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  #31  
Old 07-31-2011, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Ugh, yeah, I don't know what was up with Solaris. Sure, everyone had a lot of revelations about everyone else, but as I recall none of their actual objectives for storming the city were actually fulfilled. (Except for Citan's real objectives. But Citan's a dick.)
They do actually accomplish what they came to do. Well, sorta: The team went to Solaris to destroy the final gate generator, so Shevat could wage war against Solaris. If you recall, they have to use Seibzhen's plot contrivance power to bust through Solaris's gate in the first place. Of course, the party doesn't actually destroy it themselves, Jessiah does. Citan's there with him, but Jessie tells him to run along while he stays to fight... Ramsus, I think? When I was playing this time and saw this scene, I was like "Oooooh so that's what happened to Jessie!" But no, he turns up later during the escape sequence and I believe in the ensuing cutscene dump.

But, you know, given what happens, fulfilling their objective was totally pointless.
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  #32  
Old 07-31-2011, 04:21 PM
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I love using that thing's special attack.
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  #33  
Old 07-31-2011, 04:23 PM
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Lady and I are going to play through this together as soon as get a chance. I can't wait.
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  #34  
Old 07-31-2011, 05:37 PM
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I'm not going to read the thread yet since I'm not even halfway through the game, but you guys just reminded me that I have to go finish this.
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  #35  
Old 07-31-2011, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnip View Post
Multi-disc games ruined storytelling. Star Ocean 2, Dragon Quest VII, Xenogears... these are all games where the end of the first disc is a fake-out that doesn't work because you know you have a whole 'nother disc to play. The build-up to invading Solaris and the events that take place there would have been an excellent fake-out and the insanity that follows (what makes up disc 2) would have been just that much more shocking.
Shadow Hearts Covenant had an interesting spin on that. The whole first disc leads up to this big climactic showdown with the main baddie, then he escapes to his airship, at which point the main character chases it down immediately and you flat out kill him. Disc 2's plot is completely unrelated and story wise, feels much more like a sequel rather than a continuation.
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  #36  
Old 07-31-2011, 08:34 PM
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Reason #9000 to dislike Xenogears: It doesn't let you do anything that matters. For much of the game, the only remotely interesting decision available to you at all is whether to use boosters. And it's usually a no-brainer anyway.

The music sure is good, though.
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  #37  
Old 07-31-2011, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
Reason #9000 to dislike Xenogears: It doesn't let you do anything that matters. For much of the game, the only remotely interesting decision available to you at all is whether to use boosters. And it's usually a no-brainer anyway.

The music sure is good, though.
But drugsboosters are bad! They make you go crazy and slaughter your own troops!
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  #38  
Old 08-01-2011, 03:40 AM
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No no, it was "DRIVE" that made you slaughter your own troops! Booster just made the ATB bar fill faster.

I am a big softie and this is my favorite piece of Xenogears music.

I'm also in the camp that sees the game's flaws plain as day, but I still really like it. I love the Deathblow combos, and I was kind of sad that the entire final dungeon disregarded the game's incredibly fun on-foot combat system for hours upon hours of giant robots and having to Charge to conserve fuel (which means that you have to take up a Gear Equip slot with a Z Charger instead of something more fun).

Then again, I was honestly expecting something like this to be the ending of Xenogears--big mecha battle into personal one-on-one brawl between Fei and Krelian, even through Krelian was just supposed to be like... a politician-priest. I'm not kidding.
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  #39  
Old 08-01-2011, 10:45 AM
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One other point in Xenogears favor: Upon reading The God Delusion, I realized that XG's whole "waves" thing was actually not complete pseudo-scientific bullshit, but actually had some basis in a hypothesis taken seriously by many scientists of note.

So they got that right, at least.
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  #40  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:18 PM
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Since I never see them discussed when Xenogears gets brought up, I'm going to mention the minigames. I'm probably the only person who liked the fighting minigame. It was clunky and broken, but it was at least unique in how it played, and there were a ridiculous number of gears to choose from later on.
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  #41  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:19 PM
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I kinda played the hell out of that stupid minigame.
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  #42  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:20 PM
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Yeah, it was pretty fun. You didn't even have to do combos, you could just run away and shoot beams at the opponent to win, but just the idea of it, a giant robot fighting game, was awesome (and we didn't get Cyberbots).
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  #43  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:23 PM
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I just want to note that I've seen the title of Emeralda's theme translated as "June Mermaid," "September Mermaid," and finally, "October Mermaid."
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  #44  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Becksworth View Post
Since I never see them discussed when Xenogears gets brought up, I'm going to mention the minigames.
It's been mentioned. (Wow, 1998? Time flies.)

The second time I played, I ran it through an emulator, because a handy toggle to run at 5x normal speed does wonders for the talky bits. As a side effect, though, running the game from hard disk means that loading times are insignificant compared to the original, eliminating the Babel Tower problem.

I also skimped on purchases for the whole early game so I could buy Elly an EtherDoubler while Nisan was still available, making her reasonably useful... even if that's nothing compared to the engine of destruction that is Adult Emeralda with two of them.
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  #45  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:41 PM
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I loved this game when I was a teenager to whose angst NGE spoke telepathically. While I'm occasionally curious about going back and trying it, I don't think I ever will. What I can offer this conversation is that back in the day, the Working Designs site offered a review section where this game got a 10.5 - remembering that their "games go to eleven!" The half point was deducted because of disc 2 - the reviewer absolutely adored everything else about the game.

The other thing of note is that this was the first instance I've noted of Japanese nerd culture misappropriating the names of post-modern philosophers rather than classical or empirical philosophers: one of Fei's previous identities is named Lacan. Compare that to Locke, and you have examples of completely useless references (well, I guess the psychoanalysis thing works with Xenogears, but still).

The only other example of this phenomenon I can think of is Ergo Proxy.
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  #46  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:24 AM
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My favorite minigame was the card game on the Thames. I forget what they called it in Xenogears, but in real life it's called "Speed". Not only could you get some useful items from it, but there were actually extra voice clips for the characters when you won or lost.
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  #47  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Becksworth View Post
Since I never see them discussed when Xenogears gets brought up, I'm going to mention the minigames. I'm probably the only person who liked the fighting minigame. It was clunky and broken, but it was at least unique in how it played, and there were a ridiculous number of gears to choose from later on.
The fighting game is really janky and pretty much exclusively built for Weltall. Most other Gears have a really difficult time fighting (Xenogears, in particular, is godawful at it because of its attack animations).

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Originally Posted by Kishi View Post
I just want to note that I've seen the title of Emeralda's theme translated as "June Mermaid," "September Mermaid," and finally, "October Mermaid."
神無月の人魚
So October Mermaid would probably be closest.

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Originally Posted by KCar View Post
The other thing of note is that this was the first instance I've noted of Japanese nerd culture misappropriating the names of post-modern philosophers rather than classical or empirical philosophers: one of Fei's previous identities is named Lacan. Compare that to Locke, and you have examples of completely useless references (well, I guess the psychoanalysis thing works with Xenogears, but still).
Elly's whole squad misappropriates the hell outta some psychoanalyst names: Otto Rank, Hermann von Helmholtz, Frantz Omar Fanon...
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  #48  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Rosencrantz View Post
My favorite minigame was the card game on the Thames. I forget what they called it in Xenogears, but in real life it's called "Speed". Not only could you get some useful items from it, but there were actually extra voice clips for the characters when you won or lost.
My friend actually got really bewildered at that part because the game's voice acting is so scattershot that he'd forgotten it existed, and the win/lose clips were so muted that he thought he was hearing things.
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  #49  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymooo View Post
No no, it was "DRIVE" that made you slaughter your own troops! Booster just made the ATB bar fill faster.
I thought it was funny how you could find and use Drive items on your characters to permanently increase a stat.
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  #50  
Old 08-02-2011, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kishi View Post
My friend actually got really bewildered at that part because the game's voice acting is so scattershot that he'd forgotten it existed, and the win/lose clips were so muted that he thought he was hearing things.
Yeah, aside from the extremely rare and horribly dubbed anime cutscenes, most of the voice acting in the game is the (clearly still Japanese) grunts and yelps in-battle.

It was definitely bewildering to hear all the player characters actually speak in English for a throwaway minigame, especially since Fei and Elly had been the only ones to actually have spoken lines in cutscenes up to that point. That's a feat considering how freaking long the game is.
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  #51  
Old 08-02-2011, 02:33 AM
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I finished the game earlier this evening, ad now I'm going to post my thoughts:

I was actually planning on loading ChuChu up with drives from Big Joe's shop so she'd be a force of nature, but then I realized that those Output+50% gear accessories were more economical so I bought... five of them, I think? I also farmed up like five pairs Speed Shoes (auto-haste, even in gears!), so, you know, I was good to go.

The final dungeon is incredibly dull. I suppose the Seraphs could be kinda scary if you're not rad to the max from Big Joe's Shop (it's all Joe brand!).

The first time I played the game (a hundred years ago), I could NOT beat Deus. I think I could usually knock out his support beams (although they'd wear my b-team down quite a bit), but when it came down to take out the big guy I just couldn't muster it.

...actually understanding the game systems and what stats do what made it substantially easier. I'm pretty sure back then I just loaded everyone up with Extra Armor (because more defense is always better, right???), which enough of will weigh your gears down and drop your agility. Coming in this time with Magnetic Coats, Speed Shoes, and those Output+50% accessories made things far, far easier. I took out all four support pillars with Rico, Maria and Bart, and Deus himself with Fei, Citan and Emeralda.


The ending is awful, seriously, just awful. Fei's pseudo-philosophizing is awful and worse than Krelian's by a long shot. Krelian, you see, actually comes across as pretentious douchebag, and he's been alive for 500+ years, so he's had time to think about this stuff and run it by his Livejournal community first. So it makes sense that he'd spout off nonsense.

But coming from Fei, it comes across as awkward and weird, even when you account for all his past lives.

The whole "Krelian loved people, he wasn't such a bad guy!!!" spill would have been more effective if (A) Krelian hadn't orchestrated the deaths of 90% of humanity, and (B) it wasn't being spouted by Elly, whose Seraphs took out half of the remaining 10%. Elly's responsible for the Seraphs, isn't she? Citan made a remark about how they acted like a mother trying to bring her children back into the womb (or something, this game is written by a group of people who stayed up so late watching Evangelion they were half-asleep during their Intro to Psychology class).

The Wave Existence is a douchebag, even more than Schala from Chrono Cross. At least when you free her, it doesn't nearly blow up the planet.

I hate how that random communications guy gets more screen-time and voice acted lines in the ending animation than Billy, Rico and Maria. I was surprised to even see Maria, because I seriously didn't remember her being in it at all (you only see her for like a second when the party is running to Xenogears).


BROOOOOKEN MIIIIIIRRRROOOR A MIIILLION SHAAAADES OF LIIIIIIIIGHT
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  #52  
Old 08-02-2011, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Turnip View Post

Elly's responsible for the Seraphs, isn't she?
Actually, IIUC, Miang was responsible for the Seraphs. Remember, Miang is the Mother, Elly is the Antitype

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Originally Posted by Turnip View Post

The Wave Existence is a douchebag, even more than Schala from Chrono Cross. At least when you free her, it doesn't nearly blow up the planet.
This I can understand. First, as a being from a different plane of existence, I don't think the Wave Existence cares much about the fate of humankind, so it's justified douchebaggery. Besides, the Wave Existence freeing itself and blowing up the planet sound reasonable - we're talking about a being that was the power source of the entire planet for thousands of years, I don't think you could free it without leveling down a couple thousand square miles.

One of the things I did like about the ending is that Xenogears is one of the few games where the villain wins.

One question, should we continue using the spoiler tags? Is there someone who cares about the details of the story who hasn't played this game and who is not a resident of Europe? It's 10 years old already :P

Quote:
BROOOOOKEN MIIIIIIRRRROOOR A MIIILLION SHAAAADES OF LIIIIIIIIGHT
And this song rocks, so don't mock it

(the vocalist is Joane Hogg from IONA, and is the only time where I knew the vocalist of the game before the game came out. And no, Leona Lewis doesn't count, Square).

Xenogears is like Robotech - it's embarrassing to watch it ten years later with your girlfriend, but you still enjoy it, defects and all.
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  #53  
Old 08-02-2011, 08:38 AM
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I think? I also farmed up like five pairs Speed Shoes (auto-haste, even in gears!), so, you know, I was good to go.
Jesus, you have much more patience than I do. I farmed TWO of those and I was sufficiently annoyed that I deemed that "good enough" and continued with the game.

Quote:
The first time I played the game (a hundred years ago), I could NOT beat Deus. I think I could usually knock out his support beams (although they'd wear my b-team down quite a bit), but when it came down to take out the big guy I just couldn't muster it.
I had a whole system set up for the Pillars. Naturally, some party members would repeat, but I'd bring Chu-Chu to at least two fights (the fuel-draining Nazca carpet because she's immune, and the high-damage one because she can heal.) I'd leave Fei and Emeralda out of it until the final Deus battle, and I think I'd only use Citan for the easiest one so he'd be fresh enough to join them. Everyone got a turn, though. Even BlankaRico, the weakest link.

The Deus fight in itself is a mixed bag. Knocking out the Pillars DOES make it easy, so he's more of a damage sponge than an actual threat. And "Awakening" is one of the best final battle themes ever. I seriously wish they'd either gone with another Deus design among those shown in Perfect Works, though. Thanks to the PSOne's limits, the current one looks like a skeletal and spindly spider-bot (even though the PW artwork reveals it to be an organic creature, and damn it looks nightmarish in hand-drawn art) and it's weird that the Elly/Miang "angels" break off from extensions in its elbows while its hands are down there, hard to see (I used to think the elbow spikes WERE its hands until I read PW.)

The final Miang fight was just sad, though, and a waste of another amazing final battle theme. Just spam Xenogears' final Deathblow over, and over, and over, and over again, and nothing she can do can threaten you. A scripted battle like Seph vs Cloud would've worked better, thematically and mechanically.


Quote:
The whole "Krelian loved people, he wasn't such a bad guy!!!" spill would have been more effective if (A) Krelian hadn't orchestrated the deaths of 90% of humanity
I actually laughed when they said that. Seriously, Elly?

Quote:
The Wave Existence is a douchebag, even more than Schala from Chrono Cross. At least when you free her, it doesn't nearly blow up the planet.
Nah, she just merged two realities together and negated who knows how many possible life paths for who knows how many people

And like Brain said, I don't think the WE is so much a douchebag as something that is so beyond the physical universe that even its brief manifestation can annihilate a planet. You know, how all the angel-related apocrypha says that your eyes would melt or your brain would explode or your face would fall off or something if you ever saw an angel's true magnificence? Something like that, on a global scale.


Quote:
I hate how that random communications guy gets more screen-time and voice acted lines in the ending animation than Billy, Rico and Maria.
It's not like they could've given that lowly duty to a named character, they're too busy waiting anxiously for Fei and Elly's return!

Also: holy crap is the voice acting atrocious in that ending cinema. Even today, when I'm fully aware of it and I brace myself for it, it makes me wince every single time.

But, you know... with the Zohar Mod gone and the Gears shut down, how DID the gang get out of Deus' core and into that idyllic field? Did they grab onto a giant Chu-Chu real hard while she climbed out?

And what are the planet's few hundred survivors going to do now, gather around the godlike mech and sing campfire songs?
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  #54  
Old 08-02-2011, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Also: holy crap is the voice acting atrocious in that ending cinema. Even today, when I'm fully aware of it and I brace myself for it, it makes me wince every single time.
"That's a LIE!!!"

Yeah it was bad.
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  #55  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:05 PM
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All this Xeno ending talk is making me want someone to do a "Let's Watch" of Xenogears Disc 2 for the LP forum. There's gotta be a lot of people who have only actually seen the first disc, or thereabouts.
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  #56  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
Actually, IIUC, Miang was responsible for the Seraphs. Remember, Miang is the Mother, Elly is the Antitype
Actually, "Antitype" refers to her connection with The Contact. Elly is the "Mother" aspects of the original Miang (the woman who appears in the opening FMV who we might as well call her "Eve"), while Miang is the "Weapon" aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Jesus, you have much more patience than I do. I farmed TWO of those and I was sufficiently annoyed that I deemed that "good enough" and continued with the game.
By God, if they're gonna give me a a new character sprite for Emeralda, I'm gonna use it! (Also one of those was from Snowfield Hideout)

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Originally Posted by Zef View Post
But, you know... with the Zohar Mod gone and the Gears shut down, how DID the gang get out of Deus' core and into that idyllic field? Did they grab onto a giant Chu-Chu real hard while she climbed out?

And what are the planet's few hundred survivors going to do now, gather around the godlike mech and sing campfire songs?
Both these things bug me. They make a big deal out of how Fe is the only one who can go save Elly because his gear works, and it's like... Chu-Chu? She's right there y'all. I'm sure she'd add some much needed whimsy to the annoying ass dialogue between Fei and Krelian.


And then, yeah, most of the cities are in ruins (Lahan's gone, Shevat and Solaris crashed, Aveh's capital city was destroyed by the Fatima Hurricane - boy I'm sure glad like a third of the game is spent liberating that country, and the Thames sank), most of the people in the world became God's Fleshy Body (teehee), and it's like... what now?
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  #57  
Old 08-02-2011, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL View Post
"That's a LIE!!!"

Yeah it was bad.
The best part is how Gruffy McBart speaks English one moment, and then they left the original Japanese "Oooi!" when Xenogears comes down.
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  #58  
Old 08-02-2011, 03:38 PM
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The best part is how Gruffy McBart speaks English one moment, and then they left the original Japanese "Oooi!" when Xenogears comes down.
I just watched the ending movie, Japanese version, out of curiosity, and it's even more than that! Pretty much everything after Bart's "I know it!" isn't dubbed at all in the English version. It's like they just... stopped.

Geez, I haven't seen that ending animation from Xenogears in ages, man that really takes me back to when I played it for the first time all those years ago and

WAIT WHY AM I CONSIDERING REPLAYING THIS WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME
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  #59  
Old 08-02-2011, 03:42 PM
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If there is one good thing about this game it is that the little voice clips that play whenever Billy attacks are all completely awesome and I never got tired of hearing them.

Last edited by Solitayre; 08-02-2011 at 05:08 PM.
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  #60  
Old 08-03-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Turnip View Post
Actually, "Antitype" refers to her connection with The Contact. Elly is the "Mother" aspects of the original Miang (the woman who appears in the opening FMV who we might as well call her "Eve"), while Miang is the "Weapon" aspect.
Uh. That'll teach me to fall asleep during exposition scenes. That sounds about right.

It still makes sense that the newly reformed Miang would devour the rest of humankind, though. She's still the mother, and something tells me that the Elly facet is not in charge of things or you wouldn't have found much resistance in the final dungeon. BTW, if I remember correctly, she only devoured those that descended from Miang and the Gazel ministry, and everybody who descended from Abel was spared. Is that right or is my memory tricking me again?

Quote:
what now?
The game dropped a hint earlier. Chu-chu's will have a big orgy! There's a planet to repopulate, you know. Humans will hold their own party, too, if they know what's good for them.
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