The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about TV and film

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #9301  
Old 07-11-2017, 02:04 PM
Parish's Avatar
Parish Parish is offline
Your life is forfeit
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rally, Nerf Cackolacka
Posts: 11,366
Default

Huh, the second half of Lxwana's Deep Space 9 debut episode was much better than the first. The earnest moment between her and Odo makes me wish they had dialed down her man-hungry weirdo act a lot sooner and let her be, you know, an older version of her daughter more often.

Also, from the subsequent episode: Petulant disinterested Sisko is great.
Reply With Quote
  #9302  
Old 07-11-2017, 07:57 PM
Torzelbaum's Avatar
Torzelbaum Torzelbaum is offline
????? LV 13 HP 292/
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Central Illinois
Pronouns: he, him, his
Posts: 13,215
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
This is a load of baloney. Tuvix, in support of his own existence, argued that Tuvok and Neelix lived on through him. Would the reverse not be true as well then? That Tuvix would live on through Tuvok and Neelix? It's such a nonsensical, illogical, hypocritical argument.

You also claim Tuvix has a right to exist, do Tuvok and Neelix also not have the right to exist? Since when does the right of one person to exist trump the right of two people to exist? Since when does Tuvix get to make decisions for those two? Who is going to represent their wishes and their rights as individuals? (Hint: It was Janeway, and btw, both Tuvok and Neelix both thank the Captain for saving their lives.)

They're not "murdering" him either, they're simply returning him to the state he was in before he existed. Nobody pulled out a knife and slit his jugular or anything. They threw him into the same transporter that disassembles and reassembles people on a routine basis. If we judge disassembling a person in a transporter to be murder, then the Federation, and most of the interstellar community it seems, operates on top of a foundation of continual voluntary manslaughter on a massive scale. Chief O'Brien has TV's largest kill-count outside of characters deploying WMDs. Tuvok and Neelix went in, an error made something else come out. Something else went in, they corrected the error and made the originally intended parties reappear.

It's a neat scenario to discuss the ethical ramifications of, but I think it's ridiculous to pretend that A) the situation is black & white, and B) that Janeway is this cruel monster for making the hard decisions a Captain should make in order to do what's best for the survival of her crew. Think about every time in Voyager from that episode on where either Neelix or Tuvok played even the smallest roles in ensuring the survival and safety of the crew, and then realize how fucked Voyager would have been if they had Tuvix instead, sitting in his quarters refusing to do work as a crewman and instead pursuing his music and shit.
The needs of the many? I doubt Star Trek has ever said anything about that...
Reply With Quote
  #9303  
Old 07-11-2017, 08:09 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8,536
Default

Tuvix would have never climbed into the warp core, but he would have expected others to do so for him.
Reply With Quote
  #9304  
Old 07-11-2017, 08:46 PM
Violet's Avatar
Violet Violet is offline
Discordia
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: fairbanks, alaska
Pronouns: she / her
Posts: 11,018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
You also claim Tuvix has a right to exist, do Tuvok and Neelix also not have the right to exist? Since when does the right of one person to exist trump the right of two people to exist?
Tuvix IS Tuvok and Neelix choosing to exist as a single person. Their choice was taken away from them.
Reply With Quote
  #9305  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:12 AM
Googleshng's Avatar
Googleshng Googleshng is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 16,387
Default

It's taking every ounce of my willpower not to bust out Steven Universe jokes in here.
Reply With Quote
  #9306  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:17 AM
Positronic Brain's Avatar
Positronic Brain Positronic Brain is online now
Out Of Warranty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Pronouns: He/him
Posts: 9,976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBear View Post
The fact that people are still re-litigating Tuuvix after so many years speaks to how great that episode is, IMO.
...Well, nobody has ever debated if it was OK to deprive those alien puppies from 'Threshold' of their parents... So yeah, you might have a point there.
Reply With Quote
  #9307  
Old 07-12-2017, 11:30 AM
Fredde's Avatar
Fredde Fredde is offline
Can't peeve the Sheev
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,509
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBear View Post
A related question I've heard asked before is what kind of heinous shit is allowed to transpire on the holodeck.
Something Awful did a thing on that, called "The Life and Times of a Holodeck Janitor". No NSFW pictures, but the text is probably not for the faint of heart.
Reply With Quote
  #9308  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:34 PM
Gunther, an Otter's Avatar
Gunther, an Otter Gunther, an Otter is offline
THAT'S TOMMORROW!!!
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 213
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post

Think about every time in Voyager from that episode on where either Neelix or Tuvok played even the smallest roles in ensuring the survival and safety of the crew, and then realize how fucked Voyager would have been if they had Tuvix instead, sitting in his quarters refusing to do work as a crewman and instead pursuing his music and shit.
If you use the wallglitch to keep Tuvix in your party past his exectution/division you need to haul ass to get his social link with Suder high enough to retake voyager during "Basics I&II".

"Resolutions" is either going to be way harder and the Vidian convoy hostile encounter will happen much sooner, or much easier if the Vidians are interested in trading for Tuvix weird fusion dna and delicious orchids (which you should be able to get from Suder because you'll be maxing that link as fast as possible)
After that the "Flashback" mind meld sidequest is entirely optional and if you use Tuvix' Logical Diplomacy to negotiate with the Ferengi you can finish Voyager's journey super early through the Barzan Wormhole.

Of course then you miss the Quadruple Super romance scene between Warlord-Kes and Tuvix? Also if you keep Tuvix on voyager to watch soap operas with Kes he has slightly different dialogue options.

But Tuvix Cant equip any of Tuvok or Neelix's later equipment but you will have enough budgetary character slots to keep Kes in the party at the end of season 3.

I only started watching voyager a month ago and am still on season 3
Reply With Quote
  #9309  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:17 PM
Parish's Avatar
Parish Parish is offline
Your life is forfeit
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rally, Nerf Cackolacka
Posts: 11,366
Default

Wow, I'm almost at the end of DS9 season one and there really wasn't a bad episode in the batch.

"Duet" is the kind of sci-fi-as-metaphor content Trek doesn't do anymore — the Bajor/Cardassia relationship has overtones of Israel/Palestine, and the captive Cardassian was definitely a proxy for a Nazi administrator who disappeared to Argentina. I definitely didn't expect the episode to go the way it did in the final five minutes, from the Cardassian's breakdown to the final act of violence. Really great stuff. Weird that I don't think I've ever heard people talk about that particular episode... it's gonna stick with me.
Reply With Quote
  #9310  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:44 PM
TirMcDohl's Avatar
TirMcDohl TirMcDohl is offline
The Goofiest Roebro
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Utah
Posts: 6,510
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther, an Otter View Post
If you use the wallglitch to keep Tuvix in your party past his exectution/division you need to haul ass to get his social link with Suder high enough to retake voyager during "Basics I&II".

"Resolutions" is either going to be way harder and the Vidian convoy hostile encounter will happen much sooner, or much easier if the Vidians are interested in trading for Tuvix weird fusion dna and delicious orchids (which you should be able to get from Suder because you'll be maxing that link as fast as possible)
After that the "Flashback" mind meld sidequest is entirely optional and if you use Tuvix' Logical Diplomacy to negotiate with the Ferengi you can finish Voyager's journey super early through the Barzan Wormhole.

Of course then you miss the Quadruple Super romance scene between Warlord-Kes and Tuvix? Also if you keep Tuvix on voyager to watch soap operas with Kes he has slightly different dialogue options.

But Tuvix Cant equip any of Tuvok or Neelix's later equipment but you will have enough budgetary character slots to keep Kes in the party at the end of season 3.

I only started watching voyager a month ago and am still on season 3
STDQ marathon strats
Reply With Quote
  #9311  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:46 PM
Teaspoon's Avatar
Teaspoon Teaspoon is offline
This way up
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 3,975
Default

That was the best thing about Voyager I've ever read.

Not that this constitutes a huge quantity of material.
Reply With Quote
  #9312  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:51 PM
SpoonyBardOL's Avatar
SpoonyBardOL SpoonyBardOL is offline
Too Big For Smash?!
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Newfie Land
Posts: 16,363
Default

Duet was truly great and was the sort of episode neither TNG nor VOY had in their first seasons. Really solid stuff, and fortunately DS9 has more of that here and there in its run.

Meanwhile on Voyager I just watched The Killing Game Parts I and II which has the Hirogen take over the ship prior to the episodes airing and enslaving the crew on the holodeck so the Hirogen can act out various violent events with them including a Klingon hunting party and World War II, with the Hirogen dressing up and acting as Nazi SS agents fighting against the Voyager crew as French resistance and oh my god the Hirogen are LARPing.

In this two-parter we see Seven singing at a club, a pregnant B'Elanna with a holo-babby, and Neelix as a Klingon leading a group of holo-Klingons.

It all comes to a head as the holographic Nazi HQ blows up, tearing a hole through several decks causing the holographic World War II to spill out into the ship because the Hirogen started sticking holo-emitters in every panel they could find. Then all the simulations combine and we have a holo-American army fighting against holo-Nazis and then holo-Klingons storm in to save the day on the streets of holo-France.

And then Janeway kills the traitorous Hirogen second-in-command and then SCENE MISSING and finally the Hirogen leave Voyager.

It is marvelous in its ridiculousness, and sort of the polar opposite of the kind of Trek that Duet is.
Reply With Quote
  #9313  
Old 07-12-2017, 03:08 PM
chud_666's Avatar
chud_666 chud_666 is offline
120 Days
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Salo
Pronouns: He/him
Posts: 8,493
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parish View Post
Wow, I'm almost at the end of DS9 season one and there really wasn't a bad episode in the batch.

"Duet" is the kind of sci-fi-as-metaphor content Trek doesn't do anymore — the Bajor/Cardassia relationship has overtones of Israel/Palestine, and the captive Cardassian was definitely a proxy for a Nazi administrator who disappeared to Argentina. I definitely didn't expect the episode to go the way it did in the final five minutes, from the Cardassian's breakdown to the final act of violence. Really great stuff. Weird that I don't think I've ever heard people talk about that particular episode... it's gonna stick with me.
It's a series highlight. The season finale is incredible as well.
Reply With Quote
  #9314  
Old 07-12-2017, 04:03 PM
Adam's Avatar
Adam Adam is offline
the :motion: stands
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: OR
Pronouns: He / Him
Posts: 7,675
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther, an Otter View Post
If you use the wallglitch to keep Tuvix in your party past his exectution/division you need to haul ass to get his social link with Suder high enough to retake voyager during "Basics I&II".

"Resolutions" is either going to be way harder and the Vidian convoy hostile encounter will happen much sooner, or much easier if the Vidians are interested in trading for Tuvix weird fusion dna and delicious orchids (which you should be able to get from Suder because you'll be maxing that link as fast as possible)
After that the "Flashback" mind meld sidequest is entirely optional and if you use Tuvix' Logical Diplomacy to negotiate with the Ferengi you can finish Voyager's journey super early through the Barzan Wormhole.

Of course then you miss the Quadruple Super romance scene between Warlord-Kes and Tuvix? Also if you keep Tuvix on voyager to watch soap operas with Kes he has slightly different dialogue options.

But Tuvix Cant equip any of Tuvok or Neelix's later equipment but you will have enough budgetary character slots to keep Kes in the party at the end of season 3.

I only started watching voyager a month ago and am still on season 3
god i missed you
Reply With Quote
  #9315  
Old 07-12-2017, 05:08 PM
Daikaiju's Avatar
Daikaiju Daikaiju is offline
King Of Space-Time
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 20,717
Default

Link in pic

Reply With Quote
  #9316  
Old 07-12-2017, 08:23 PM
Büge's Avatar
Büge Büge is offline
Toothsome!
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TO, ON, CA
Pronouns: She/Her
Posts: 16,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parish View Post
Wow, I'm almost at the end of DS9 season one and there really wasn't a bad episode in the batch.

"Duet" is the kind of sci-fi-as-metaphor content Trek doesn't do anymore — the Bajor/Cardassia relationship has overtones of Israel/Palestine, and the captive Cardassian was definitely a proxy for a Nazi administrator who disappeared to Argentina. I definitely didn't expect the episode to go the way it did in the final five minutes, from the Cardassian's breakdown to the final act of violence. Really great stuff. Weird that I don't think I've ever heard people talk about that particular episode... it's gonna stick with me.
I feel like the episode could have ended without Marritza's death-by-stabbing. It felt like a cheap way to get an emotional reaction from Kira, especially after the incredibly powerful scene just before it.
Reply With Quote
  #9317  
Old 07-13-2017, 04:37 AM
Parish's Avatar
Parish Parish is offline
Your life is forfeit
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rally, Nerf Cackolacka
Posts: 11,366
Default

I thought that capped the episode perfectly. She made her peace and saw the humanity (as it were) of someone she despised, and it helped her look ahead to peace. But it's not that pat, and just because she had a revelation doesn't mean anyone else shared it. It also highlighted the difference between DS9 and other Trek: DS9 is about being dug into a situation rather than flitting from scenario to scenario. Other Trek series can end their crisis of the week on a happy note, because it's on to the next planet for the next episode, but DS9 is about dealing with the realities of making the Federation work on a day-to-day basis. So I really like how that final act was framed as a standard optimistic Trek ending only to end in a moment of shattering brutality.
Reply With Quote
  #9318  
Old 07-13-2017, 05:37 AM
TirMcDohl's Avatar
TirMcDohl TirMcDohl is offline
The Goofiest Roebro
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Utah
Posts: 6,510
Default

I agree. Duet is a solid microcosm of DS9.
Reply With Quote
  #9319  
Old 07-13-2017, 12:23 PM
Meditative_Zebra's Avatar
Meditative_Zebra Meditative_Zebra is offline
Trinitron Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Halcyon Idyll
Posts: 6,805
Default

Well done Jeopardy, well done.

Quote:
Reply With Quote
  #9320  
Old 07-13-2017, 12:29 PM
Red Hedgehog's Avatar
Red Hedgehog Red Hedgehog is offline
For blood and gold
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 14,413
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parish View Post
Weird that I don't think I've ever heard people talk about that particular episode [Duet]... it's gonna stick with me.
Maybe the company you keep never watched much DS9? It is regularly held up as one of the series' best episodes.

(Your opinion that there are no bad season 1 episodes is much less commonly held - but it's sure as heck better than TNG's season 1)
Reply With Quote
  #9321  
Old 07-13-2017, 08:37 PM
Kate or Die!'s Avatar
Kate or Die! Kate or Die! is offline
I'll sleep when I'm dead
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York Peninsula
Posts: 3,088
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL View Post
Meanwhile on Voyager I just watched The Killing Game Parts I and II which has the Hirogen take over the ship prior to the episodes airing and enslaving the crew on the holodeck so the Hirogen can act out various violent events with them including a Klingon hunting party and World War II, with the Hirogen dressing up and acting as Nazi SS agents fighting against the Voyager crew as French resistance and oh my god the Hirogen are LARPing.
Okay okay, but like what if the entire ship was a holodeck?
Reply With Quote
  #9322  
Old 07-13-2017, 11:28 PM
Ludendorkk's Avatar
Ludendorkk Ludendorkk is offline
Chief Servbot
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lima, OH
Pronouns: He/Him
Posts: 3,108
Default

Duet is incredible television, and there's so much on that level to come

DS9 is good


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL View Post

Meanwhile on Voyager I just watched The Killing Game Parts I and II which has the Hirogen take over the ship prior to the episodes airing and enslaving the crew on the holodeck so the Hirogen can act out various violent events with them including a Klingon hunting party and World War II, with the Hirogen dressing up and acting as Nazi SS agents fighting against the Voyager crew as French resistance and oh my god the Hirogen are LARPing.

In this two-parter we see Seven singing at a club, a pregnant B'Elanna with a holo-babby, and Neelix as a Klingon leading a group of holo-Klingons.

It all comes to a head as the holographic Nazi HQ blows up, tearing a hole through several decks causing the holographic World War II to spill out into the ship because the Hirogen started sticking holo-emitters in every panel they could find. Then all the simulations combine and we have a holo-American army fighting against holo-Nazis and then holo-Klingons storm in to save the day on the streets of holo-France.

And then Janeway kills the traitorous Hirogen second-in-command and then SCENE MISSING and finally the Hirogen leave Voyager.

It is marvelous in its ridiculousness, and sort of the polar opposite of the kind of Trek that Duet is.
It really is like the height of quality Trek cheese
Reply With Quote
  #9323  
Old 07-14-2017, 02:03 PM
Parish's Avatar
Parish Parish is offline
Your life is forfeit
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rally, Nerf Cackolacka
Posts: 11,366
Default

They got right down to business from the very beginning of season two, huh? A political thriller three-parter to kick off the season. Does it keep up this momentum or is there still a while to go before the show fully embraces its episodic destiny?
Reply With Quote
  #9324  
Old 07-14-2017, 02:06 PM
Daikaiju's Avatar
Daikaiju Daikaiju is offline
King Of Space-Time
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 20,717
Default

Reposted from revelations thread;

Well now I know where Star Trek Discovery got its ship design.



Details from the proposed 1977 “Star Trek II” television series from Starlog #136 (1988)
Reply With Quote
  #9325  
Old 07-14-2017, 02:09 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8,536
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parish View Post
They got right down to business from the very beginning of season two, huh? A political thriller three-parter to kick off the season. Does it keep up this momentum or is there still a while to go before the show fully embraces its episodic destiny?
Its on and off. It never quite gets to the point where one episode flows into the other like modern TV does, but it def begins to do the Doctor Who thing where most episodes tie into a long term plot and are conscious of the ever changing geopolitical landscape.
Reply With Quote
  #9326  
Old 07-14-2017, 09:34 PM
Büge's Avatar
Büge Büge is offline
Toothsome!
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TO, ON, CA
Pronouns: She/Her
Posts: 16,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Its on and off. It never quite gets to the point where one episode flows into the other like modern TV does, but it def begins to do the Doctor Who thing where most episodes tie into a long term plot and are conscious of the ever changing geopolitical landscape.
There's definitely some real gems in Season 2, like "Necessary Evil", and "The Wire", but it still feels like they're finding their footing.
Reply With Quote
  #9327  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:17 PM
Ludendorkk's Avatar
Ludendorkk Ludendorkk is offline
Chief Servbot
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lima, OH
Pronouns: He/Him
Posts: 3,108
Default

Even in it's final, most serialized season, DS9 still has an episode devoted entirely to playing a game of baseball
Reply With Quote
  #9328  
Old 07-15-2017, 12:48 AM
Sarcasmorator's Avatar
Sarcasmorator Sarcasmorator is offline
Space dad
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 16,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludendorkk View Post
Even in it's final, most serialized season, DS9 still has a great episode devoted entirely to playing a game of baseball
And I don't even like baseball.
Reply With Quote
  #9329  
Old 07-15-2017, 07:08 AM
Parish's Avatar
Parish Parish is offline
Your life is forfeit
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rally, Nerf Cackolacka
Posts: 11,366
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Its on and off. It never quite gets to the point where one episode flows into the other like modern TV does, but it def begins to do the Doctor Who thing where most episodes tie into a long term plot and are conscious of the ever changing geopolitical landscape.
Honestly, that structure is probably ideal. Totally episodic shows tend to feel like they lack consequences, but totally serialized shows become exhausting if they don't have a premium-cable-style format (e.g. 10 or fewer episodes per season).

Also, yep, the McQuarrie Phase II designs made the rounds on social media when the Discovery was revealed. Between The Motion Picture, the Next Generation, and now there, there is pretty much no part of Phase II's abandoned material that hasn't been picked clean at this point.
Reply With Quote
  #9330  
Old 07-16-2017, 05:20 PM
Johnny Unusual's Avatar
Johnny Unusual Johnny Unusual is offline
till the sheriff stops by
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick
Posts: 8,072
Default

Turns out that, because it was the 80's, Star Trek did a clips show. I am super thankful they flashed back to the Ferengi from the Last Outpost.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anomaly , fascinating , four lights , get the cheese to sickbay , gold-pressed latinum , i'm sensing hostility , it's a faaaake! , khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan , live long and prosper , lt. barclay , no it's real!!! , o'brien's shoulder , octo-good , resistance is futile , reverse the polarity , science fiction , shaka when the walls fell , shut up wesley , star trek , tachyon , temba his arms wide , the punishment zone , there is one bridge! , welshy!!!! , wesley crusher

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts ©you, 2007