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  #10771  
Old 04-08-2019, 10:58 AM
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"The Alternate" is amazing. It's the moment in DS9 where you realize as a viewer that this gruff, crotchety, old guy in a mask, is actually just an angst filled teenager who ran away from home because he got in a fight with his dad. His dad may have been a jackass, but his dad meant well and genuinely cared and didn't know how to do anything but show tough-love. And it's reflective of those moments of epiphany a lot of adults have where they begin to appreciate their parents once they grow up and realize why they were they way they were when they have to deal with the struggles of becoming a parent themselves. It's honestly DS9 at its finest with regards to telling relateable human stories hidden underneath a veneer of space oddities.
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  #10772  
Old 04-08-2019, 11:05 AM
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When it gets to that, I like it, but I feel like it's not enough of the episode to me and then in the last act it is a blobby werewolf story. But I definitely agree that's the best part of it.

As for teenager... I'm not disagreeing on that point, but to me, its more like "We think we are so grown up and then something can hit us in a way that makes us a lot more vulnerable and weaker than we anticipated," which is especially powerful to see it happen to someone who may, for all his faults, may be the station's "rock" even more, perhaps, than Sisko (who also gets a really good moment with Jake where he tries to get Jake to willingly embrace his homework as more than a chore, then turns it into a gleeful lighthearted punishment. Man, Sisko would work SO WELL AS A VILLAIN!). But overall, despite those strong points, I was largely not feeling the episode and wish they heavily expanded on the stuff I liked.
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  #10773  
Old 04-08-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
"The Alternate" is amazing. It's the moment in DS9 where you realize as a viewer that this gruff, crotchety, old guy in a mask, is actually just an angst filled teenager who ran away from home because he got in a fight with his dad. His dad may have been a jackass, but his dad meant well and genuinely cared and didn't know how to do anything but show tough-love. And it's reflective of those moments of epiphany a lot of adults have where they begin to appreciate their parents once they grow up and realize why they were they way they were when they have to deal with the struggles of becoming a parent themselves. It's honestly DS9 at its finest with regards to telling relateable human stories hidden underneath a veneer of space oddities.
You're just engaging with the premise of the episode. The moment-to-moment was bad and goofy. It starts with an earthquake that they can't beam out of right away because ??? (complete with the most obvious painted backdrop that I can ever recall seeing in any Star Trek), spends a bunch of time spinning its wheels on a not very entertaining mystery, has an extra scientist character that had no reason to exist, and the answer to the mystery is that Odo got infected by space gas. A few good character beats doesn't make it "DS9 at its finest".

To say nothing of their interaction near the end where dear old dad is pressuring Odo to hide the truth, not trust his friends, and come back to the lab with him.
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  #10774  
Old 04-08-2019, 11:32 AM
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When I first watched The Alternate, I thought it was a good episode with the caveat that I was worried that "Odo finds a new pile of goop and wonders if he's related to it" would become a reocurring bottle episode episode premise.

In retrospect, now that I know that this does not happen and that the basic question gets resolved sooner than I expected, I like it even more as a one off. It was a story that they needed to do once before moving forward with the character.

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the most obvious painted backdrop that I can ever recall seeing in any Star Trek
I'm certainly not watching 90s Star Trek to not see obviously painted backdrops! (I think the miraculous HD remaster of TNG sets an impossibly high and anachronistic standard for DS9 and Voyager, which do look amazing for 90s TV. I appreciate the goofy charm of making do with limited resources.)
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  #10775  
Old 04-08-2019, 11:38 AM
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I'm certainly not watching 90s Star Trek to not see obviously painted backdrops! (I think the miraculous HD remaster of TNG sets an impossibly high and anachronistic standard for DS9 and Voyager, which do look amazing for 90s TV.)
I don't think I've ever mentioned this in this thread, but every single episode of DS9 on Netflix has blue bleeding in on one side of the end credits, and it seems very odd to me that they couldn't find anything cleaner to use. Like, surely they have an existing recording somewhere without that bleed? I might have something better on a VHS in my closet.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Unusual View Post
Sisko (who also gets a really good moment with Jake where he tries to get Jake to willingly embrace his homework as more than a chore, then turns it into a gleeful lighthearted punishment. Man, Sisko would work SO WELL AS A VILLAIN!).
Best scene in the episode.

Jake: "Just because you had to study Klingon opera in school doesn't mean that I have to!"

Sisko, with Cheshire grin: "Yes it does."
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  #10776  
Old 04-08-2019, 11:49 AM
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There are weirdly a lot of SD shows on Netflix and Amazon that are definitely sub-DVD picture quality, even in cases where DVDs exist. Babylon 5 is another one where there's a decent enough DVD release, but then they found some worse version to stream online, for some reason.
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  #10777  
Old 04-08-2019, 11:52 AM
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Man, I really thought Voyager was gonna get through its run without a "holodeck program gains sentience and causes problems" episode, because it already has a holographic doctor that covers similar ground, but unfortunately this is not the case, and it even got resolved in a pretty boring way. "Fair Haven" itself isn't really that compelling of a setting for this kind of story IMO, even though I really liked the previous episode about it because it dealt with Janeway boning a holographic guy,

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Man, Sisko would work SO WELL AS A VILLAIN!
Avery Brooks is a fantastic actor and IMO elevates DS9 more than any other actor in the show.
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  #10778  
Old 04-08-2019, 12:15 PM
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You're just engaging with the premise of the episode. The moment-to-moment was bad and goofy.
You tell me the episode is full of bad things, but then describe a laundry list of good things, and I don't really know how to handle that.

Netflix's bizarre quality problems are another reason I'm loathe to give them my business. That thing you describe with the blue bar is easily remedied. But they're probably using old VHS masters instead of DVD rips, thus you see artifacts that would have been hidden from old CRT overscan. Meanwhile on Amazon the show looked great.
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  #10779  
Old 04-10-2019, 05:14 PM
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Don't think I've ever anticipated a Documentary so much before...



(I'm kinda surprised to see a clip of Avery Brooks, I didn't think they got him for the doc...)
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  #10780  
Old 04-11-2019, 05:27 AM
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! And unlike every other Fathom Events release I've ever wanted to see, this one is coming to Canada, and Fredericton in particular! And it looks like I can order tickets now? (I don't have a Cineplex account, but I might make one for this.)
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  #10781  
Old 04-12-2019, 08:37 AM
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Despite the name Armageddon Game doesn't have much of either and doesn't feel like an old school treat episode (something I suspect it will be when the title isn't just a noun, plural noun or common phrase). It sets itself up like a 70s paranoid conspiracy thriller and ends up being a bottle-ish episode heart to heart between Bashir and O'Brien.

None of those elements are necessarily bad but the Bashir/O'Brien scenes are a snooze and they don't tell us anything new or interesting about the characters. I mean, Bashir had a girlfriend I guess, but it doesn't seem like something that has or will informed the character in anyway interesting. Meanwhile, the conspiracy is essentially given to us from the get go and its up to the other characters to catch up and its not that interesting to do so. They try to treat the supposed deaths of two lead characters with weight but while those scenes aren't bad, they aren't good either. They are just sort of there.

As for the conspiracy plot, it seems to be kept from a huge distance from most of the episode and is pretty generic conspiracy stuff. It also culminates in a showdown that makes the bad guys look very stupid. Also with stuff that should have huge consequences for their government and world but they and their ridiculous hair will never appear again, so whatever, I guess.

One thing I like, ironically, is also the dumbest thing in the episode: Keiko's coffee-related epiphany. Not because I enjoyed it ironically (I just though some of it was asinine. So you can just analyze barely visible materials in doctored videos?) but because it basically puts a lantern on how dumb it is with a genuinely inspired (if also kind of dumb, in a good way) episode ending gag. It's very sit-commy stuff but almost used against one of the dumber tropes of these kinds of stories so it's cool.
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  #10782  
Old 04-12-2019, 12:30 PM
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Don't think I've ever anticipated a Documentary so much before...
Those HD rescans, and the fan-made re-renders are making me thirsty.
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  #10783  
Old 04-12-2019, 03:49 PM
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I've already purchased my ticket!
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  #10784  
Old 04-13-2019, 07:14 PM
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So I've been watching Discovery! It's pretty good, even if it's plot structure and character focus are very different from the Trek I'm used to. Just finished the mirror universe arc in Season 1 and wow, those twists were definitely unexpected.
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  #10785  
Old 04-14-2019, 09:12 PM
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For extra-textual reasons it's incredibly hard to take Andy Dick seriously as the prototype for an improved model of Robert Picardo. In the mid-90s he was just a fun guest star, that guy from News Radio. In retrospect . . .
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  #10786  
Old 04-14-2019, 09:28 PM
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If it’s any consolation, the Mark II is a failure and decommissioned
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  #10787  
Old 04-14-2019, 09:40 PM
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It doesn't really affect my evaluation of the show either way, really, it's was just kind of funny.

But . . . that development definitely makes it funnier.
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  #10788  
Old 04-27-2019, 07:49 PM
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Back to DS9 for the first time in a while and, hey, all three episodes were pretty good. Also worth noting: I found the strongest DS9 episodes were relatively down to Earth social/political stories connect to some pre-established Bajor/Cardassian stuff and while one of these has a specific "social/political" component, two of them felt like more the high concept sci-fi stories of some of the other series and they make it work a lot better than some of the other attempts.

Whispers is a really fun paranoid thriller that has some questionable story logic (are all replicants this ridiculously unreliable? If he was simple an info-sponge spy that would make sense but the characters seem to imply he was to be an assassin when he doesn't approach anything of the sort. Also, WHY KEEP MOLLY AROUND THE POTENTIAL ASSASSIN?!) but more than makes up for it in tone and general cleverness. Its pretty easy to guess that the problem lies with O'Brien and not with the crew but I feel like the final reveal is really well done and appropriately sad.

Paradise had me worried at the start, as I feel like I had seen Trek wear the "we've made a new life for ourselves here" into the ground. But no matter how many times they do it, you can't beat a "I will not bend to you" anti-conformity story and the episode plays its Sisko scenes very well. The ending isn't bad, but not entirely satisfying, not because there's no real comeuppance for the villain (though I sure would have got catharsis if they all just threw her butt in the damned crate. I mean, it would be a morally questionable ending but it would have made me feel better), but also because while I get why some of these people might be into staying despite what the village was built on, it seems weird that none of these betrayed cultists are like "fuck this, I want medicine and a working toilet". I mean, the shot of the crate in the last shot is nice, leaving us to wonder if it will be used again... but assuming the Federation will probably show up again to, at the very least, touch base, they might not let any obvious signs of abuse lie.

Shadow Play was a good episode but while the sci-fi stuff was neat, it another episode that does a great job with Odo as a character. It also made me realize that Odo not liking to shapeshift at other people's behest due to his troubled youth is both a powerful character trait but also a good way to save money on shapeshifting effects. Also, while Odo works really well in the political espionage stories, I wouldn't mind more stories that are simply "Joe Friday goes to other planets and solves crimes outside of his jurisdiction" stories.
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  #10789  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:41 AM
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I've been rewatching TNG and I'm almost done, and I also decided to finally sit through all of DS9 when I was done, which is a show I have traditionally not liked a ton. But today I was like fuck it I'll start now.

I'm like TEN MINUTES into the first episode and I am immediately reminded of why I don't like it; Avery Brooks is the weirdest fucking actor I've ever seen. His delivery on some of his lines is just...so CONFUSING. I just...like, don't understand why you'd read them that way. It's so weird, so so soooo weird.

Anyway, it'll be a fun little experiment to see how long I can stick with a show where the main character is a weird dude I don't like.

Also I forgot how bad Kira's hair is at the beginning. Dear Lord.
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  #10790  
Old 05-01-2019, 10:29 AM
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I'm like TEN MINUTES into the first episode and I am immediately reminded of why I don't like it; Avery Brooks is the weirdest fucking actor I've ever seen. His delivery on some of his lines is just...so CONFUSING. I just...like, don't understand why you'd read them that way. It's so weird, so so soooo weird.
To me, often his lines feel like a veiled threat.
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  #10791  
Old 05-01-2019, 03:17 PM
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Guy's an African American stage actor and he lets that inform his portrayal. It's something he ends up with sharing with Tony Todd and Brock Peters (and their scenes together are fantastic).

IDK, I've always liked it, and I don't think it's any less idiosyncratic than Kirk's or Stewart's leading performances.
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  #10792  
Old 05-01-2019, 03:28 PM
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Avery Brooks is like, way too good of an actor to be doing Star Trek. He fucking kills it on DS9.

Also Kira's hair is fanTASTIC. It's so 90s I love it so much
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  #10793  
Old 05-01-2019, 03:46 PM
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Guy's an African American stage actor and he lets that inform his portrayal.
This is definitely a major factor. He's definitely employing a different mode of elocution that not everyone is used to. It's no more or less artificial than Patrick Stewart's mode of speaking, though.

It takes some time for the writers and directors to start using Brooks properly, but once they do I think the body of Brooks' work across DS9 is probably the best performance in 90s Star Trek. (I still have one more season of DS9 and 3 more of Voyager to go, but I think I have the gist of what the actors are bringing now.)

Stewart is maybe better at single-handedly saving some specific scripts that require a certain self-serious gravitas (see: Sarek), but Brooks' range and depth of character across the entire series is amazing. His father-son relationship with Jake is some of the best character work in all of 90s Star Trek, made possible by the incredible rapport that Brooks and Lofton build. As a leader in Star Fleet, he brings a complex combination of darkness, warmth, and humor that makes Sisko both a richly developed and unpredictable character. This work creating Sisko pays off incredibly well as the situation becomes more and more grey, in episodes like In the Pale Moonlight or during his many conflicts with the Maquis. It's also amazing that he directed himself in Far Beyond the Stars, which is a fantastic episode and a stellar performance where Sisko is in the main role.
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  #10794  
Old 05-01-2019, 03:58 PM
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Patrick Stewart gets all the accolades from fans because we're all used to seeing and being able to identify him as a good actor because we're all used to seeing classical serious white-guy thespian acting because the broader culture is inundated with it and we're shown copious examples of it from an early age. But serious black-guy thespian acting might as well be kabuki acting for the public at large, because it's its own thing and gets almost no broad exposure for people to see it and get used to it to begin to know how to take it in, appreciate it, or identify a good performance or not.
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  #10795  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:43 AM
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This is definitely a major factor. He's definitely employing a different mode of elocution that not everyone is used to. It's no more or less artificial than Patrick Stewart's mode of speaking, though.
This is exactly it. It's just the WAY he delivers some lines that throws me off. I think what it is is that with Stewart/Kirk's overacting, it always came at an expected time. An alien would do something to them, say torture them on Cardassia, and then they'd immediately switch into full on Ham Mode™. So you kinda knew when it was coming, or wasn't surprised by it too much when it happened. But with Brooks, sometimes he's having a frankly boring/mundane conversation, and then he REALLY leans into the way he pronounces a single line, and then goes back to delivering his lines in a very straight way, and it's just kind of jarring sometimes. The first episode had a lot of ACTING!!! in it due to the circumstances, and at first I remembered why I historically didn't like Sisko, but as the episode went on I got used to it and didn't really have a problem with it. Since the first episode, I haven't noticed it as much too, so either he stopped doing it or I got used to it.

Also, just overall I'm into the show much more now than I used to be. I think it's honestly just a matter of expectations. I used to think DS9 was "boring", but I'm like 7 or 8 episodes in, and I'd describe every episode as a middle tier TNG episode. Nothing has really stood out yet, but nothing felt as awful as I remember either. I specifically remember being super bored by all the Bajor politics/religous stuff, but now as an adult I'm like "yeah this is fine". I'm not blown away by anything that's happened yet, but it is More Star Trek™, and That's Fine™. I'm trying not to compare it to TNG, which is was what I always used to do.
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  #10796  
Old 05-08-2019, 12:03 PM
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Also it is the first season of Deep Space Nine, and lest we forget the first season of many shows (particularly The Next Generation) tend to rough before the actors and writers settle into a working formula as the shows go on, if they go on.

I've watched a lot of TNG on BBC America, and I can immediately tell when an ep is from the first season by the tone of the acting and the music. And Riker not having his iconic beard yet.
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  #10797  
Old 05-08-2019, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL View Post
Don't think I've ever anticipated a Documentary so much before...



(I'm kinda surprised to see a clip of Avery Brooks, I didn't think they got him for the doc...)
I was going to post about this, but it seems I've been ninja'ed. By about a month.

Why wouldn't Avery Brooks be a part of this? I mean, Shatner got him for that vanity project The Captains. If you want to see Brooks at peak weirdness, watch that.

Shatner: "Weren't the Star Trek captains great? Especially me, William Shatner."
Brooks, not really paying attention: "Acting is like jazz. You've got to have RHYTHM, man." (goes to town on his piano)

Brooks was hammy in Deep Space Nine, but I figured that was the point. He wanted to stand out from the other captains, and he definitely accomplished that. He wasn't "too good" for Star Trek (I mean, come on, he was on Spencer for Hire prior to this!), but he did what he could to make that role his own.
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  #10798  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:51 PM
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He wasn't "too good" for Star Trek (I mean, come on, he was on Spencer for Hire prior to this!), but he did what he could to make that role his own.
lol I would not use the resume of black actors in a nepotistic and racist place like Hollywood as any amount of evidence of their ability to act.

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Originally Posted by MetManMas View Post
I've watched a lot of TNG on BBC America, and I can immediately tell when an ep is from the first season by the tone of the acting and the music. And Riker not having his iconic beard yet.
My favorite game is see how long it takes for me to identify a Star Trek episode (from any show) when it's just on the TV randomly. I can usually peg the episode within a few seconds!
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  #10799  
Old 05-08-2019, 07:16 PM
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I just bristle at the thought that an actor would be "too good" for Star Trek. Alec Guinness famously complained that another sci-fi franchise, Star Wars, was beneath him, but he too has been in far, far worse.
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  #10800  
Old 05-08-2019, 09:26 PM
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You are misreading my intent here. That is not meant to be a slight against Star Trek in the least.
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