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  #571  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:15 PM
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Reading Wist's post, I draw three conclusions:

First: Wow, that's a lot of worldbuilding and history that were written into Delta and Fire Bomber 7, which I don't even know how to watch?

Second: Wow, I thought Mac 7 had had a happy ending, but I guess I need to watch both it and its OAVs to understand the above history?

Third: Wow, I actually need to watch Deltahahaha no I couldn't even finish that sentence I think I'll just TV Tropes it.
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  #572  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:34 PM
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The best things Delta and FB7 do is world-build. FB7 doesn't do a lot, but it does tell us how the people in-universe view the events of M7 and what they think happened to the fleet. Delta does a shitload of world building, and the most frustrating part of the movie-version is how it's all left on the chopping room floor. If you want to watch either FB7 or Delta, you'll have to do like everything in the franchise beyond Plus and get yourself fansubs. If you really wanted to, you could import the DVD/BDs for Delta, as those astonishingly came with official English subtitles, but the price of doing that is stupidly prohibitive.

Macross 7 does have a happy ending. But towards the end, NUNS orders the M7 fleet on a suicide mission to stop the Protodevilin - orders Capt. Max explicitly violates since NUNS is clearly just offering up the M7 fleet as a sacrificial lamb to buy time/hope the Protodevilin doesn't find the rest of humanity and he won't allow for it. So the vague implication at the end of M7, and asserted firmly in FB7 is that the M7 fleet is now AWOL/in a state of rebellion from the NUN as nobody has heard from them after the events of M7, despite us knowing they're safe and sound/repairing the fleet as of Dynamite 7 (which takes place a year after M7).

I don't regret watching Delta. It adds a lot to the franchise's lore, and that's probably the #1 reason I come to Macross, right behind cheesy love triangles and dope music. It just fails to live up to a lot of its promise, its narrative is too ambitious for how short the show is/spreads itself too thin among a huge cast, and ends with a bunch of tantalizing open ended questions. I think if you're a Macross fan, you should watch all the major entries to the franchise. The movies from a plot/lore perspective are fairly non-essential, and IMO the only reason to watch them is because they contain the franchise's best music. (Minmay's best songs are in DYRL; Sheryl's best songs are in the movies; Basara's best songs are in The Movie and Dynamite 7 which is basically a movie.) But definitely watch 7 at the least. Seven is actually amazing. I know it's polarizing but only to people who have forgotten love.
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  #573  
Old 09-13-2018, 03:26 AM
Joe McGuffin Joe McGuffin is offline
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
But definitely watch 7 at the least. Seven is actually amazing. I know it's polarizing but only to people who have forgotten love.
I love Seven too, but it's entirely fair that it sprains a lot of people's brains because it is a complete tonal outlier in the series (and especially since it was basically released as a companion piece to Plus, possibly the most emotionally intense Macross ever). It took me a long time to realize Seven was basically Hideo Kojima Presents Macross.
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  #574  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:47 AM
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I always tell people that 7 takes quite a while to ramp up (some of the stuff towards the beginning is painfully slow), but the payoffs at both mid-series and the ending are so, so worth it if you can just commit to the length and cheese factor. I love it to death, personally.

I think I only watched FB7 before subs existed for it, so I'd missed its clarification of the 7 fleet's status.

And yeah, unfortunately the Delta map is just too zoomed-out and abstracted to have any interesting info (and probably intended that way, as Wist surmised). If I recall correctly Eden is only like a dozen light years from Earth, which is almost nothing on a galactic scale, so it's no surprise it's not even visibly called out from that perspective now that I think about it.
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  #575  
Old 09-14-2018, 02:54 AM
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Macross 7 is amazing. And part of what makes it so amazing are the "bad" things you Kirin and Joe mention.

"Starting off slow" is soooo good. For a long while in the beginning, it's like a slice of life living on an interstellar immigration fleet, and what TV show anywhere gives you that? Besides, so many shows these days trip over themselves to go a million miles per hour, and it's really friggin' nice to have a show slow down once in a while and really dig into/explore a setting and let the tone soak in.

And being a "tonal outlier" is also great shit. I love Macross, but soooo much of it takes itself too seriously. And M7 is like screw that, we're going to have fun for once. It's great, because even in the show, almost the whole cast chides, lectures, and tells Basara off on a regular basis, "HEY MAN, I dunno if you heard, but this Macross shit is SERIOUS BUSINESS! You have no business being here, GTFO!"

And Basara is like, "Nah, you guys are stupid. My music is dope af. Check it out!" And he just ignores everyone and jams out in the middle of outer space dog fights with no chill.

And it just keeps happening over and over again. And eventually, Basara wins this epic war of attrition. And every single last character in the show either has to give it up to my man for being right and being the most amazing baller in the galaxy, or they fuckin' die for being a stubborn tool.

My position on it has evolved a lot over the years, but Macross 7 is now pretty firmly my favorite Macross.
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  #576  
Old 09-23-2018, 11:07 AM
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New Macross Delta movie:



"Entirely new" - this is how you get me excited. Since Delta's first movie went through the entire main plot of the TV show, my heart hopes against hope for a big crossover sequel that the TV show hinted at. But that's too much to expect... right?



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  #577  
Old 09-23-2018, 01:11 PM
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Huh. Neat. I guess our griping about the first movie was timely.
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  #578  
Old 10-28-2018, 04:42 PM
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Rewatching Max/Milia duels, as one does.



The closeup of Max pulling back into a reaction shot that also serves as a narrative hand-off is one of the coolest complex shots that I've seen been able to conciously grasp. It's also something that you literally couldn't do in anything but animation, because panels can suggest it, but not actually do it, and it would take far too many frames in live-action/photo-real CGI (to say nothing of the capabilities of contemporary state-of-the-art computer-controlled SFX and compositing, as impressive as those were).

There's plenty of other great stuff in the scene, too. I love the use of the frame and what positions Milia and Max occupy in it at the start of their duel to avoid discombobulating the viewer after the switch from Hikaru's PoV. And the "you didn't see it, but your brain did" stuff like Milia's suit's head occupying the top-right side of the shot when max flies into the cruiser, setting up spacial continuity with the next one (there's even a bit where, after Milia flies through the airlock, there's an interrupted flash of exhaust, indicating what turns out to be change of movement, which, with the aforementioned interstitial shot, lets your brain know where to look in the next shot).

It's also interesting that in a lot of ways, the equivalent scene in SDF is arguably as impressive - certainly more impressive in the context of the format and medium at the time (a lot of which had to do with Itano, Anno, and Studio Nue crew actually handing in their work on time). There's a plenty of great touches in the construction and detail work (god, those ground-effect water trails; and smokey-sax solo Dogfighter is best Dogfighter). But there's nothing like that full-frame shot of the Quaedluun-Ra from SDF, mainly because DYRL, for all its resplendent animation, doesn't actually do a lot of ultra-flashy sakuga stuff, except for Hikaru's trench beer-run.

To my recollection, the only real "check this out" shots in the movie are the previously-mentioned "King of Beers" one, and where they animate Roy's VF-1S on the Ones for his ace scene (which rules). The rest of the movie looks great (aside from some photography issues), but aside from, say, Itano's sublime shot-blocking, a lot of the great animation is simply content to be there. Like, the glamour-shot of the SDF-1 coming out of the shadows is amazing (what the hell is the cell-layering going on there; parallax star-background -> hyper-detailed painting of the SDF-1 -> complex hundred-frame layer of retracting negative-space -> alternating sheets of carefully-plotted nav-lights corresponding to two layers ago). I don't really feel a lot of people think about how much damn work went into a shot like that.
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  #579  
Old 10-28-2018, 05:05 PM
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I also just realized the pottery of Max chasing Milia into an alien cruiser instead of the SDF-1 like, er, SDF. Just what you'd expect from the masters, Mr. Ishiguro and Mr. Kawamori.
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  #580  
Old 10-28-2018, 05:19 PM
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I don't really feel a lot of people think about how much damn work went into a shot like that.
I actually think about it all the time. It's freaking ridiculous how many frames are in that. It's probably one of the more complicated animation shots this side of the glass explosions in Akira.

On a strictly storytelling level (which is where a lot of my love for Macross comes from) the Max & Milia dogfight is a thing I'm not a fan of, because it took one of the better and more integral plot lines of the show and compressed it into something flashy and hollow that ended up having very little plot consequence versus being the crux of the Human/Zentradi alliance. But from an aesthetic level, it's miiiiles ahead of the awkward/derpy knife fight the two had. The way they spin around each other in perfect unison is one of the more beautiful and poetic dances in animation.

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I also just realized the pottery of Max chasing Milia into an alien cruiser instead of the SDF-1 like, er, SDF. Just what you'd expect from the masters, Mr. Ishiguro and Mr. Kawamori.
Except for Plus, this is kinda the M.O. for all the Macross movies.
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  #581  
Old 10-28-2018, 06:50 PM
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I also just realized the pottery of Max chasing Milia into an alien cruiser instead of the SDF-1 like, er, SDF. Just what you'd expect from the masters, Mr. Ishiguro and Mr. Kawamori.
And he then promptly turns around, grows to giant size, and joins the fight in her mecha at her side. It was one of the DYRL bits that I liked the most, as it seemed to be saying “it’s not that Millia gets her head turned by Max’s manliness, but rather these two are so compatible that they cannot fly together without perfectly understanding each other”. It also calls forward gloriously to the end of M7.
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  #582  
Old 11-17-2018, 03:24 PM
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Over the last few months, I've been going on a journey with Macross 7, and I just recently finished it up. It's been one hell of a ride. It's goofy, but completely sincere— not a single ironic or cynical bone in its body. I love it.


I admit, though, that it took me some time to come around to that point of view. M7 has some issues with redundancy, repeating the same plot point several times with minimal variation and additional information, if any. Nowhere is that more clear (or more painful) than the beginning, where the first few episodes follow the exact same plot beats. But once it finds its groove, M7 proves itself a really special show.


As I said, Macross 7 is incredibly earnest and sincere. Basara is a bit of a sourpuss (okay, a lot of a sourpuss), but he is relentlessly, unfailingly optimistic; he sings not for fame, for entertainment or even for the art of it, but because he believes that music is a force for peace. He abhors violence and always tries to solve problems with song; the handful of times he's forced to take offensive action he is visibly shaken and disturbed. Nowhere is this more clear than the show's final episodes: the raid on the Protodeviln planet looks like the series has suddenly become a serious military anime, up to killing off Gamlin… only to quickly reverse course (including revealing that Gamlin survived!) and go right back to its hopeful tone. This repeats in the final showdown, where it all looks hopeless, but Basara and Sivil manage to finally reach Gepelnitch with song, and the Protodeviln peacefully depart. A show where the plot bends to the protagonist's will is normally irksome, but when that will is for peace and understanding it's hard not to root for him, and to be elated that it works out.

It's also great how Gamlin is introduced as a hotshot rival, but he quickly comes around, and by the end he and Basara are erstwhile allies. I didn't think I would like Gamlin half as much as I did.


Do not, however, take my earlier gripe as a generalized criticism of its pacing; though M7 can certainly be described as "slow", I would argue that's actually one of its greatest strengths. One of the things that sets the Macross franchise, and what sets it apart from its peers is its attention to civilian life: the homefront, the development of pop culture, and the projection of soft power. M7 goes all-in on this aspect by way of Fire Bomber, charting their rise to stardom and their impact on the fleet's culture— which is effectively precisely because of the time it takes. When Fire Bomber wins their first recording session, it's a hard-fought victory; when Fire Bomber starts playing in stadiums, you almost feel proud of them. A faster-paced show wouldn't have had the time for this (indeed, the other Macross shows don't), nor the time to indulge in the funnier and more interesting diversions, like dealing like dealing with the gossip press or entitled fans. And, really, how can one not love the idea of slice-of-life on an intergalactic transport city?


Of the few criticisms I have, the biggest is the bridge crew. I'm a latecomer to the franchise, so when I watched the original SDF I was pleasantly surprised that Claudia, Vanessa, Kim and Shammy didn't fit the later "bridge bunny" mold— they're all skilled professionals, they have clear personalities, and have lives outside of their job— and was left wondering at what point the series lost that. I'm sad to say it happened here in M7, where bridge officers Sally and Miho do little more than relay information and orders; on the very rare occasions they're seen outside the job, it's still about being peripheral to a man (either gossiping about Max's love life, or being "arm candy" to Docker). There's maybe four scenes where they display any independent character. It's a very disappointing change in the franchise's writing— and with M7's huge popularity, it's hard not to think it's ultimately responsible for codifying the "bridge bunny" trope in the franchise.



~

Addendum:

I'd be remiss if I didn't make special mention of the film, The Galaxy Is Calling Me!. Though closer in practice to a souped-up episode of the TV series, it presents the greatest standalone and self-contained story in the entire series: Basara investigates the source of some mysterious song energy, and finds the cause is Emiria, non-micloned Zentradi who is an aspiring singer. There's a sing-off, a cute scene where they bond and Emiria reveals she was inspired by Minmay in DYRL?, before it culminates in them teaming up to fend off the Protodeviln by way of a heartful and soulful duet that's among the best in the franchise. It's a high concept, and it succeeds with flying colours. I of course wish it were longer and more fully fleshed out, but what's here is still a triumph.


Last edited by conchobhar; 11-17-2018 at 10:41 PM. Reason: fixing typos and awkward wording
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  #583  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:07 PM
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I'm glad you liked the series!

On the topic of the bridge crew, I think it's hard to get a sample after 7, because the ship aspect of the series has been so de-emphasized. Like, every hero Macross gets its own bridge lineup, with [supposedly] named characters with full model sheets and such, but by Frontier and Delta, but they're competing with stuff like Rock & Roll High School and Walkure for screen-time, in two-cour shows that don't give them any room to breath. The only ones I really remember from Frontier are Bobby and Catherine (I honestly can't remember the captain's name). And Delta pretty much has Captain Johnson, and that's it.

Bobby's cool at least. Hyper-broad - especially compared to the OG Macross bridge crew - and thoroughly stuck in the center of the gay characters in anime vortex. And while I think that there's something to be said about the foundation of the character being a bad joke - "har, har, it's a male bridge bunny in Macross, but, get this, he's gay" - what could have been a second punchline - him being hyper hot-blooded - ends up working really well. And this is getting into how long it's been since I've watched the series, but I thought he served as good reader for a lot of the other characters, even if he's too broad to suggest much of an inner life of his own.
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  #584  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conchobhar View Post
Over the last few months, I've been going on a journey with Macross 7, and I just recently finished it up... I love it.
ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

Did you watch DVD rips? It seems like it from the screencaps you took. If that's the case it's too bad because M7 has one of the better BD remasters out there. It's soooo crisp! The show still looks fantastic in your screencaps though.

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Originally Posted by conchobhar View Post
A show where the plot bends to the protagonist's will is normally irksome, but when that will is for peace and understanding it's hard not to root for him, and to be elated that it works out.
A lesser show would have failed abysmally at what M7 tries to do. But when Basara declares at the end he's not gonna just move mountains, but the whole galaxy, I get shivers up my spine every time. M7 is too pure for this world.

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Originally Posted by conchobhar View Post
I'd be remiss if I didn't make special mention of the film, The Galaxy Is Calling Me!.
M7: The Movie is amazing. Basara finally finds a woman with whom he vibes with real chemistry for, and seems to actually express real sexual interest for probably the only time in the franchise. And it's amazing on so many levels, especially when he realizes the potential in-laws baggage there in a horrifying split second and immediately nopes out.

You are definitely remiss in not mentioning the OVAs however. Encore is a lot of fun. Basara encountering a rogue Meltran fleet is a classic. But I really, really love the episode where Milia gets a cold and wigs out because Zentradi don't get sick and she thinks she's dying. No other Macross show would ever dedicate an entire episode to such a premise. Never mind any other sci-fi anime like Gundam, etc.

I'm not seeing any screencaps for Dynamite 7 either. Besides Mylene's brief and horrendous B-plot (trigger warning), Dynamite 7 is peak Macross. Angel Voice is probably my favorite song/moment in the whole franchise.

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On the topic of the bridge crew
I'm honestly over bridge crews in Macross. They were this thing in the original show that was neat and served a purpose for that show. But the narratives of other Macross shows don't revolve around the actions on the Macross bridge nearly as much, and those shows are all better for it. When a Macross-thing tries to find its own identity and do its own thing is when the franchise excels. Macross sequels are at their worst when they attempt to be a Macross Greatest Hits and begin painting by numbers. Frontier and Delta are the worst offenders in that sense. Frontier excels when it's a show about flight school, or a show about the trials and tribulations of galactic stardom, which leaves very little room for bridge crews. Delta is at its best when it is exploring colony planets or moving the narrative focus off the bridge to the plane hangers. But when both shows begin leaning on "things fans expect from a Macross show" they both become snooze-fests. The de-emphasis of bridge crews into quaint reference is for the best, because it gives these other shows more time and space to do their own things and be good on their own merits. I just wish shows like Frontier and Delta had more strength of conviction to just completely relegate the bridge crew and have faith in their own stories the same way Plus and Zero does.
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  #585  
Old 11-17-2018, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peach View Post
On the topic of the bridge crew, I think it's hard to get a sample after 7, because the ship aspect of the series has been so de-emphasized. Like, every hero Macross gets its own bridge lineup, with [supposedly] named characters with full model sheets and such, but by Frontier and Delta, but they're competing with stuff like Rock & Roll High School and Walkure for screen-time, in two-cour shows that don't give them any room to breath. The only ones I really remember from Frontier are Bobby and Catherine (I honestly can't remember the captain's name). And Delta pretty much has Captain Johnson, and that's it.
It's been a while since I saw Frontier, so I could very well be forgetting some nuance (you made a good argument for Bobby), but they certainly exist in my mind's eye as little more than a set of stock characters. But it's not necessarily that I want a bridge crew to rival the depth of Vanessa, Kim and Shammy, which is effectively impossible unless they return to a military focus; rather, I just wish they'd attempt to imbue these characters with some personality and skills. That apply it to whatever other minor characters occupy similar roles in latter entries, too.

Just as an example of a crew that, though minor, I still felt had character: the Megafauna from G-Reco.


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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
M7: The Movie is amazing. Basara finally finds a woman with whom he vibes with real chemistry for, and seems to actually express real sexual interest for probably the only time in the franchise.
I don't see any sexual interest on Basara's end; when Emiria goes in for a kiss, he doesn't even react. The most he does is recline on her bicep and smile at her, which— size permitting— doesn't seem terribly removed from how he acts around Rex or Sivil.

That being said, I do sort of ship them, because they do indeed have good chemistry and the size difference is just very funny to me. The series doesn't do enough with full-size Zentradi in normal situations, it's comedy gold.

Quote:
You are definitely remiss in not mentioning the OVAs however. Encore is a lot of fun. Basara encountering a rogue Meltran fleet is a classic. But I really, really love the episode where Milia gets a cold and wigs out because Zentradi don't get sick and she thinks she's dying. No other Macross show would ever dedicate an entire episode to such a premise. Never mind any other sci-fi anime like Gundam, etc.
I watched Encore, but I didn't have much to say about them— at least not in the context of a broad overview of the series (Galaxy got a shout-out because, again, it's my favourite slice of M7). But yes, the three episodes are all pretty good. My favourite is the second, "On Stage", which serves as origin story of Fire Bomber but continues the franchise's grand tradition of woefully-inaccurate in-universe histories. That it's framed as being watched by Miho and Sally is neat too, since it's one of the few moments they get to be real people.

Quote:
I'm not seeing any screencaps for Dynamite 7 either. Besides Mylene's brief and horrendous B-plot (trigger warning), Dynamite 7 is peak Macross. Angel Voice is probably my favorite song/moment in the whole franchise.
Dynamite 7 is up next! But since it takes the story forward, unlike Encore and Galaxy, I wanted to write my thoughts on the "main" Macross 7 story first.

But what's this about a trigger warning? Is there something I should be aware of…?
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  #586  
Old 11-18-2018, 12:28 AM
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Rape triggers: Mylene’s manager tries to rape her; gets halfway there before Ray busts in and saves her. It’s pretty graphic, comes out of nowhere, and has like nothing to do with anything except to show Kawamori’s disdain with music industry types. It’s thankfully a short, small part of the show, but like. It’s dumb and shouldn’t be there and is completely out of place in an otherwise amazing OVA series that sans this I'd put up there with Plus.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot the manager is gay, so it's like gee, thanks. The first gay character in Macross and she's a sex predator. Thanks, Kawamori.

Last edited by WisteriaHysteria; 11-18-2018 at 12:39 AM.
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  #587  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:18 PM
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Yeah, that scene is just so unnecessary and awful. But the rest of Dynamite is indeed aces. It's one of the few times before Delta that we get a somewhat in-depth look at another humanoid culture besides humans and Zentradi, which is a nice change of pace. And who doesn't love space whales?
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