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  #8611  
Old 11-02-2016, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ThricebornPhoenix View Post
Yeah, it goes over the line, but there's no actual malice in it.
I don't completely buy that line of thought. Not when Bones shows his 'respect' for Spock by shouting new racial epithets at him every episode with very little provocation, in a manner that's horrifically unbecoming of a professional. Like, I don't show respect for even my closest of friends by going, "Why you squinty-eyed, slope-headed, dog-eating, yellow-skinned, communists!" Sure McCoy had a certain amount of respect for Spock, but that doesn't excuse his behavior or mean he isn't racist. It's actually, in fact, very reminiscent of classical Southern gentlemanly racism.
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  #8612  
Old 11-02-2016, 05:30 PM
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Bones went to Ole Miss, so...
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  #8613  
Old 11-02-2016, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Because everyone loves Bones
I'm taking this quote wildly out of context to note that, during a recent marathon watching of the Animated Series with friends, the reduction of McCoy's character to "walking disaster area who ruins everything he touches, and is also racist sometimes" became a running gag so overt it's hard to believe they weren't doing it on purpose. He is hilariously terrible there.

Spock came out of them very well by contrast, possibly because Nimoy has a terrific radio voice.
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  #8614  
Old 11-03-2016, 06:56 PM
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Rewatching Rocks and Shoals, and there's a brief conversation about war near the climax of the episode. Look at the way that O'Brien, Nog and Goldshirt #1 are protesting the plan to ambush the Jem'hadar and Sisko shouts them down. It made me realize that they probably don't know the pain of personal loss the way Sisko does, and they're still clinging to the idea that there's "rules" in war. I think a different Starfleet captain, one that hadn't had to see a loved one die in a war against an implacable foe, wouldn't have silenced that kind of moral debate. It's a small moment, but it does deepen my appreciation of the series as a deconstruction of the Roddenberry ideal.
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  #8615  
Old 11-03-2016, 07:04 PM
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No other captain has had a family!
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  #8616  
Old 11-03-2016, 08:25 PM
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I think a different Starfleet captain, one that hadn't had to see a loved one die in a war against an implacable foe, wouldn't have silenced that kind of moral debate. It's a small moment, but it does deepen my appreciation of the series as a deconstruction of the Roddenberry ideal.
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No other captain has had a family!
It's worth noting that:

Kirk had a wife and unborn child murdered in cold blood right in front of him. Then he had a son, also murdered as pleaded helplessly for his life. Those things certainly affected him and his judgments (see: his perma-bachelor life, and Undiscovered Country)

Picard may not have lost family in the same way, but he lost the Stargazer in an event that undeniably rattled his soul and clouds his judgment later in his career with regards to being unwilling to put his ship and crew in danger, or give up either for dead.

Archer lives through space-9/11 and it takes him to extremely dark places where he pretty much loses all his idealism and is willing to bend or break his moral values in order to protect his crew/Earth.

Janeway had fiance... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  #8617  
Old 11-04-2016, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Picard may not have lost family in the same way, but he lost the Stargazer in an event that undeniably rattled his soul and clouds his judgment later in his career with regards to being unwilling to put his ship and crew in danger, or give up either for dead.
Picard also feels pretty responsible for what he did as Locutus, even if he wasn't really in control of himself, which leads to him being pretty genocidal towards the Borg in subsequent encounters (I Borg, First Contact) and is likely what steeled his resolve under torture in Chains of Command - he was determined not to be party to another disaster like Wolf 359.
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  #8618  
Old 11-04-2016, 11:58 AM
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In That Which Survives, Kirk Bones and Sulu (and some other guy I didn't bother to learn the name of) pop on down to an artificial planet to figure out what the heck it's there for when whoops, there's a massive explosion and the Enterprise disappears. And on the Enterprise there's an explosion and the planet disappears, so both groups figure that the other is dead. In truth, the Enterprise was just apparently blasted clear across the galaxy

While Spock and Scotty are trying to get back to where they were and see exactly how dead anyone is, the landing party is being menaced by several identical women made of antimatter keyed in to each of them, who are obsessed with giving murder-hugs.

Anyway, the Enterpise returns just in time to save everyone by shooting the computer making women and we get a hasty unsatisfying explanation for everything (aliens were making a spare planet, then died of disease, and the security computer was still on, killing people with anti-matter duplicates of the last surviving alien for some reason).

To the episodes credit, they killed off a blue shirt this time.
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  #8619  
Old 11-04-2016, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
DS9 - tackling race and gender in the mid-90s in a way that would never get on TV today.
I watched Badda-Bing Badda-Bang for the first time last week, and something that caught me off-guard was that when Kassidy asks Sisko why he hasn't visited Vic Fontaine, Sisko starts talking at length about how offensive he finds the idea of romanticising a time when the civil rights movement hadn't taken shape, and how the best a black person could expect in a Vegas casino of 1962 was to be serving the drinks.

Kassidy protests that Vic's program is supposed to be an ideal of how things should have been, and Sisko comes round in the end, but as someone who had the same concerns whenever Vic showed up (and with other works that ignore unsavoury historical contexts in favour of escapism) I was surprised to see it addressed so directly.
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  #8620  
Old 11-08-2016, 04:08 PM
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Welp today's election day in the States and I needed something to keep my mind off the utter mess, so what was the next DS9 episode in line to watch?

Profit and Lace.

aaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuggghh, the timing


While it wasn't quite as dire as I was fearing, it's still easily the most cringe-worthy episode in DS9, quite probably the worst one overall too.


Though it was ALMOST all worth it for the Quark/Odo hug at the end. Almost.

Maybe if they actually had Quark learn something at the end like it was so very close to almost doing it might not have been so bad, but no, he snaps back to his old self begging for Oomox from one of his employees.

Which, uh, the episode started with him basically threatening to fire her for not being "nice" enough to him. Seems like the perfect lesson they could have had him learn after all of it. Guess not though!

Oh that wacky Quark!
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  #8621  
Old 11-09-2016, 11:22 AM
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The Lights of Zelda (which is is what Autocorrect thinks the episode is called) is important for two reasons; first it explained to me why the Star Trek wiki is called "Memory Alpha" and it's an episode about ghosts! With no other explanation than "Ghosts" forthcoming!

Anyway, the Enterprise is ferrying the new head-librarian to a giant super Library called Memory Alpha and the trip is slightly eventful since it turns out that Scotty has found someone he loves almost as much as he loves scotch and fixing spaceships in her. Also, the Enterprise gets smacked right in the face by a giant sparkly cloud that gives her a concussion and clairvoyance, and everyone else various temporary brain traumas.

Then the Sparkle Cloud smacks into Memory Alpha and gives everyone on board it rather more fatal and permanent brain trauma, then it doubles back and gives Librarian another concussion migraine. Around this point Kirk figures the cloud is targeting her specifically so he tells her to just let it; aneurysm be damned. And she does because Kirk.

And, as it turns out, it's not just a cloud of sparkling lights, it's a giant electric storm cloud made ENTIRELY OUT OF G-G-G-GHOSTS!!!

AHHHHHH!

Anyway, GHOST CLOUD has been looking around the galaxy for centuries trying to find someone with the right brain-chemistry to let them possess a new body since being a space cloudnof GHOSTS kind of sucks, and they don't care how fatal the experience is to anyone else.

So Bones figures out how to cure Being Haunted (yessssss) by plopping Librarian Girl into a hyperbaric chamber and screwing up her body chemistry until she's poisonous to ghosts!!!

Then she resumes her duties being the head of Nerd Central, and probably sets herself to cleaning up all the, you know, corpses...
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  #8622  
Old 11-09-2016, 12:17 PM
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I think several observations above explain it; the Data thing, and also The Next Generation is Trek at its most utopian — Pulaski does feel like a throwback to an older era and doesn't quite mesh. I also don't think it's a stretch to say a certain corner of the sci-fi audience doesn't deal well with women exhibiting strong personalities. Anyway, she's prickly and flawed, but interesting for it.
We have this discussion about Pulaski about once a year. While I don't think Pulaski is always that bad, her worst episodes make her completely unlikable. Her prickly nature and prejudice are supposed to make her more interesting, but the TNG writers never develop the sympathy needed for fans to put up with her negative attributes.

Last time she came up, I wrote my thoughts down on her problems and came up with this:

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Originally Posted by Red Hedgehog View Post
McCoy was certainly a little bit racist, but his banter with Spock could at least be read to come across as good-natured ribbing. Pulaski comes off as downright mean to Data (refers to him as "it", intentionally mispronounces his name, questions his ability to perform basic tasks, gripes about how she is forced to consider him alive). These are the traits they give to the clear villain of the season's best episode, Measure of a Man. And she doesn't just needlessly insult Data, but does the same for Picard and Wesley.

Take the episode "Unnatural Selection" which seems like it was an attempt to humanize her, but it instead feels like a come-uppance for her behavior:

In this episode, she argues with Picard for the sake of arguing. It's not that she doesn't want to take shit from Picard, it's that she doesn't even bother to have a conversation with him (even going so far as to keep arguing after he agrees with her request, because isn't paying enough attention to him to hear him). She has a whole scene where, after Data agrees to help her by piloting a shuttle for her, she uses the trip to insult him, speechifying about what it is to be human, and assigning to him a selfishness he has never demonstrated. She even lies to him!

Really, I think writers hung her out to dry by making her such an ugly person that doesn't really make sense would be in such a position. Even in one of her better character episodes (Up the Long Ladder), Worf makes a point on calling her out for needlessly insulting people. Why would that be a desirable personality trait? It seems like maybe some in the writing/producing staff wanting her to slowly coming around to respect Data, but the writer's strike probably put the kibosh on that, so one episode after acknowledging that Data did a good thing, she's back to telling him how awful he is. (Sometimes this even happens in the same episode - see Elementary, Dear Data).

It's beyond clear that the writers wanted Pulaski to be McCoy but turned up a notch, but it turns out that "turning McCoy up a notch" crosses him over the line from cranky doctor into jerk.
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  #8623  
Old 11-09-2016, 12:28 PM
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Wesley Crusher sure is a jerk when it comes to cute, shape-changing ladies.

Wes, my dude. You turned your back on a world of sexy possibilities.
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  #8624  
Old 11-09-2016, 12:30 PM
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Strangely, not the last time he would make a similar error.
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  #8625  
Old 11-09-2016, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
Strangely, not the last time he would make a similar error.
I know which choice I'd make if the only thing standing in the way of being with Ashley Judd was giving up all free will.

(That story kinda ends in the same place no matter what happens, as it turns out)
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  #8626  
Old 11-09-2016, 12:55 PM
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More to the point, he interrupted a date so that he could look at a video game console under a microscope so that he could investigate why everyone thought it was so fun to play.

Absent any other factors, I mean, yeesh, Wes.
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  #8627  
Old 11-09-2016, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
More to the point, he interrupted a date so that he could look at a video game console under a microscope so that he could investigate why everyone thought it was so fun to play.

Absent any other factors, I mean, yeesh, Wes.
It's about ethics in The Game.
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  #8628  
Old 11-09-2016, 01:03 PM
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Wesley Crusher sure is a jerk when it comes to cute, shape-changing ladies.

Wes, my dude. You turned your back on a world of sexy possibilities.
I love how they try make Wesley Crusher out to be a "bad boy" in that episode.

The 2nd season's writing was... not the best.
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  #8629  
Old 11-09-2016, 01:14 PM
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It's about ethics in The Game.
Don't hate the player, etc.
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  #8630  
Old 11-09-2016, 01:47 PM
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Getting slightly political - The Bell Riots will line up perfectly with the end of a Trump 2nd term.

I really could use some good old fashioned Star Trek optimism right about now. The new show can't come soon enough.
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  #8631  
Old 11-10-2016, 05:25 AM
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Requiem for Methuselah is another episode with a better title than plot. Once again, the Enterprise is off fetching medicine (its for them, this time, however, so they're actually going to do a good job of it for once), and the only place to find the medicine they need is on a private planet owned by an eccentric recluse named Flint.

Anyway, Flint agrees to help when he hears that the Enterprise is sick with what's basically the bubonic plague, which he describes vividly, as though he was there. Also, his house has undiscovered and brand new works from Leonardo Da Vinci and songs from Brahms. And by this point is super obvious what's happening but there's still, like, 30 minutes left in the episode, so Kirk flirts with Flints daughter (or wife? Or sister? No idea what their relationship is...) and is menaced by floating bowling balls and then Flint says he's secretly a Highlander, he's been alive for thousands of years and he's been All The Famous People. Then he got bored and moved to a private planet and spent all his Time trying to build an equally immortal robo-wife. Then she explodes because she can't choose between staying with Flint or leaving with Kirk.

Then Flint hands over the medicine and learns that being Immortal was conditional to being exposed to Earths environment, so he'll age and die Normally now. Also, Spock uses his telepathy to make Kirk forget about the girl so he'll stop being sad about leaving her, making me question how often thats happened.
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  #8632  
Old 11-10-2016, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
Then Flint hands over the medicine and learns that being Immortal was conditional to being exposed to Earths environment, so he'll age and die Normally now. Also, Spock uses his telepathy to make Kirk forget about the girl so he'll stop being sad about leaving her, making me question how often thats happened.
I'm telling you, man, "The Paradise Syndrome" broke Kirk. I'm sure it was just due to sloppy writing in the rushed, under-budgeted third season, but he loses his previous sense of detachment and cunning when it comes to relationships after that episode. It's a clear dividing line.
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  #8633  
Old 11-10-2016, 07:36 AM
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Yeah, but this seems to be the only since then that he actually cared. And he did a few Times before that too.

Just tossing out the idea that Spocks scrambled his brains more than once.
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  #8634  
Old 11-11-2016, 11:57 AM
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Spock is the ultimate wingman.

In The Voyager Conspiracy Seven downloads the internet into her brain while she sleeps so she doesn't have to read reports anymore, and instantly becomes a conspiracy theorist. 100% actual hard science in this episode.
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  #8635  
Old 11-12-2016, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Getting slightly political - The Bell Riots will line up perfectly with the end of a Trump 2nd term.

I really could use some good old fashioned Star Trek optimism right about now. The new show can't come soon enough.
Goddamn
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  #8636  
Old 11-12-2016, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL View Post
Welp today's election day in the States and I needed something to keep my mind off the utter mess, so what was the next DS9 episode in line to watch?

Profit and Lace.

aaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuggghh, the timing


While it wasn't quite as dire as I was fearing, it's still easily the most cringe-worthy episode in DS9, quite probably the worst one overall too.


Though it was ALMOST all worth it for the Quark/Odo hug at the end. Almost.

Maybe if they actually had Quark learn something at the end like it was so very close to almost doing it might not have been so bad, but no, he snaps back to his old self begging for Oomox from one of his employees.

Which, uh, the episode started with him basically threatening to fire her for not being "nice" enough to him. Seems like the perfect lesson they could have had him learn after all of it. Guess not though!

Oh that wacky Quark!
It's an episode which has astonishingly managed to get more offensive with the passage of time. Back then it was mainly derided as awful sexist nonsense, but viewed through the lens of contemporary trans issues, the whole notion of Quark's gender swap being played for laffs comes across as an even worse idea than it was originally.
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  #8637  
Old 11-13-2016, 06:15 AM
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The Way To Eden is a very special Anti-Hippy episode. The Enterprise is called in to apprehend a bunch of space-hippies who are out joyriding in a stolen spaceship, and then turn them back over to their parents (this seems like it's really beneath Kirks paygrade). But these aren't regular hippies, but hippies with a sinister agenda, and they use their counter-culture attitudes and bad songs in an attempt to hijack the ship in an attempt to find a hippy paradise On the planet Eden where they can live at peace with nature and without dealing with things like spaceships or Romulans or whatever.

Anyway, their plan works better than I would have guessed, but it as well as they hoped, and they wind up on Eden anyway after a lot of malarkey. Then they find out that they really shouldn't have and they should have bothered to do even the tiniest bit of research on the planet they were Planning on immigrating to before moving in, since everything in the place is super poisonous to anything human-shaped, ad they're all dead or dying within a few minutes of touching down, and the head Hippy commits suicide by pear rather than being arrested.
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  #8638  
Old 11-13-2016, 07:05 AM
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Adam is Charles Napier, who, in later years, plays more hard-ass, general-type roles, including in Star Trek!

You might recognize him from scenes in the first two Austin Powers movies.


"Mr. President, are you suggesting blowing up the moon?"

"Would you miss it?"
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  #8639  
Old 11-13-2016, 07:25 AM
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You better recognize him as Duke Philips from The Critic.

He later showed back up on DS9 in one of the best Ferengi episodes "Little Green Men".
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  #8640  
Old 11-13-2016, 07:33 AM
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...Until I actually brought the voice back in my head, I never made the connection. Yep, it's totally Duke Phillips.
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