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  #8971  
Old 05-11-2017, 11:57 AM
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I'll say it again: Roddenberry wanted the Ferengi to be the lead heels for TNG when he first thought it up. Thankfully, saner heads prevailed and the Romulans took over that role.
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  #8972  
Old 05-11-2017, 12:03 PM
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I'll say it again: Roddenberry wanted the Ferengi to be the lead heels for TNG when he first thought it up.
They clearly don't have lead heels, as they are jumping up and down a lot and... oh, I misread that.
Oh, and I totally thought that the Chinese finger trap was going to be the key to getting out, like "Oh, we can disrupt the gravitational whosists by flying closer together". But no, it was just a chance to prove that a super strong, super intelligent android is powerless against novelty gag gifts. Also, should children be just milling around the work areas?
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  #8973  
Old 05-11-2017, 01:05 PM
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I'll say it again: Roddenberry wanted the Ferengi to be the lead heels for TNG when he first thought it up. Thankfully, saner heads prevailed and the Romulans took over that role.
Now that I have 5 seasons of DS9 watched, I feel confident saying the Ferengi are really some of the least respected people in this entire franchise. Both in terms of how the characters treat them and what the writers think of them. It's just a huge takedown of contemporary American capitalism with no redeeming qualities, except for the ones who live on DS9 and incorporate hoo-mon traits like drinking root beer and respecting women.
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  #8974  
Old 05-11-2017, 02:09 PM
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Now that I have 5 seasons of DS9 watched, I feel confident saying the Ferengi are really some of the least respected people in this entire franchise. Both in terms of how the characters treat them and what the writers think of them. It's just a huge takedown of contemporary American capitalism with no redeeming qualities, except for the ones who live on DS9 and incorporate hoo-mon traits like drinking root beer and respecting women.
I dunno, I think there's a fascinating story they're trying to tell there, with regards to the perspective and actions of an individual who goes against the grind of a monolithic culture. There are likely a lot more Ferengi than we see that don't buy into its ruthless capitalism like Rom & Co but our limited perspective on DS9 doesn't afford us the ability to look at them too.
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  #8975  
Old 05-11-2017, 02:20 PM
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It's also a point that, as much as Roddenberry wanted a hippy-trippy socialistic society, you can't subsume profit-seeking. It's just that they initially glommed the "negative" trait off onto another species, just like they'd earlier done with the Klingons and Romulans.
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  #8976  
Old 05-11-2017, 02:24 PM
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It's also a point that, as much as Roddenberry wanted a hippy-trippy socialistic society, you can't subsume profit-seeking. It's just that they initially glommed the "negative" trait off onto another species, just like they'd earlier done with the Klingons and Romulans.
And Harry Mudd
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  #8977  
Old 05-11-2017, 03:02 PM
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I dunno, I think there's a fascinating story they're trying to tell there, with regards to the perspective and actions of an individual who goes against the grind of a monolithic culture. There are likely a lot more Ferengi than we see that don't buy into its ruthless capitalism like Rom & Co but our limited perspective on DS9 doesn't afford us the ability to look at them too.
Well we know that Quark's mom is basically the leader of the female underground on Ferenginar. So yeah there is a counter culture that exists, that much is true. But to elaborate some more: it's not just that the show treats them without much respect, it also treats their accomplishments as petty and insignificant in the grand scheme of the Federation and the universe. They aren't a threat to anyone and they aren't a benefit to anyone, and even in the one episode where Quark gets involved in actually bad weapon trading, Sisko wastes no time telling Quark how easily he'll come down on him. I think it's a notably different treatment they get compared to every other race capable of interstellar travel, even the antagonists like Cardassia and The Dominion.
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  #8978  
Old 05-11-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
I dunno, I think there's a fascinating story they're trying to tell there, with regards to the perspective and actions of an individual who goes against the grind of a monolithic culture. There are likely a lot more Ferengi than we see that don't buy into its ruthless capitalism like Rom & Co but our limited perspective on DS9 doesn't afford us the ability to look at them too.
The Ferengi are quite possibly the best part of DS9 for this very reason, especially since most other non-human races tend to be portrayed as even more monolithic in a D&D fantasy race sort of way, hence, for example, the impetus to create 'LARP Trek'. In DS9 the Ferengi culture is brought to the forefront, but at the same time many of its inhabitants spend about as much time pushing back against it, so it's one of the few that really has significant depth of character.
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  #8979  
Old 05-14-2017, 03:07 PM
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Watched more TNG last night. Including the one with the Aryan fuck planet who want to kill Wesley. I like the idea of Picard having to navigate new sets of rules and really putting the Prime Directive to the test of morality. But I have a hard time wanting to respect the giant baby people and their stupid random death zones overseen by a dumb god.

It would have been a little more interesting if this was actually a test by their God to prove they would be willing to move beyond their god and his archaic stupid rules, but it turns out it's about asking God to be reasonable and then he leaves the stupid infants in the worst clothes to presumably die from choking on a hot dog that wasn't properly cut up.
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  #8980  
Old 05-14-2017, 03:49 PM
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"Justice" is simultaneously like the most TOS episode and the most 1987 episode.
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  #8981  
Old 05-14-2017, 04:23 PM
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I still maintain that that episode was a challenge to the networks to see how much nudity they could depict without jeopardizing their prime time slot.
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  #8982  
Old 05-14-2017, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
I still maintain that that episode was a challenge to the networks to see how much nudity they could depict without jeopardizing their prime time slot.
Given Gene's proclivities, you're probably on the right track:

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Originally Posted by Memory Alpha
One influence on the Ferengi was what Herb Wright described as Gene Roddenberry's "sex fetish." In early first season discussions between them about developing the Ferengi, Roddenberry let Wright know it was his intention to make the species well-endowed. "He wanted to put a gigantic codpiece on the Ferengi," Wright stated. "He spent 25 minutes explaining to me all the sexual positions the Ferengi could go through. I finally said, 'Gene, this is a family show, on at 7:00 on Saturdays. He finally said, 'Okay, you're right.'" (Cinefantastique, Vol. 23, No. 2/3, pp. 60-61) With Roddenberry's approval, the development of the new species got underway. (Star Trek: The Next Generation 365, p. 36)
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  #8983  
Old 05-14-2017, 09:04 PM
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I can't even imagine how much worse TNG could have been if nobody was around to say "no" to Gene, in the way nobody was around to tell George Lucas no in the early 00s. Like, it would have had to been Star Wars prequels but several orders of magnitudes worse, right?
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  #8984  
Old 05-15-2017, 03:00 PM
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Roddenberry had most definitely lost his fastball by the time 1987 rolled around. Remember that a lot of TNG was actually built out of work that was done for the Phase 2 project a decade earlier.
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  #8985  
Old 05-15-2017, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
I can't even imagine how much worse TNG could have been if nobody was around to say "no" to Gene, in the way nobody was around to tell George Lucas no in the early 00s. Like, it would have had to been Star Wars prequels but several orders of magnitudes worse, right?
Between Roddenberry and his "protege" Hurley, it really is amazing that TNG turned out as it did.

I do wonder what made Roddenberry come around and embrace Piller's vision of the show.
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  #8986  
Old 05-15-2017, 03:05 PM
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Hurley invented the Borg though. So: he had contributions.
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  #8987  
Old 05-15-2017, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by The Raider Dr. Jones View Post
"Justice" is simultaneously like the most TOS episode and the most 1987 episode.
That episode is, uh, well. I think this is a case where pictures speak more than words ever can.

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  #8988  
Old 05-15-2017, 03:10 PM
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WE HAVE EVOLVED BEYOND THE NEED FOR DIGNITY

AND POCKETS
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  #8989  
Old 05-15-2017, 03:18 PM
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WE HAVE EVOLVED BEYOND THE NEED FOR DIGNITY

AND POCKETS
The bum is Nature's pocket.
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  #8990  
Old 05-15-2017, 05:34 PM
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Wow Discovery has more of a comedy slant than I would have expected...
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  #8991  
Old 05-15-2017, 05:42 PM
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This trailer is less than three minutes long, and yet by the end of it I couldn't even remember what laughter is supposed to feel like.
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  #8992  
Old 05-15-2017, 05:48 PM
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There was a brief 30 seconds or so when I thought that this was a genuine trailer for Discovery and I got very, very scared.
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  #8993  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:10 PM
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I am generally amused. Also Penny Johnson is in it!
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  #8994  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:16 PM
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Y'know, when I watch Galaxy Quest, I find myself thinking "This would be much better if all the jokes sucked."

Thanks, Seth Macfarlane. For making my dream come true.
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  #8995  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:21 PM
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I liked it better when it was called Starslip Crisis.
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  #8996  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:22 PM
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I just. Why.
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  #8997  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:40 PM
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I just. Why.
'Cause Discovery is stuck in development hell. MacFarlane, like most people who want to see Star Trek again and not have it locked behind a doomed streaming service and conflicting network demands, saw an opening and he went for it. And he seems to have gotten some important people to agree. That's why it looks bright and clear and watchable and is actually on a real network.
The only drawback is that it took Seth MacFarlane pitching a parody to get it done. He may have carte blanche by now, but he is still Seth MacFarlane attempting to be funny.
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  #8998  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:41 PM
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I am surprised people still let MacFarlane do anything.
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  #8999  
Old 05-15-2017, 08:33 PM
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The humor... wasn't the best, but Seth McFarlane has demonstrated he knows Star Trek better than probably most people in Hollywood, and has a real love for it, so I'm cautiously optimistic. I assume it'll also take a while to find its footing too, but it could be some halfway decent scifi going on underneath the pale veneer of parody here.
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  #9000  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:11 AM
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The humor... wasn't the best, but Seth McFarlane has demonstrated he knows Star Trek better than probably most people in Hollywood, and has a real love for it, so I'm cautiously optimistic. I assume it'll also take a while to find its footing too, but it could be some halfway decent scifi going on underneath the pale veneer of parody here.
More likely: A few kernels of decent sci-fi poking out like bits of undigested corn from a huge, fudgy turd of "hilarity." That trailer was cause for despair.
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