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  #121  
Old 03-16-2018, 06:28 AM
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  #122  
Old 03-16-2018, 07:26 AM
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I was thinking about the leather bar scenes, and as icky as they are in 2018 sensibilities, think how fucked up it was during the AIDS crisis.
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  #123  
Old 03-17-2018, 11:13 AM
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I want to apologize to Madhair for using insulting language.

I do think that in the flurry of meta-discussion about the mod action and discussion afterwards, some core points about sexual assault and rape culture have been brushed under the rug, and I want to return to this. There are at least two separate issues about sexual assault in play here that got kind of mooshed together in the meta-rules discussion, and I think it's worth untangling them.

(Issue 1) Thorazine.

Personally, I don't think in and of itself that Thorazine is necessarily strong indicator that Peter Venkman is a sexual predator, because he's both a Movie Psychologist and also a Sci-Fi Ghost Fighter in a comedy. I'm honestly not sure if 300ccs of Thorazine is even meant to be taken literally. I would probably say this isn't really a clincher one way or the other for me, devoid of any other context. (There is a lot of other context though, see below.)

On the other hand, I do think too narrow of a focus on Thorazine obscures/erases an important and insidious aspect of Peter as a sexual predator that I was trying to focus on, and that's . . .

(Issue 2) Venkman's first scene in the movie (fraud and abuse of power in pursuit of sex and "full-on rape")

I want to rephrase what I think were the insulting posts so that they are more civil and (I think) beyond any reasonable dispute within the norms of this community:

As Issun says, sexual predators are not always easy to recognize. But, someone like Peter Venkman who abuses their power and status to commit elaborate fraud schemes, with the intent of tricking potential sexual partners into being alone with them in order to exploit that power imbalance for sex, is easy to identify as a dangerous sexual predator. It's a red flag for a sexual harassment, sexual assault, and even rape. This is just an issue of basic awareness about sexual abuse.

It doesn't require any knowledge of Thorazine or a close reading of his pursuit of Dana to parse this out. It's all there, in Peter's first scene. The focal point of my previous discussion was never about browbeating anyone over Thorazine (which in my opinion is inconclusive and apparently both Madhair and I are basically in agreement upon anyway), but always this separate issue of whether abusing power to trick vulnerable people into sex could be a red flag for rape. I think that it pretty clearly is, and that was met with incredulity and an offhanded dismissal.

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Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
I'm really confused as to what behaviour that Venkman exhibits in Ghostbusters makes him a "dangerous predator". I'm not trying to undermine anyone because I haven't seen the movie in a while, but I think that kind of language is kinda... I don't know what the word I'm looking for is, but maybe flattering to actual dangerous predators?
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What would you call a researcher at a university who conducts fake paranormal experiments as a pretense to trick young women (presumably students) into being alone with him, and starts moving in with creepy touching and flirtation as soon as he gets the chance?

Peter's first scene is sexual harassment on its own merits, and it's a textbook case of grooming a target for sexual assault.

Someone who behaves like Peter in his very first scene a dangerous sexual predator at least, probably worse.
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Probably worse? Like a full-on rapist? From the flashcards scene?

I mean, I don't agree
It's a very memorable scene, the first scene introducing the protagonist. I don't think the basic facts of the scene were ever in dispute. He's abusing power to commit fraud in pursuit of sex with vulnerable young people, either so you laugh at him as a pathetic sleaze (as AV argues) or so you laugh with him, complicit as a viewer in his scheme (as Gaer argues). Personally, I think the scene contains elements of both of those readings, simultaneously: Peter is a sleaze you can laugh at, and also it assumes a viewer who is willing to engage in a degree of complicity with Peter.

Anyway, back to the main point, the thing is that being a "full-on rapist" isn't just about assaulting strangers in a blind alley, or secretly drugging someone. More often than not, it's more subtle. Being a "full-on rapist" in many cases means acquaintance rape or date rape escalated by someone like Peter Venkman, in his first scene of this movie. That's why I think it's important to recognize the first scene for what it is, and this is the point I distracted from by using insulting language.

Rape as frequently understood in public imagination is too frequently seen only as a sudden attack in a blind alley or being drugged by a stranger. Exploiting power dynamics in order to trick or trap someone into sex falls short of that bright line, and so it gets pushed aside as not quite meeting the definition of "full on-rape." But Peter's abuse of power in that first scene reflects sexual harassment and yes even rape as it exists commonly in actual practice, as part a larger network of power imbalances that enable a systematic erosion of consent, aiming to push someone into a situation where they can't say "no." Peter, as a lovable misanthrope who also has concocted an elaborate system of attempting to fraud his way into sex with vulnerable young people who admire him, is the very picture of how a serial sexual harasser and even a "full-on rapist" operates in our society. If you've read any recent MeToo narratives, their stories are full of real life Peter Venkmans, pathetic men who abuse their little fiefdoms to get sex from people they hold any advantage or leverage over at all.

I think that we should be able to agree: A university researcher who abuses his power and status to commit elaborate fraud schemes, with the intent of tricking student subjects into spending time with him alone so he can hopefully have sex with them based on false pretenses, is a sexual predator. And abuse of power in order to commit fraud to trick vulnerable people into sex is, in itself, behavior indicative of a potential "full-on rapist."
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  #124  
Old 03-17-2018, 07:34 PM
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I finally saw the third movie and I think it's fantastic.
While the original movie was first and foremost a screwball comedy about two brains and a con man starting a business (and Winston was also there), the new movie takes a deep dive into the Ghostbusters being dedicated scientists who nobody believes, and more importantly who nobody even takes seriously or listens to because they're women.
There's something poignant in how their research gets shut down. When their work is brought to the attention of a male authority figure, he notes that he was completely unaware of it before making it clear that he won't support it and throws them out. And when the G-men show up and admit ghosts are real, their instructions are to stay quiet and stop making waves while they go to work publically disgracing the Ghostbusters in order to keep up appearances.
This is what men do, society-wise. When they notice something they don't have, they must own it. And if they don't want it, nobody gets to have it.

The central villain is a different kind of commentary, about the kind of very real monster that haunts us even today. He's a radicalized loser who thinks the world owes him something, and so has decided to make the world pay through excessively violent retribution. We never actually see how or why he got this way, and the movie implies it doesn't matter; what matters is that the Ghostbusters have all fought tooth and nail to make something of themselves in a society that legitimately and demonstrably treats them the way he claims to have been treated. Meanwhile, he's essentially stolen Abby and Erin's research and turned it into a weapon. He goes on to steal Kevin's body, and finally to steal Gozer's schtick by becoming a giant destroyer based on a beloved pop culture icon; only this time, the icon is actually beloved in our universe.

I like Holtzmann. She's smart and weird like Egon, but has the deadpan sass that most people remembered Venkman for. She also builds and upgrades their equipment, which is something Egon was only implied to have done. She even gets to have a real moment at the end with her toast! Awww.
I also like Kevin. He's just pants-on-head stupid and it's hilarious.

Probably the worst part of the whole movie is that it's retroactively become a commentary on itself. The all-women team was dismissed out of hand and vehemently opposed by the same kind of people the villain was meant to embody, and despite earnest effort it faced critical opposition informed by unfair expectations. It seems likely to become an anomaly within the franchise. (Remember when Sony announced a second new movie to pointedly feature an all-male cast, as if to say "Don't worry boys, we really don't know how this one got away from us"?)
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  #125  
Old 03-18-2018, 01:34 AM
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Most importantly, and I can't believe you didn't mention this, Holtzman builds a special glove that serves no purpose except to let her punch a ghost!

Man, I need to rewatch that movie.
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  #126  
Old 03-18-2018, 04:39 AM
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It's great fun and the fact there probably won't be a sequel really pisses me off.
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  #127  
Old 03-18-2018, 06:05 AM
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I wish the reboot were less talky. It goes out of its way to cram jokes into a lot of scenes that needed more room to breathe and it makes the movie come off as needy and diffident. Otherwise it's a lot more fun and interesting than the first two. Visually, even; the hypersaturated breakfast cereal colour pallet really does a lot to set it apart tonally from the comparatively dour original.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaidyer View Post
I like Holtzmann. She's smart and weird like Egon, but has the deadpan sass that most people remembered Venkman for.
Also: canonically gay, the two sweetest words in the English language.

apparently Kate McKinnon has a history of being pretty transphobic though, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  #128  
Old 03-18-2018, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
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apparently Kate McKinnon has a history of being pretty transphobic though, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What? No! Dang, that sucks.

GB3 is a really good movie that is for some reason filmed entirely like a sketch show. It’s a weird stylistic choice, but still funny & totally worth watching.
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  #129  
Old 03-18-2018, 10:32 AM
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We really just can't catch a break with this franchise, huh.
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  #130  
Old 03-18-2018, 10:44 AM
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but the internet told me ghostbusting girls are bad
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  #131  
Old 03-18-2018, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
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Kate McKinnon has a history of being pretty transphobic though, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
What? No! Dang, that sucks.
She's had some transphobic characters/jokes over the years that she hasn't apologised for or expressed any regret over. I'm not sure when these characters appeared (less enlightened times, perhaps), but yeah, it kinda sucks. Hopefully someday she'll acknowlege they weren't okay.
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  #132  
Old 03-18-2018, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
She's had some transphobic characters/jokes over the years that she hasn't apologised for or expressed any regret over. I'm not sure when these characters appeared (less enlightened times, perhaps), but yeah, it kinda sucks. Hopefully someday she'll acknowlege they weren't okay.
Google-fu suggests about a decade ago. Hopefully someone pushes her on it in an interview or something.
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  #133  
Old 03-20-2018, 10:42 AM
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The secret weirdest thing about Ghostbusters is that it showcases a bunch of pieces of bespoke pop music written specifically about the events of the film. It's almost a musical, but none of the characters participate or acknowledge the music. I can't think of any other film that treats its soundtrack this way.
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  #134  
Old 03-20-2018, 10:51 AM
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Toy Story
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  #135  
Old 03-20-2018, 11:04 AM
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When I was a kid, I honestly thought this song, which plays when the containment unit is shut down, was a direct reference to the "magic word" exchange Venkman has with the EPA guy.

To a 5-year-old (and kind of ironically, considering the discussion so far), this movie can really reinforce the importance of the word "please."
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  #136  
Old 03-20-2018, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teg View Post
The secret weirdest thing about Ghostbusters is that it showcases a bunch of pieces of bespoke pop music written specifically about the events of the film. It's almost a musical, but none of the characters participate or acknowledge the music. I can't think of any other film that treats its soundtrack this way.
Last year I happened upon the soundtrack for The Real Ghostbusters cartoon and fell down a rabbit hole looking it up (I was convinced it was a Haim Saban/Shuki Levi joint, but alas). Was never really a fan of the show, but watching a few of them I was impressed at how the pop soundtrack gives the show a similar feel to the movie. (I didn't notice if it synced up in the same way but wouldn't be surprised).
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  #137  
Old 03-20-2018, 11:27 AM
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Reminds me of the Bruce Willis Friends' paradox.
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  #138  
Old 03-20-2018, 06:06 PM
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A random pop song, written as a random pop song, which happened to get tossed onto a movie's soundtrack for its formal release, existing in that movie as just a single, doesn't exactly strike me as a "paradox" in need of explanation.
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  #139  
Old 03-20-2018, 08:21 PM
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Teen Titans Go! certainly had a fun take on this "paradox" when it had Weird Al playing Darkseid.
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  #140  
Old 03-20-2018, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by four-so View Post
Reminds me of the Bruce Willis Friends' paradox.
Here's how Last Action Hero handled that kinda thing.

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  #141  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:11 AM
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Ah, Last Action Hero. I haven't seen that movie in ages.
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  #142  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:16 AM
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Part of me still wants a poster of Sylvester Stallone as the Terminator.
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  #143  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:43 AM
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Part of me still wants a poster of Sylvester Stallone as the Terminator.
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  #144  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:44 AM
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They could have a Bad CG Young Sly fight the Bad CG Young Arnold from Salvation!
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  #145  
Old 03-21-2018, 12:50 PM
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They could have a Bad CG Young Sly fight the Bad CG Young Arnold from Salvation!
I think that was Genysis...Genesys? Super Nintendo.
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  #146  
Old 03-22-2018, 03:25 AM
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Both, actually.
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  #147  
Old 03-22-2018, 07:35 AM
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32X had CG Young Arnold and CG Late 80s Arnold. Which, in retrospect, may have been Present Day Arnold with lots of makeup.

Either way, looked way better than the plastic man that was in Salvation.
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  #148  
Old 03-22-2018, 09:27 AM
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Here in the UK it was called Terminator: Megadryve

This is reheated madhair60 material but its good shit
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