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  #3061  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:30 AM
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I've actually been loving this season. It's flawed, sure, yes, but it's also been wildly ambitious, has had some incredibly strong moments and captivating imagery, and after the core complaint about Episode 3 being "too predictable, played it too safe" I admired Episode 5 being willing to GO PLACES, and think heavier foreshadowing than they already had would've just weakened the heartbreaking shock of it all. I've found the show's pacing a bit slow and wheel-spinning at times (though of course punctuated with OH SHIT moments) so appreciate it erring on the side of too-fast now, building momentum in the final hours as things come to a head.

And while these episodes are definitely controversial, the majority of people I've talked to about it in person have mostly really been enjoying it. Sure, that's anecdotal, and I'm not pretending it's indicative of some overwhelming popular support, but I think it is important to remember that outside of certain Hot Take ecosystems the utter loathing for this season is by no means unanimous. Not even in this thread!

For my part, I agree and accept that it's "rushed", but that doesn't mean they're half-assing it, as the main sin of this season mostly seems to be them biting off more than they can chew. And honestly, I have a deep fondness for the unique texture that stories get when they're in 'gotta wrap everything up real quick' mode. It leads to an exhilarating 'story in overdrive' phenomenon, where things take on a frantic raw energy and even something mainstream and widely loved can feel kinda edgy and avant garde in their narrative burst of NEED TO DO EVERYTHING, introducing a weird creative tension that can never be reached when stories just take their time to the point of going slack.

And while I understand that being an acquired taste, and not making for conventionally proper storytelling etiquette, I will also go ahead and point out that the only major huge zeitgeist show I can think of where people didn't really complain about the overhyped ending was Breaking Bad, which wrapped everything up neatly and tidily and offered very little to take issue with...or talk about. And so almost everybody nodded in approval at it, and then wondered what else was on and barely talked about the ending ever again. While this show's ending already seems on course to have people talking and feeling ways about it for a loooooong time.

Love it or hate it, that is the power of STORY IN OVERDRIVE

But I do understand hating it, and while I don't agree with most of the specific complaints (and even less with suggestions for what would have been better) I definitely grasp and can appreciate the disappointment people feel, for a show they loved to be ending in a way they hate. It sucks when that happens, and I get why this season has left plenty of people feeling that way.

However.

I am kinda bummed out by people here and elsewhere acting downright ANGRY at the creators, as if this season is a personal insult. It reminds me of gamers using the term 'SLAP IN THE FACE', or believing that any flaw in a game is just due to the developers being lazy and/or willfully malicious. Dismissing the showrunners as idiots who are bad at their job, and assuming based on these episodes that everything they do from here on out will definitely be shitty is just liiiike...I mean, maybe it will be shitty? Maybe! 100% possible! But, to even be this worked up about it at all proves how much you loved the show up to this point. And unless you think the show was only ever good in spite of them, and that it's bad now entirely because of them, and that up 'til now making a strong adaptation of strong source material wasn't fraught with pitfalls and was instead as simple as shoving the books into one end of a whimsical Dr. Seuss-style machine and having completed episodes pop out the other end, I meeeeeaaaan...you sorta need to contend with the fact that, dirty as it might make you feel, you are legitimately a big fan of the majority of their work up to this point.

But if at this point you ain't feeling it, you're no longer a fan? Perfectly fair!

And insult the work as much as you like, but unless a creator does something genuinely monstrous or their work blatantly encourages a hateful idealogy (CHECK BACK IN IF ONE OF THEIR UPCOMING PROJECTS DOES EXACTLY THAT), giving them the benefit of the doubt for WHY their work wasn't to your liking is usually the better response. Dunking on creators personally is an unpleasant and unproductive way of engaging with art, where the road between 'good idea' and 'actual thing people can experience' is nothing but hard work and logistical nightmares and complications demanding compromises, no matter your budget. Many talented, hard-working people have made bad things. There is value in discussing the problems of the bad thing; there is very little value, maybe even negative value, in assuming the thing was bad just because the people in charge are morons who completely suck and didn't know any better.

Though HBO ironically sowed the seeds for people doing this when they started up the post-episode talky bits, giving angry fans short edited talking points to nitpick and convenient faces to blame and scowl at and make fun of.
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  #3062  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deptford View Post
the only major huge zeitgeist show I can think of where people didn't really complain about the overhyped ending was Breaking Bad, which wrapped everything up neatly and tidily and offered very little to take issue with...or talk about. And so almost everybody nodded in approval at it, and then wondered what else was on and barely talked about the ending ever again.
I've actually always been in the camp that thought that ending was too neat and tidy and would have been immeasurably improved by a single additional scene implying that Walt died sitting in that car at the start of the episode and everything from that point forward was the fantasy of a dying man in his last moments.

That said, agreed on your point!
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  #3063  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:03 AM
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Part of the reason that I dislike the current season so much is because I've been forgiving the past few poor seasons in the hopes that it would turn around by the end. The show has been going downhill since they ran out of book material, and season 7 had some of the worst nonsense in the series. Season 8 has been even worse (though largely because the previous episodes don't support what it's trying to do).

One of their upcoming projects is a show set in an alternate reality where slavery still exists. Also, their current project just had a scene where one of the main characters argued that her rape and abuse made her stronger.

So yeah, I don't feel bad about saying that I don't like them. I'm not particularly looking forward to seeing a movie from them set in the Star Wars universe either. Also, I'm kind of offended that you're trying to lump my posts in to the "hot take ecosystem," and also at the general attitude in your post. I'm glad that you're enjoying the show, but there's no need to police other people's opinions.
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  #3064  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:21 AM
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I think it's simultaneously true that (1) the creators do have some serious problems in the way they depict women and especially in their portrayal of rape that are worth criticizing and even disliking them and (2) there is definitely a hot take ecosystem of reactions to this most recent episode and the season as a whole.
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  #3065  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:27 AM
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I don’t care if there is or not. I don’t want to be lectured at about how I’m wrong to criticize artists, and I don’t want my opinion dismissed because of how it does or doesn’t align with the internet at large.
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  #3066  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:49 AM
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I feel like I clarified puh-lenty of times that I fully support everyone's right to have negative opinions about the season, but my opinion that "it is usually better to criticize content for being low quality rather than criticize the creator for being talentless" still seems worth sharing, when people sometimes lose sight of that. If you feel that advice is irrelevant to you, I won't insist or anything. Still, a perspective that I don't think is harmful or oppressive for me to put out on the internet, as folks can get a bit carried away in the opposite direction.

And the hot take ecosystem comment was in a whole other paragraph for a reason, and I even referred to this thread as being separate from it in the next sentence.
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  #3067  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deptford View Post
If you feel that advice is irrelevant to you, I won't insist or anything.
Well gee, thanks.

Your last two posts have been extremely patronizing. Your initial post was addressed to the forum at large, but directly responded to my comments. In your second you talked about putting your perspective out on the internet because of things that other people did, which is not what you were doing. You were directly responding to me. Posting on a small forum but talking around someone, and also conflating their opinions with the internet at large, is rude.

I agree that the internet at large goes way overboard, and I understand why that bothers you. I don't believe that creators are above all criticism. I think that we could have had an interesting discussion about this, but I'm not interested in being talked down to.
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  #3068  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:47 AM
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The series has been making some pretty big missteps since at least season 2 (the changes to Robb's storyline regarding Jeyne Westerling/Talisa were a mistake, IMO) and it's frayed more and more as the seasons have gone on. The Dorne subplot is such a mess that the show would have been better off if they just hadn't bothered with it. And characters' actions don't always seem to line up with their motivations. This has been especially bad in the last two or three seasons, where they're often contrived solely to get pieces in place for the endgame.

I would love more context for Benioff's “Themes are for eighth-grade book reports,” quote from this article. Without the full context, it just seems... ridiculously arrogant. But it might also explain a lot.
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  #3069  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:09 AM
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Y'all see this petition going around the internet for HBO to rewrite Season 8? Can you believe this shit? Entitled fans are the worst. I get that a lot of people aren't super happy with this season, but...ya know, come on. This is Mass Effect 3/The Last Jedi/etc. all over again...
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  #3070  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:13 AM
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I will say that, after tons of problematic stuff in prior seasons, there were moments in episodes 2 & 3 this season that gave me hope that the runners had started to give more consideration to their choices. Then Sansa said that line in episode 4 and I realized that they'd learned nothing. So that made me much more suspicious of how they handled Danaerys in ep. 5.
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  #3071  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:17 AM
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This meme made me “l o l”

Also did u know James Cameron directed the funny dragon romance scenes or something. More importantly, the relatable king does not care about Jon Snow. (I’m not watching that video and prefer to imagine he’s being dead serious)
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  #3072  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:17 AM
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I think it's probably important to remember that a TV show is a massive collaborative project, and so for example Season 8 Episode 2 can be a much stronger episode than others because totally different people were in charge of it.

Bryan Cogman has always been one of the strongest writers on the show, and so it doesn't tell you much about D&D changing one way or the other when Bryan Cogman does a great job with Episode 2, like he has basically always done.
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  #3073  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
Arya's story in this episode is one of the things that bothered other people that really didn't bother me. "Arya's been training and preparing to kill Cersei for years and Clegane talks her out of it in ten seconds!" Yeah, but he correctly points out that killing Cersei, who will die anyway, and which will result in her death as well, is very stupid, and Arya's generally a smart person.
The only thing that bothered me were the close-call scenes and just how much plot armor she had in comparison to civilians standing next to her. I feel they could've re-shot that scene a little bit more believably.
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  #3074  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:18 AM
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The only thing that bothered me were the close-call scenes and just how much plot armor she had in comparison to civilians standing next to her. I feel they could've re-shot that scene a little bit more believably.
I wonder how much plot armor she has in comparison to that horse, though.

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It's not set in stone, but no additional character growth needs to be done to get from point A to point B. She's already at point B. She'll likely cool down in the interim if more books come out as she moves from one continent to the other, but we know she is already teetering on the precipice of this kind of behavior.
This has kind of become my problem with the show. Through Season 4, and even most of the way through to the end of 6, it wasn't about being at point B. It was about the characters going where the characters as they were would go and who knew where that would take them, same as in the books. Season 7 started leaning a lot more into plot points and getting characters to them but it retained a lot more consistency with character motivations. Season 8 has decided it's the best way to approach the narrative in general no matter the price, apparently up to and including the respect of the actors. It's the primary source of everything people are taking issue with as far as I can tell.

If the whole show were like this I don't think anyone would be this upset, if at all. But going from one style of writing and then abandoning it entirely for another style of writing, and then doing it badly on top of that is just... wow. It's not okay to harass them for it and that petition is fucking ridiculous, but I totally get to be angry at the shitty decisions (and writing where applicable cuz yeah episode 2 is solid).

Last edited by Oathbreaker; 05-17-2019 at 12:41 AM.
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  #3075  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:22 AM
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I wonder how much plot armor she has in comparison to that horse, though.
That horse felt like it was just spawned right there with cheat codes.

Yara could've showed up with her fleet on Blackwater Bay, catching Euron by surprise.
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  #3076  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:30 AM
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I wonder how much plot armor she has in comparison to that horse, though.
If there was any question Arya's gonna kill someone again... well, behold a pale horse.
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  #3077  
Old 05-17-2019, 02:12 PM
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Considering the things Arya has survived up to this point, and the myriad number of times she should have died but didn't, to quibble about this honestly just seems kinda ridiculous. She should have died when her father was executed and a whole city was on the hunt for her. She should have died in the Lannister POW camp. She should have died at the Red Wedding. She should have died blind on the streets of whatever city. She should have died living in a den of elite assassins. She should have died when the undead marched on Winterfell. Arya is nimble, quick, and smart. After all we've seen, having her run about through a crumbling city and avoiding a bunch of rocks seems like one of the less ridiculous survivals she's pulled off, tbh.
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  #3078  
Old 05-17-2019, 02:19 PM
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She is avoiding aerial bombing that’s taking out... damn near every non-named character in the episode and she spends so much more time luckily escaping WMDs than anyone else. I agree: she should have died years ago.
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  #3079  
Old 05-17-2019, 02:33 PM
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"Sudden" plot armour in Game of Thrones complaints baffle me.

Jon fell into an icy pool while wearing heavy furs and armour.... while covered in zombies. He emerged unharmed an undetermined length of time later.

Arya was stabbed multiple times in the gut by a trained assassin and fell into a filthy canal. She emerged and bled profusely on the streets. The next time we see her she wakes up in bed as if she has just had a mildly restless sleep.

The show has been very silly for a very long time. Nothing sudden about it. (I promise none of this is directed at anyone here, just the general Last Jedi/Mass Effect 3 level of hyperbolic wailing going on)
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  #3080  
Old 05-17-2019, 03:16 PM
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I have wanted those very Starks dead for years and now I hope Dany roasts the whole d*ng bloodline in the finale. (she will not)
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  #3081  
Old 05-17-2019, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
"Sudden" plot armour in Game of Thrones complaints baffle me.

Jon fell into an icy pool while wearing heavy furs and armour.... while covered in zombies. He emerged unharmed an undetermined length of time later.

Arya was stabbed multiple times in the gut by a trained assassin and fell into a filthy canal. She emerged and bled profusely on the streets. The next time we see her she wakes up in bed as if she has just had a mildly restless sleep.

The show has been very silly for a very long time. Nothing sudden about it. (I promise none of this is directed at anyone here, just the general Last Jedi/Mass Effect 3 level of hyperbolic wailing going on)
I agree it's not sudden, but it did seem to happen (or at least more frequently) once they deviated from the books.
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  #3082  
Old 05-17-2019, 05:43 PM
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People complained about those situations, too, because they also strained credulity.
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  #3083  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:13 PM
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Dany walks into some fire, stays there all night, found alive with new dragons.

Everyone: "Oh, that's fine. This is fine. More than fine. YAAAS, QUEEN."

Arya somehow manages to survive the bombing of Dresden culling of King's Landing.

Everyone:

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  #3084  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:36 PM
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I'd like to clarify my comment was meant to point out the horse's sudden and unlikely plot armor and whether it has a similar amount as Arya. I'm not fussed about most plot armor. Though Jaime in that last episode was hilarious levels of bad. Dude was in better shape and grew a new hand after bleeding out from two HUGE stab wounds for fifteen minutes than he was before he ran into Euron.
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  #3085  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzarino Sbarro View Post
I have wanted those very Starks dead for years and now I hope Dany roasts the whole d*ng bloodline in the finale. (she will not)
I will fite you. The North Remembers.
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  #3086  
Old 05-18-2019, 09:46 AM
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The North might Remember but only Wyman Manderly will ever Do anything about it.
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  #3087  
Old 05-18-2019, 10:36 AM
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Wyman is fucking righteous, true.
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  #3088  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:19 PM
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Upset Jon Snow got to pet that fucking dog 😤
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  #3089  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:30 PM
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Emilia Clarke was very good. Love that she dressed like Skeletor in the end. Things sure got convenient after she (difficult to guess spoiler ) died! I guess I’ll just type a long sentence to preserve ambiguity for anyone who really wants it. Drogon really should’ve been messier.

Peter Dinklage bad here? But the material was very weak! Imo.

Obviously I wish the Starks had all been destroyed at this point but it was d*ng funny when Sansa told Edmure Tully (who) to shut the heck up

Kind of looking forward to the Naomi Watts prequel because she’s great at Instagram and I hope it leans into the dorky spooky fantasy shit.
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  #3090  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:57 PM
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I was really hoping "I once brought a jackass and a honeycomb into a brothel" would be the final line of the series. So close!
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