheet for Link that makes him a bunny the whole time. (When bunny link enters the dark world without the moon pearl, or gets transformed by a bunny beam, his clothes fall off. Why not.)

It is the best, and you can choose it for yourself in the ROM settings on the randomizer site, to play as bunny link on any randomizer run you do. (FYI, for the nerds who rely on pixel precise setups, bunny link is one pixel taller (those ears!) and just as wide as normal link.)

I will be doing every race as bunny link, forever.
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  #9  
Old 06-08-2017, 09:33 AM
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It's like a modern Aesop's Fable.
I just saw PHat abandon the blue pendant, and I'm pretty sure I can guess how this ends.
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  #10  
Old 06-08-2017, 10:44 AM
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Sakura Tsubasa, whose blog has a bunch of fantastic resources for anyone getting into lttp rando, made this excellent youtube video covering all the v8.22 updates, which might be faster to watch than it would be to read my huge post talking about them in the old thread, for anyone curious:

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Old 06-08-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mogri View Post
Hi I'm Mogri and I've been watching a lot of lttp rando lately! I am not familiar enough with the game to race it, but I enjoy watching the skilled players do their thing. Here is one such video, curated as one of the best of the bunch that I've watched.

This was really elevated by the commentary, which was very good. A good watch!
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:19 PM
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It is very, very nice not to have to find a Windows machine to use this randomizer!

My first run at it has not been super-interesting as I've gotten a bunch of sword and armor upgrades and I'm just blowing through the dungeons, but still.
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Old 06-09-2017, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
It is very, very nice not to have to find a Windows machine to use this randomizer!

My first run at it has not been super-interesting as I've gotten a bunch of sword and armor upgrades and I'm just blowing through the dungeons, but still.
That's a rando for you!

In my experience the blessed starts tend to end up as some of the most trolly runs. At least in Zelda 1 rando. Getting the wand early almost always means some bullshit item chain later on, and probably buying keys.
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  #14  
Old 06-09-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by McClain View Post
In my experience the blessed starts tend to end up as some of the most trolly runs. At least in Zelda 1 rando. Getting the wand early almost always means some bullshit item chain later on, and probably buying keys.
That tends to be my experience as well, and it makes sense. The more frontloaded a seed is, the more locations remain for that one last item you need, which increases the likelihood that it'll take you a long time to reach it (corollary: in that situation, where you're spending 30+ minutes looking for that one last item, the more participants there are in a race, the greater the likelihood will be that one or more of them will make a lucky guess and find that one last item a half hour before you do. That's rando!)

Of course, my favorite is when the stars align and you hit go mode (you have all progression items you need to beat Ganon) super early, but are stuck with a woefully inadequate amount of quality of life items (low hearts/bottles, bad sword/mail, no powder/bugnet/cape/byrna/half/quarter magic). At that point it's like, well I could beat the game now if I really tried, but how much time am I going to waste trying bottleless green mail no half magic fighter sword Mothula? Usually I'll keep opening chests in that situation (it's happened to me a couple times), but I know more experienced racers don't, and they can make up a lot of time by skipping chests at that point.
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Old 06-09-2017, 10:36 AM
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has anyone made a good bingo card for LttP Rando?

For an example of what I mean, here's the one we made for LoZ
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  #16  
Old 06-09-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by McClain View Post
has anyone made a good bingo card for LttP Rando?

For an example of what I mean, here's the one we made for LoZ
So far they've been using https://wulf.ca/bingo/test/bingo.html but I haven't joined in any of those races yet. It's pretty popular though, there's an entire role on the discord for it, the races usually happen while I'm at work, though. The young play bingo throughout the day, then us old grizzled bastards lurk in the night chewing through excruciating Entrance Shuffle nightmares. Works well.
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Old 06-09-2017, 07:02 PM
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I have nothing to say about the randomizer but want to comment about something else.

Man, I know LTTP is actually Zelda 3 but for some reason my brain just finds it so weird to see it written that way.
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Old 06-09-2017, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Torzelbaum View Post
I have nothing to say about the randomizer but want to comment about something else.

Man, I know LTTP is actually Zelda 3 but for some reason my brain just finds it so weird to see it written that way.
Twitch is picky about getting the exact name of the game you're playing exactly right, so after referring to it just as lttp for so long, actually typing out The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past seemed very odd to me. (Or is it Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past? Or is it The Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past? Or is it Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past?)
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Old 06-09-2017, 07:50 PM
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Twitch is picky about getting the exact name of the game you're playing exactly right, so after referring to it just as lttp for so long, actually typing out The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past seemed very odd to me. (Or is it Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past? Or is it The Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past? Or is it Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past?)
The box says The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past.

Or, more accurately:
THE LEGEND OF
ZELDA
A LINK TO THE PAST

TLOZ:ALTTP
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Old 06-09-2017, 09:02 PM
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Kamigami no Triforce.

One thing I'd really like is the option to start with pegasus boots.
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  #21  
Old 06-10-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
Kamigami no Triforce.

One thing I'd really like is the option to start with pegasus boots.
You should play glitched mode! (Don't play glitched mode.)

But because boots are required for dash clips, and dash clips are fundamental to glitched routing, boots are guaranteed to be in the first chest in glitched mode. You know, so nothing stands in your way when you want to head to Ganon's Tower in green mail with three hearts and no weapons (required in almost every glitched run, due to how many chests are in GT (20 non-dungeon items, more than triple the amount in Turtle Rock and Swamp Palace, the second most profitable dungeons in the game at only 6 non-dungeon items).
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Old 06-10-2017, 03:35 PM
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Kamigami no Triforce.
Ahem, I think you mean Zelda no Densetsu - Kamigami no Triforce.
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  #23  
Old 06-10-2017, 05:36 PM
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Ahem, I think you mean Zelda no Densetsu - Kamigami no Triforce.
Ahem, I think you mean ゼルダの伝説 神々のトライフォース

------------

Last night's race had a couple pretty unfortunate item locations that tripped everyone up for a while:

- Hammer in the first chest in Swamp Palace (the only chest in SP that you can access without hammer, and it takes a while to get into SP in the first place, and the whole dam sequence is entirely wasted time if you need to go back later, so people are VERY reluctant to check that one chest for hammer if there's literally anywhere else in the world left that could contain it)

- Bow in the jellyfish chest deep in (green pendant) Ice Palace. Not much to say about this one, nobody likes full clearing pendant IP when they don't have to. This was the third to last item location in the entire world the Bow could have been in by the time I got around to checking it, the last two being Kholdstare and Sahasrahla after turning in Kholdstare's green pendant.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by krelbel View Post
You should play glitched mode! (Don't play glitched mode.)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. It might be worth it to not walk so slow. Every time I play LTTP I'm counting the seconds until I get dash boots.

EDIT: Does anyone know how the flute works? I picked it up randomly and after visiting the town square statue, it works in the light world, but it doesn't work in the dark world. The boy never appears in either world.

Last edited by Violet; 06-10-2017 at 07:38 PM.
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  #25  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:06 AM
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. It might be worth it to not walk so slow. Every time I play LTTP I'm counting the seconds until I get dash boots.
To be clear, glitched mode opens up the item placement logic drastically, assuming you can (and requiring you to) do every major glitch in the game aside from EG (like mirror EG, UDEG, or S&Q EG). These glitches can be extremely difficult and time consuming to learn; this is an okay place to start if you're interested in learning swordless/major glitches, but it's a 3 hour long video, and I don't know of anything more trimmed down than that. That's a terrible way to be introduced to glitch mode in general, though; fortunately, this exhibition match between Andy and ChristosOwen that they ran on twitch/speedgaming2 to kickoff the bracket stage of the current tournament is fantastic, and a great way to see the kind of crazy stuff glitched mode involves, although of course it only demonstrates a small fraction of the glitches that glitched mode can require. Definitely worth a watch, even for people who aren't interested in running glitched mode.

Quote:
EDIT: Does anyone know how the flute works? I picked it up randomly and after visiting the town square statue, it works in the light world, but it doesn't work in the dark world. The boy never appears in either world.
Flute doesn't work in the dark world, it worked the same way in the original game. (The duck does somehow manage to pick you up at the top of Ganon's Tower, but he ignores all summons from the dark world aside from that. Uh, spoiler warning?) Since you were talking about glitched mode earlier though, one of the major glitches that mode almost always requires is Yuzuhara's Bottle Adventure (YBA), in which you drink a blue potion on the same exact frame as a screen transition, which causes a Fake Flute menu to appear and (if done in the dark world) takes you to the Fake Light World, from which you can transition to the normal dark world. Glitched mode is weird.

Anyway, the boy is always there in tree form in the haunted grove in the dark world, and he gives you a randomized item before converting fully to tree form. In the light world, the only thing to do in the haunted grove is to use the shovel in the corner, the same place you'd normally dig up the flute.
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Old 06-12-2017, 12:01 PM
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I've been getting into watching these a little bit -- they're cool! I'd kind of like to try them, and would enjoy mapping out conditional strategies, but the execution barrier is kind of daunting. I've beaten LttP several times, but never speedran it or anything. How difficult is it to get your execution to the point where you can try something like this?
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerad View Post
I've been getting into watching these a little bit -- they're cool! I'd kind of like to try them, and would enjoy mapping out conditional strategies, but the execution barrier is kind of daunting. I've beaten LttP several times, but never speedran it or anything. How difficult is it to get your execution to the point where you can try something like this?
Don't worry about speedrunning it, just do what I do and treat it as an intellectual exercise - EG, the scenario I rolled when I first tried it, where the mirror and the second glove were both buried DEEEEEEP into the quest and I had to figure out all sorts of (tricky but non-glitchy) weirdness to get around.

(Ignore that a lot of the reasons that run was difficult were because I wasn't being nearly smart enough about certain things.)

Quote:
Flute doesn't work in the dark world, it worked the same way in the original game. (The duck does somehow manage to pick you up at the top of Ganon's Tower, but he ignores all summons from the dark world aside from that. Uh, spoiler warning?)
Yeah, one of the keys to speedrunning the game is realising that there's very limited fast travel in the Dark World (just one whirlpool warp). For someone new to the game, you have to sort of map out the dark world teleports vs. where the duck can get you, and work from there how you can get around efficiently when you find stuff. The game's pretty generous in that regard, though: two duck landing zones are directly at warp points (although you need other tools to access them). So you effectively have dark world duck travel, even if you have to duck back through the light world to do it.

krelbel noted in the other thread that the "hookshot across the bridge to get to Village of Outcasts / Skull Woods" trick wasn't used a lot by people, but I think the actual bit that people forget about is that the gates of Hyrule Castle transition into a dark world teleport after you beat Aganhim, so in a randomizer you can always get to the Dark World even if you can't get to Death Mountain or one of the other warps (no gloves, etc.).

Or, y'know, just cheat. When you generate a randomized ROM, you can glance at the spoiler to see where items are (I will confess to occasionally checking to make sure the Mirror isn't somewhere insane). A few spins of the roulette wheel will inevitably get you something like "three sword upgrades and the hookshot before you leave kakariko village" and then it's more about how quickly you can UNLEASH HELL on the game because you are hideously overpowered compared to what the game's natural balance is set up to be - it's like every boss battle becomes the ones in Ganon's tower, whose purpose in the real game is basically to show you how powerful you've become in the Dark World and give you confidence to fight Ganon.
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  #28  
Old 06-12-2017, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerad View Post
I've been getting into watching these a little bit -- they're cool! I'd kind of like to try them, and would enjoy mapping out conditional strategies, but the execution barrier is kind of daunting. I've beaten LttP several times, but never speedran it or anything. How difficult is it to get your execution to the point where you can try something like this?
Like Sven said, the execution challenge (on most seeds) isn't nearly as much of a barrier as the challenge of simply remembering where all of the available chests are.

For your first few runs, I highly recommend using save states for any difficult parts. It's what I did, and there's no shame in that. Banned for races obviously, but it'll help you get past the bigger execution challenges. A general newbie tip (which is mostly common sense) is to spend more time checking overworld locations before heading into dungeons; clearing more overworld spots will likely give you more tools you need to make dungeons much easier. Then that leaves room for improvement, as heading into lucrative dungeons as soon as you can complete them can save a lot of time.

For the challenge of remembering all of the available chests (and their dependencies), I cannot stress enough just how valuable crossproduct's tracker is for new players. Pretty much everyone I know who started rando used it for their first several runs; you check off items as you find them, and it tells you everything in the world you can access with your current set of items, then you can check things off on the world map as you explore them. Same applies to dungeon items; it shows how many non-dungeon-item (i.e. anything in the general randomized pool of items, not small keys/big key/compass/map) items there are in every dungeon, so you know for certain when you've fully explored each dungeon, which can be very helpful when you haven't fully memorized the dungeons yet. Easily the single best resource out there for anyone looking to try lttp rando for the first time.

Also, like Sven said, when you generate a randomized ROM, you have the option to save the spoiler as well; that contains the contents of every chest/item location in the game, along with one valid minimal playthrough (not necessarily the optimal one, but always possible) showing the location of a set of items that can be used to complete the game. You can even generate one after the fact if you forget this, by entering the seed (in the rom filename) into the website and generating the rom again. Note that this doesn't work with roms generated with the "Generate race ROM" option, for obvious reasons. That's really good to have on hand for your first few runs, in case you get stuck, since there's still valuable experience to be gained in those cases (in fact, finding out what caused you to get stuck is often the most valuable lesson of all).

I've beaten the game about 75 times in the last 2 months, and I still consider any run where I don't forget things and get stuck to be a victory. And even on the runs where I do get stuck, I'm happy to learn the lesson from that failure for next time. Make mistakes, swear you'll never make that mistake ever again, and eventually you run out of mistakes you'll ever make again.
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  #29  
Old 06-12-2017, 01:55 PM
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oh by the way krel don't forget the big chest in swamp palace
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Old 06-12-2017, 02:03 PM
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Like I said, make mistakes, swear you'll never make that mistake ever again, make that same exact mistake in the next run you do, make that same exact mistake again in the run after that one, and eventually you run out of mistakes you'll ever make again, until you do.
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fighter sword vitreous , link to the past , lunchbox flute , nintendo , randomizer , rom hacks , sooo random u gaiz , swamp palace big chest , zelda

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