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  #31  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:05 PM
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oh no man don't tell me you did it again over the weekend
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  #32  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:18 PM
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oh no man don't tell me you did it again over the weekend
No no, it was just those three runs in a row but I haven't made that mistake again... yet.

Nowadays my silly mistakes are usually more like, forgetting that you need hammer to smash pegs, or forgetting you need flippers to swim (in cases where fake flippers is impossible), or other similar brain farts causing me to make a split second decision to head down a branch without realizing that I don't have the items needed to explore that branch yet.
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  #33  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:21 PM
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Like Sven said, the execution challenge (on most seeds) isn't nearly as much of a barrier as the challenge of simply remembering where all of the available chests are.

For your first few runs, I highly recommend using save states for any difficult parts. It's what I did, and there's no shame in that. Banned for races obviously, but it'll help you get past the bigger execution challenges. A general newbie tip (which is mostly common sense) is to spend more time checking overworld locations before heading into dungeons; clearing more overworld spots will likely give you more tools you need to make dungeons much easier. Then that leaves room for improvement, as heading into lucrative dungeons as soon as you can complete them can save a lot of time.

For the challenge of remembering all of the available chests (and their dependencies), I cannot stress enough just how valuable crossproduct's tracker is for new players. Pretty much everyone I know who started rando used it for their first several runs; you check off items as you find them, and it tells you everything in the world you can access with your current set of items, then you can check things off on the world map as you explore them. Same applies to dungeon items; it shows how many non-dungeon-item (i.e. anything in the general randomized pool of items, not small keys/big key/compass/map) items there are in every dungeon, so you know for certain when you've fully explored each dungeon, which can be very helpful when you haven't fully memorized the dungeons yet. Easily the single best resource out there for anyone looking to try lttp rando for the first time.

Also, like Sven said, when you generate a randomized ROM, you have the option to save the spoiler as well; that contains the contents of every chest/item location in the game, along with one valid minimal playthrough (not necessarily the optimal one, but always possible) showing the location of a set of items that can be used to complete the game. You can even generate one after the fact if you forget this, by entering the seed (in the rom filename) into the website and generating the rom again. Note that this doesn't work with roms generated with the "Generate race ROM" option, for obvious reasons. That's really good to have on hand for your first few runs, in case you get stuck, since there's still valuable experience to be gained in those cases (in fact, finding out what caused you to get stuck is often the most valuable lesson of all).

I've beaten the game about 75 times in the last 2 months, and I still consider any run where I don't forget things and get stuck to be a victory. And even on the runs where I do get stuck, I'm happy to learn the lesson from that failure for next time. Make mistakes, swear you'll never make that mistake ever again, and eventually you run out of mistakes you'll ever make again.
Thanks, this is great advice! Sven too. Maybe I'll give it a try this week.
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  #34  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by krelbel View Post
For the challenge of remembering all of the available chests (and their dependencies), I cannot stress enough just how valuable crossproduct's tracker is for new players. Pretty much everyone I know who started rando used it for their first several runs; you check off items as you find them, and it tells you everything in the world you can access with your current set of items, then you can check things off on the world map as you explore them. Same applies to dungeon items; it shows how many non-dungeon-item (i.e. anything in the general randomized pool of items, not small keys/big key/compass/map) items there are in every dungeon, so you know for certain when you've fully explored each dungeon, which can be very helpful when you haven't fully memorized the dungeons yet. Easily the single best resource out there for anyone looking to try lttp rando for the first time.
Ahh, I was wondering if something like this existed. I've watched a few of these now, and they look pretty fun, but memorizing all of the chest locations and what points are opened up by various upgrades before I got started wasn't going to happen. Using something like this would let me develop the memory more naturally as I completed some runs, which sounds like a lot more fun.

I'll have to flash my original Japanese cartridge into a ROM tonight so I can try one of these. Is there a preferred SNES emulator now (it's been a while).

Last edited by Banach; 06-12-2017 at 02:40 PM.
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  #35  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:33 PM
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I just use SNES9x, like I always have. *shrug* No reason to mess with it.

Honestly, the only thing that really strains the brain is Death Mountain, since there's no reason to explore a lot of that in a normal playthrough unless you're trying to 100% the game. Most other maps aren't too bad, although I do find myself having to re-learn Ganon's Tower because there's quite a few optional chests there.

Oh, since it's non-obvious (although I read this when I read through the dev notes):

THE ROM HAS BEEN HACKED TO MAKE SURE YOU WIN THE ITEM PRIZE GAMES ON YOUR FIRST ATTEMPT.

YOU WILL ALWAYS WIN THE "ITEM" IN THE CHEST GAME ON YOUR FIRST OR SECOND CHEST OPENED.

YOU WILL ALWAYS WIN THE SHOVEL GAME "ITEM" ON YOUR 15TH USAGE OF THE SHOVEL.

These things are rather important. Remember, there's a lot of crappy rupee chests scattered throughout the world, so don't go expecting a heart container from the games (or repeatedly banging your head against it in the hope that you'll get the "real" item).
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  #36  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:39 PM
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Yeah, I actually looked up the patch notes after a couple of runs, specifically to see if that was mentioned. Given how the various runners were behaving, either there was a way to guarantee you won those games in the original cart that I wasn't aware of, or the ROM had been changed. It was somewhat relieving to see it was the latter, given how many tries that shovel game has taken me on occasion.
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  #37  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:41 PM
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Like I said, make mistakes, swear you'll never make that mistake ever again, make that same exact mistake in the next run you do,
All the STUPID mistakes you make the first few times through this will become legendary. Especially if you know the game really well (me) to the point where you've trained yourself to not go into certain rooms (me) because they normally contain useless chests (ME).

Ask my wife, who sat in bed grading papers a couple weeks ago wondering why I was aimlessly wandering around the Ice Palace for 90 minutes.
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  #38  
Old 06-12-2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Banach View Post
Ahh, I was wondering if something like this existed. I've watched a few of these now, and they look pretty fun, but memorizing all of the chest locations and what points are opened up by various upgrades before I got started wasn't going to happen. Using something like this would let me develop the memory more naturally as I completed some runs, which sounds like a lot more fun.
Yep, that's exactly the best use case for the tracker, and exactly why so many people get great use out of it. (It's also handy to add the item portion of it to a stream so your viewers can see at a glance what you've accomplished so far in the run, if you're interested in streaming.)

Personally, I watched enough races before trying it out myself that I felt confident enough to try it without a tracker, and only got stuck a couple times. But I still highly recommend a tracker, not only to help prevent getting stuck, but also to help develop efficient routing; the tracker makes it easy to see at a glance which areas you can check, haven't checked yet, and contain a lot of items, which are the three factors to consider for smooth routing.

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I'll have to flash my original Japanese cartridge into a ROM tonight so I can try one of these. Is there a preferred SNES emulator now (it's been a while).
You can use any emulator you want, but the three officially supported platforms are:

- Snes9x 1.51 or higher (<=1.43 isn't accurate enough to be allowed for races) (I use Snes9x 1.54.1)

- bsnes (now named higan, or bizhawk with a bsnes core)

- Real SNES hardware with a flash cart (sd2snes is the officially supported one, and the one that the devs test with)

That's in order from most popular to least popular, and from least accurate to most accurate; bsnes is the most accurate emulator, but it requires a beast of a computer (even now) to be able to run it and still have enough CPU left over for streaming (all racers using emulators need to stream and record every race, to prevent cheating). snes9x is "close enough" but you'll lose about 10 seconds over the course of a run compared to the more accurate platforms, but it has the advantage of being able to run on basically whatever. sd2snes is great, and obviously the most authentic experience, but expensive. zsnes is also popular, and it works, but it's inaccurate enough that it's not allowed for racing, and new bug reports from people using zsnes are generally ignored if they can't be reproduced on a supported platform (due to the inaccuracy).
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  #39  
Old 06-12-2017, 03:26 PM
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friends don't let friends use zsnes
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  #40  
Old 06-12-2017, 03:51 PM
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Snes9x is the one I'm familiar with, it amuses me that both it and zsnes are apparently still going. It's got to have been at least 20 years since I first started playing with them (adding transparency layers was really a great feature breakthrough).

Zero chance I'll ever be streaming. I lurk on twitch (seen a couple of your runs), but actually streaming isn't for me. I might have to try bsnes, just to see what it feels like. Not to worry about official times at the moment, I'm planning to try this because it looks like fun.
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  #41  
Old 06-12-2017, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by krelbel View Post
Yep, that's exactly the best use case for the tracker, and exactly why so many people get great use out of it. (It's also handy to add the item portion of it to a stream so your viewers can see at a glance what you've accomplished so far in the run, if you're interested in streaming.)

Personally, I watched enough races before trying it out myself that I felt confident enough to try it without a tracker, and only got stuck a couple times. But I still highly recommend a tracker, not only to help prevent getting stuck, but also to help develop efficient routing; the tracker makes it easy to see at a glance which areas you can check, haven't checked yet, and contain a lot of items, which are the three factors to consider for smooth routing.
Ha; I was looking forward to mapping this out on paper and planning for all the important contingencies. I guess I can still do that but this'll just help me ingrain it in my head!
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  #42  
Old 06-12-2017, 03:58 PM
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friends don't let friends use zsnes
Why, out of curiosity? The aforementioned inaccuracy? I've been using that forever. I doubt it matters until/unless I ever actually want to race this, but I'd like to know why.
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  #43  
Old 06-12-2017, 04:14 PM
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It's the inaccuracy, the really awful GUI, and the fact that it hasn't been updated in a while and has some pretty glaring security holes.
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  #44  
Old 06-12-2017, 04:58 PM
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I grew up on ZSNES and like hell if I'm gonna bother switching now. I'm too used to it (and know where all the options are) to just completely switch away from it.

That said, hmm. Maybe, maaaaaaybe, when I get back to school and have decent internet again, I might see what I can do with this. As good an excuse as any to play LttP again, at least.
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  #45  
Old 06-12-2017, 09:13 PM
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This is tough!

I have a bunch of good items (gloves, hookshot, mirror, cane of somaria, flippers) but the bow is on Lake Hylia Island. I haven't been to Eastern Palace yet because I don't have the bow. But I can't get through Agahnim to get to the dark world because there are dark rooms, and I can't get up Death Mountain because there are dark rooms! I think I've checked everywhere but Eastern Palace and maybe a spot in the desert that's acceptable; is a light source guaranteed to be there?
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  #46  
Old 06-12-2017, 09:39 PM
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Remind me; do you need a light source to pass dark rooms?

(strictly speaking, not sanely speaking)
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  #47  
Old 06-12-2017, 09:43 PM
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Easy suggestion: just cheat and hit "9" in SNES9x. Turns off the darkness transparency layer.

(I don't know if the Randomizer expects that you'll know how to get through dark rooms without a lantern.)

With that said, I'd guess that your light source is in the Eastern Palace. There's a fair number of chests in there.

If you want, give me the seed number and I'll check the spoiler for you and give you an indirect hint.
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  #48  
Old 06-12-2017, 09:43 PM
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No, as long you've got the layout memorized you don't need it.
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  #49  
Old 06-12-2017, 10:08 PM
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No, as long you've got the layout memorized you don't need it.
Which means: go ahead and cheat, no one's got the time for that.
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  #50  
Old 06-12-2017, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by aturtledoesbite View Post
Remind me; do you need a light source to pass dark rooms?

(strictly speaking, not sanely speaking)
The standard (default, non-glitched) logic guarantees that the lamp is available somewhere in the world that is not gated by any dark rooms, i.e. you are never actually required to go through dark rooms in order to complete the game, however it sometimes makes you go well out of your way to get the lamp, so knowing dark rooms can be handy.

This is less of an issue in v22, since by removing the "free fake lamp" from the dark rooms in the light world (death mountain, eastern palace, and aga tower, not sewers, Zelda's lamp still works fine), they drastically reduced the number of possible locations that the lamp can be; as a result, the lamp is usually one of the earliest items you find in v22.

Oddly enough, this had the side effect of making it so you get the bow later than you used to, because the algorithm only places items once placing that item will unlock new locations by itself, and in <=v21 due to the fake lamp effect in Eastern Palace, the bow was one of the few items that could always unlock new item locations (specifically armos knights), whereas now, the bow can never be placed until the lamp is placed first. I find side effects of minor logic changes like this really fascinating.

Anyway!

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Originally Posted by Gerad View Post
This is tough!

I have a bunch of good items (gloves, hookshot, mirror, cane of somaria, flippers) but the bow is on Lake Hylia Island. I haven't been to Eastern Palace yet because I don't have the bow. But I can't get through Agahnim to get to the dark world because there are dark rooms, and I can't get up Death Mountain because there are dark rooms! I think I've checked everywhere but Eastern Palace and maybe a spot in the desert that's acceptable; is a light source guaranteed to be there?
Short answer, yes, the lamp is guaranteed to be somewhere that isn't gated by aga tower, eastern palace dark rooms, or death mountain ascent. That said, remember that the death mountain ascent can be bypassed by flute, and aga tower can be bypassed by alternative east dark world access (moon pearl AND ((hammer AND gloves) OR (mitts AND flippers))).

Also, Eastern Palace has 3 non-dungeon items in it, and the first three chests plus the big chest are always accessible without going through a dark room; none of those chests can contain a small key, and at worst two of them will contain map+compass; if the third contains the big key, then that unlocks the big chest. So you have access to at least one and potentially all three items in Eastern Palace without needing to go through the dark rooms. (And if you do decide to go through the dark rooms, that opens up access to the vanilla big key chest, and it's the easiest dark room in the game, but it's understandable if you don't want to bother with that).

So yeah, unless there are other early spots you're forgetting about (zora? ice rod cave? hobo?), it sounds like your remaining choices are a partial clear of Eastern Palace for 1-3 items, or Aginah's cave in the desert for 1 item. Given those odds, I'd personally check Eastern Palace first. Good luck!
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  #51  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:36 AM
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Well, that was interesting.

First run is almost complete (I have to do Ganon's Tower), learned quite a bit.

1. Really could do without the mirror being in the ice cave again. I had mitts, flute, shovel, bow, hammer, and both ice and fire rods, and believe I had explored every location accessible to me (including eastern palace). I'd almost gone to ice cave way back in the beginning, but decided I wanted to try fake flippers to get the item under the bridge (I did succeed, but the conclusion is I need to practice that).

2. After the mirror, I did Hera, and then a bunch of one-off chests. Did you know that you can access Desert Palace without the book of Mudora? I didn't. Couldn't complete it, either (no boots), but the moon pearl was in one of the chests, which I needed for everything else.

3. Things went fairly well for a bit after this. Cape was in Graveyard Cliff Cave, which unlocked the hookshot in the bumper cave. Cleared Dark Palace, Swamp Palace, Thieves Town, and a bunch of overworld chests. At this point, it looks like I'm not going to need Turtle Rock or Mothula's Palace, and I won't need to go back and finish Desert, as those are the pendants. The only item I'm missing is the Cane of Somaria. Oh, and one other thing, hardly worth mentioning, is I finished Swamp Palace missing one chest.

4. It's been a long time since I've done Ice Palace without Somaria. More annoying then I remember. I need to learn that bomb jump I see people do at some point, but that wasn't in the cards tonight. No cane in here.

5. Getting worried, as all of the overworld locations I can access are covered (no boots, so there's a few I can't get to), I decide to hit Misery Mire. Nothing useful found, and of course I can't complete it.

6. Getting increasingly worried, I finish off Desert (nothing), and do Mothula (boots, but no cane). Can't do turtle without the cane, so far as I know.

7. Getting desperate, hit up all the boots locations, no luck. I guess it's time to find that chest in swamp.

8. Fuck.

9. With my newly found cane, head back to misery, finish it, and am on the way to Ganon.

Interestingly, I'm pretty sure I've never gotten the chest I missed in any prior playthrough of this game (and that's more than a couple). It's just rupees in a normal playthrough, apparently, and thus I never realized I was missing it.

Lots of fun, might have time to squeeze one more in before Stormblood hits and consumes all available hours. Definitely looking to getting some more plays in. The dungeons alone seem like fascinating puzzles, as the best routes are going to vary based on where the keys are and what items you've managed to grab before heading in (no idea what those routes are yet, but it should be fun to learn).
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  #52  
Old 06-13-2017, 02:59 AM
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Sounds like a fun run! My favorite part of my earlier runs were learning all sorts of new routing possibilities that had never occurred to me playing the vanilla game (like the back entrance to desert, or the full clear of swamp that you ran into, or the caneless ice palace routes you got to go through, etc.). That's why my favorite format is still entrance randomizer; you know how the back entrance to desert is cool? Try that when it's Turtle Rock in desert's place instead, now you can access the Turtle Rock big key chest with nothing but flute, mitts, mirror, and hookshot. My favorite is when it's in Hyrule Castle; now you can access all four chests in the Turtle Rock laser room, but only once you get the Master Sword or Cape to get past the barrier. (And of course dark world access so you can mirror up to the mid entrance.) Fun times.

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The dungeons alone seem like fascinating puzzles, as the best routes are going to vary based on where the keys are and what items you've managed to grab before heading in (no idea what those routes are yet, but it should be fun to learn).
Yeah, some dungeons are pretty straightforward (Thieves Town is pretty much always the same, and probably the easiest dungeon in the game; since it's easy, fast, and has four items, with only one chest gated by anything (the hammer for big chest) it's a popular choice for first dungeon to clear). Others, there's still a debate on how to best clear them given all possible combinations of item layout and items you've found already; there's usually a safe thorough path, then various corners you can cut from that path, with probabilities that it'll be safe to do so, and costs if it turns out that you need to go back and clear it anyway. The vanilla big key chest in PoD comes to mind (which most people skip nowadays), as does the Turtle Rock big chest, which is usually optional if you're in go mode, which you often are when you enter TR since it's so far away, but if none of the five chests after it contain a small key, you're stuck and have to go all the way back to the big chest, which is a huge time loss.

Dungeons are sort of microcosms of the whole randomizer game; they can be split into branches that need to be explored, with chances that the items you're looking for will be on each branch, with different dependencies to explore each branch, and costs for skipping branches and coming back later. For me, that's what makes dungeons in randomizer so much more fun than they are in vanilla.
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  #53  
Old 06-13-2017, 05:06 AM
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On the "odd routes I never knew" bit:

Never realised you could get to the magic bat without the hammer (just... never needed to, I guess). Which is good, because that bastard was GUARDING the hammer.
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  #54  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:19 PM
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On the "odd routes I never knew" bit:

Never realised you could get to the magic bat without the hammer (just... never needed to, I guess). Which is good, because that bastard was GUARDING the hammer.
Yeah, the hammer probably unlocks more locations in the game than any other item, so late hammer locations can be really tricky for newer players to find. Hammer in the first chest in Swamp Palace is always a pretty good troll, since Swamp Palace takes a while to get into, and without hammer you can only get the first out of nine potential item locations there, so it's usually really inconvenient to check that one chest for hammer. Same goes for hammer in Ice Palace, really, although that only gates three potential item locations there. Another fun one that often trips up new players is hammer in one of the two Pyramid Fairy chests (the room you open with the big bomb, which gives you golden sword and silver arrows in vanilla); that's by far the latest and most obscure Agahnim kill requirement that the game can throw at you.
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  #55  
Old 06-13-2017, 02:12 PM
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What are the important minor glitches to know?

Fake flippers I'm aware of, and it looks pretty easy to do consistently, at least in the spot everyone uses it. I'm also aware of the ice palace bomb jump, though I haven't tried it yet. Are there any other useful glitches that the majority try to use (it feels like I see people get link to suddenly accelerate occasionally, but that might just be an oddity of the stream).

I really wish I had discovered this more than 3 days before Stormblood comes out. Fortunately, I don't expect it to disappear on me anytime soon.
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  #56  
Old 06-13-2017, 03:49 PM
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What are the important minor glitches to know?

Fake flippers I'm aware of, and it looks pretty easy to do consistently, at least in the spot everyone uses it. I'm also aware of the ice palace bomb jump, though I haven't tried it yet. Are there any other useful glitches that the majority try to use (it feels like I see people get link to suddenly accelerate occasionally, but that might just be an oddity of the stream).

I really wish I had discovered this more than 3 days before Stormblood comes out. Fortunately, I don't expect it to disappear on me anytime soon.
The important minor glitches/techniques to know are generally sequence breaks. Roughly in order by importance, and order in which I'd suggest learning them:

1) Silverless Ganon. During the last phase of the Ganon fight (when you light torches to make him vulnerable to sword, sword him to make him vulnerable to silvers, and silver arrow him 4 times for the kill) Ganon is actually vulnerable to sword attacks for actual damage for the last two (iirc) frames before warping after each bat. (Generally the pattern goes, light the torch, two Ganon bat projectiles + warps, then relight the torch, though you can squeeze more in there with fire rod.) That's 1/30th of a second that you need to hit him, but fortunately, spin attacks make this completely trivial, just start the spin right before he warps and even if you're way off, your spin will still catch him in that 2 frame window. You'll know if you did it too early (Ganon freezes blue like a normal sword attack) or too late (nothing happens) or just right (Ganon makes the ouch sound). iirc it takes 12 successful hits with tempered or golden sword (tempered spins do the same as golden slashes, and golden spins do no more damage than golden slashes, which is weird), and 24 hits with master sword spins (which takes a while). It's hard at first, but after doing it a while, I find it almost as easy as the fight with silvers.

Silverless ganon tends to go hand in hand with torch glitch; if you re-light the left torch within a few frames after it goes out (just spamming the lamp a bunch around that time is almost always enough to catch it in the window), the right torch stays lit forever, giving you more time to spend killing ganon and requiring less time and magic re-lighting torches.

Sequence break from that: Even though Ganon tells you during the transition to the final phase where the silver arrows were, often that location is extremely inconvenient to go back to at that point if you missed it earlier (popular no-thanks spots for silvers are in the lumberjack cave (requiring an Agahnim kill), master sword pedestal (requiring all three pendants), or Ganon's Tower big chest). This is one of the most common and biggest sequence breaks in the game; it effectively cuts one item from the list of items you need to complete the game (i.e. one less item to find before you're in "go mode" and can start skipping chests).

2) Ice Palace Bomb Jump (IPBJ): It's this:



(I prefer the right two setups, since if you look closely, the left two have you starting one pixel lower; the right two require you to hug the top wall first, since just moving left after entering the room strangely leaves you 1px from the top of the screen). Scooch over the edge until there's 2-3 pixels of light ground beneath your shadow visible, drop the bomb, move up and down until there's 1 pixel between the top of your sword (2 pixels if you still have fighter sword) and the bottom of the bomb. Often I can't quite nail the right vertical position before the bomb goes off, so it takes me a few tries, but it gets easier with practice.

Sequence break from this: Usually this is just a time saver, although it can be a pretty big time saver. However, it can be a sequence break as well; if Kholdstare holds a small key, then (unless you avoid using a small key earlier, which can be really awkward and nonintuitive) cane of somaria is required by the logic in order to complete Ice Palace. This often surprises new runners; they'll think they're key-locked from completing Ice Palace, which is true, but the logic guarantees that if that is the case, then the Cane of Somaria (which will allow them to complete IP with one less key, by putting a cane block on the last switch) is guaranteed to be somewhere in the world that isn't blocked by Kholdstare, but it can be somewhere really inconvenient/nonintuitive. Knowing the bomb jump allows you to complete IP without the cane in that case, which can be a really handy sequence break, along with a really huge time saver.

3) Fake Flippers: If you enter the water on the very last pixel before a screen transition, and swim on the very next frame to initiate that screen transition, the screen transition code runs before the flippers check code, and the flippers check code doesn't run again until you get hit (don't get hit). Basically, you swim to the next screen before the game realizes you can't swim, and then the game assumes that if you got to the next screen by swimming, you must obviously know how to swim. The most useful location, and easiest setup, for this is to sequence break access to the hobo's item under the bridge by Lake Hylia before getting the flippers (and using it for quick gloveless access to Zora through the warp can be a nice time saver/sequence break as well):



Hug the lower wall, walk directly right to the bush, pick up or slash the bush and while you're still in the pick up/slash animation, hold up+right; that places you at exactly the right pixel to jump in and transition, taking all the precision guesswork out of it. It's really really easy.

Don't get hit! If you get hit, the game runs the flippers check code again, notices that you don't know to swim, and (as if you jumped in the water without flippers) tries kicking you back to where you jumped in from. That's fine if you get hit on the same screen you initiated fake flippers from. However, if you swim to a different screen in this state, and get hit (usually by the archer guard on top of the bridge), then the game doesn't know where to eject you to; at this point, you have a small window in which you can save and quit, but if you keep moving instead of save+quitting immediately, then the game gets softlocked and your only option is a console reset, which can lose a lot of time.

4) Dark rooms: This is way less important in v22 than it was in v21 (now that lamp is required to light aga tower/eastern palace/death mountain ascent, early lamp is WAY more common), but occasionally the lamp is in an extremely inconvenient spot (like the ones I listed above), and if you know how to complete the game lampless, it can save you a whole lot of time.
I keep the maps on SakuraTsubasa's blog open in a tab on a browser beside me while playing, which makes most dark rooms pretty reasonable. If you're racing then it's worth practicing before racing, but if you're not then it's fine just having the maps handy to consult if necessary. (Although like I said, with the v22 lamp change, this is almost never as much of a sequence break as it used to be.)

5) Spin speed/item dashing: This is purely a time saver, no sequence break at all. If you're walking up stairs (not the kind you auto-walk up, like the ones between levels in Thieves Town or Hyrule Castle, but the longer ones you walk up like the ones outside Eastern Palace, Kakariko Village, and (most importantly) Death Mountain), release a spin attack, and start a pegasus boots dash on the very next frame, the game glitches and lets you run at pegasus boots speed except retaining full directional control as if you were walking. You'll know if you got it (while still walking up the stairs) because you won't be able to slash your sword anymore. That sounds trickier than it is, I can usually get it just by rolling my thumb over from B to A. You can also enter this state by doing an item dash (press Y and A on the exact same frame; using a claw grip on the controller makes this easier) with the hookshot while on stairs, which is easier but requires hookshot. Item dashes are also handy with the hammer, as it'll let you knock down a row of pegs much faster than bopping them individually (the best place to use this is for peg cave in dark kakariko village).
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:05 PM
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Gerad Gerad is offline
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Short answer, yes, the lamp is guaranteed to be somewhere that isn't gated by aga tower, eastern palace dark rooms, or death mountain ascent. That said, remember that the death mountain ascent can be bypassed by flute, and aga tower can be bypassed by alternative east dark world access (moon pearl AND ((hammer AND gloves) OR (mitts AND flippers))).

Also, Eastern Palace has 3 non-dungeon items in it, and the first three chests plus the big chest are always accessible without going through a dark room; none of those chests can contain a small key, and at worst two of them will contain map+compass; if the third contains the big key, then that unlocks the big chest. So you have access to at least one and potentially all three items in Eastern Palace without needing to go through the dark rooms. (And if you do decide to go through the dark rooms, that opens up access to the vanilla big key chest, and it's the easiest dark room in the game, but it's understandable if you don't want to bother with that).

So yeah, unless there are other early spots you're forgetting about (zora? ice rod cave? hobo?), it sounds like your remaining choices are a partial clear of Eastern Palace for 1-3 items, or Aginah's cave in the desert for 1 item. Given those odds, I'd personally check Eastern Palace first. Good luck!
So I did Eastern Palace, like you said. It wasn't there; of course it was in the old man's cave

Then I had to do Agahnim because the Titan's Mitt was in the lumberjack cave and I realized that was going to be necessary...

New update: I now have almost everything needed to win. I still need the fire rod, ether medallion...and I still need the bow. Grr...I've done the entire light world except the mimic cave, armos knights, and Sahasrahla's pendant reward, and I've done the entire dark overworld except bumper cave (whatever that is) and fat fairy. Currently doing Thieves Town so I can go to fat fairy next.

I'm almost 100% convinced that the bow is in blue pendant ice palace or something like that. I did check the pedestal, so at least that particular troll isn't happening. I get the feeling this would be a lot more fun seed to watch a race of than to actually play! I'm way too rusty at the dungeons for this, I keep missing keys.
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:28 PM
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So I did Eastern Palace, like you said. It wasn't there; of course it was in the old man's cave

Then I had to do Agahnim because the Titan's Mitt was in the lumberjack cave and I realized that was going to be necessary...

New update: I now have almost everything needed to win. I still need the fire rod, ether medallion...and I still need the bow. Grr...I've done the entire light world except the mimic cave, armos knights, and Sahasrahla's pendant reward, and I've done the entire dark overworld except bumper cave (whatever that is) and fat fairy. Currently doing Thieves Town so I can go to fat fairy next.

I'm almost 100% convinced that the bow is in blue pendant ice palace or something like that. I did check the pedestal, so at least that particular troll isn't happening. I get the feeling this would be a lot more fun seed to watch a race of than to actually play! I'm way too rusty at the dungeons for this, I keep missing keys.
TT's always a good choice to clear, it's quick, easy to full clear, and barely faster at all in go mode (skipping chests) than it is to full clear. Especially if it's one of crystals 5 or 6 and you've already got the other, in which case it unlocks 6 items (4 itself, 2 from pyramid fairy), tied with the other two most lucrative locations (Swamp Palace's and Turtle Rock's 5 plus mimic cave, which I always count as part of Turtle Rock anyway).

Bumper Cave's the dark world equivalent of the death mountain ascent, by the way; it's two rooms, the second of which is gated by a bumper (the blue things you bounce off of) that you can walk through with the cape, and a gap that looks like it requires hookshot to cross but you can actually shimmy across the top of it (which the logic assumes you know; bumper cave can gate access to the hookshot!) but you can just hop over there to glance at its item on the ledge any time, you don't actually need to go through bumper cave unless you see that it has an item you want/need.

But yeah, if you keep ruling out the more lucrative locations, eventually you run out of them and start needing to do unpleasant things like full clearing Ice Palace. People usually call something like that a "100% seed", a seed where the last item you need to reach go mode is in such a remote unlikely location that reasonable routing will take you literally everywhere else in the world before it takes you there, so you end up clearing everything. I think positively; that gives me that much more opportunity to practice! That said, most people understandably hate it when a seed ends up trolling you like that.
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:36 PM
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But yeah, if you keep ruling out the more lucrative locations, eventually you run out of them and start needing to do unpleasant things like full clearing Ice Palace. People usually call something like that a "100% seed", a seed where the last item you need to reach go mode is in such a remote unlikely location that reasonable routing will take you literally everywhere else in the world before it takes you there, so you end up clearing everything. I think positively; that gives me that much more opportunity to practice! That said, most people understandably hate it when a seed ends up trolling you like that.
Yeah, I can understand that attitude. Just frustrating for my first one!
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:27 AM
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The original list of optional sprites that you can choose to substitute in for Link, most of which I posted gifs of in the other thread, was Zelda (awesome), Frog, Pony, and Minish Cap Link. TheOkayGuy added a full spritesheet based on the bunny that Link transforms into, which is my personal favorite. Yesterday, Zarby added two more spritesheets, which I've now played in my races yesterday and today; first an entire spritesheet based on the Wizzrobe enemies (very popular), and tonight an entire spritesheet based on the old man you rescue from the death mountain ascent cave, who gives you the magic mirror in vanilla and a randomized item in rando.

Fortunately, I didn't find the lamp before rescuing him (and I've practiced rescuing him in the dark before), so I got the special treat of rescuing the old man who lost his lamp as an old man without a lamp. This game is delightful sometimes.
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fighter sword vitreous , link to the past , lunchbox flute , nintendo , randomizer , rom hacks , sooo random u gaiz , swamp palace big chest , zelda

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